Spray and pray?

[wvfarrier]

These shots were fired at close contact. 17 rounds fired and only 2 connected. It doesnt specify how many each individual fired though.

https://www.breitbart.com/politics/...l-condition-after-shootout-with-armed-driver/

 

[Waveski]

Philadelphia -
750 carjackings in all of 2021
90 in the first 13 days of 2022

What a peaceful city. Milwaukee Wi , a smaller city an hour down the road from this keyboard had - get this -
10,000+ thefts & carjackings in 2021
300+in the first 13 days of 2022.

In this neck of the woods the gun possession charges associated with the crime are usually plea bargained away right off the bat , and charges reduced to "Driving a vehicle without owner's consent".

I guess , technically speaking , pointing a gun in the face of an innocent driver , dragging him/her out onto the street and making off with the car does fit the broad definition of driving without the owner's consent...

 

[Alex Clayton]

Well first glad to see the scum got shot. As for rounds fired it would be interesting to know who fired how many. Best "guess" would be the scum fired until he ran out of ammo or could no longer fire. Given few scum ever go to a range or have a carry gun. Most have whatever gun they happen to have at that time and have never practiced. Even better is if they hold it sideways since on TV this works
If the good guy only fired twice and both were hits? Kudos to him.

 

[armydog]

I hope the car jackee only fired 2 shots.

 

[Steve S.]

The reality of an armed confrontation is that there is no help, no law, no police, no Constitution, etc. - nothing but you and him - you are completely on your own. What must happen is that you get to stick your gun in his face before he can stick his gun in your face - at that moment in life and time, nothing else matters - you must be first.

 

[CDW4ME]

Take aways
One can't guarantee good hits or even hits when defending against attacker(s).
It takes on average 2 hits to incapacitate an (one) attacker; combine that with a police average of about 50% hits with "service" size pistols.
Using data (averages), we can conclude that it might be possible to fire 4 rounds (two hits / two misses) to incapacitate one attacker.
Entertain the possibility of two attackers and based on those same averages that would be 8 rounds for two attackers.
Using data (averages) and factoring the potential of two attackers, desirable for a carry gun to have 8 rounds before slide lock.
That 8 round desirable minimum applies regardless of location, anticipated threat, or feelings. Work clothes being an acceptable excuse for less.

 

[Hartkopf]

The reality of an armed confrontation is that there is no help, no law, no police, no Constitution, etc. - nothing but you and him - you are completely on your own. What must happen is that you get to stick your gun in his face before he can stick his gun in your face - at that moment in life and time, nothing else matters - you must be first.

Well said. Nobody can help you in the moment.


A while back someone posted a survey done of violent thugs. I think they had all killed someone and they all emphasized how important it was to shoot first. Not what caliber to use, what bullet design, barrel length, grip or stance, etc. Just shoot first. Obviously they did not care about the law or morals so I’m not advocating for everyone to “just shoot first.” I’m only posting this so average people might realize what we might be up against. Some criminals don’t just see the good guy’s gun and then run away.

Edit: So what to do about all of the above? Situational awareness x10. If we see “it” coming and can avoid a car jacking, nobody has to draw first or shoot first.

 

[Robert]

If we are going to continue to talk about crime stats and other off topic, however interesting it might be, parts of the story then I'll just close it now and save myself some time.

If we want to talk about shooting under stress and the importance of training, then by all means, have at it.

 

[lemaymiami]

How anyone will react under sudden life threatening stress... is a crapshoot in my opinion (in other words no one can predict the outcome at that time and that moment). That's why training and practice are imperative for anyone that wants to survive such an encounter (and also why if you have any choice in the matter - they should be avoided at all costs...).

At least that's what I observed in a 22 year career in law enforcement... Me, I'm hoping to live out my remaining years without being in any kind of armed confrontation ever again...

 

[trackskippy]

I think the problem here for most people is, they dont really practice at all for this sort of thing, at least in any sort of realistic way, and base their skills on shooting little groups at bullseye targets, or shooting cans in the yard, and really arent prepared to quickly draw, and shoot proactively and repetitively, and continue to do so until things stop.

How many are comfortable shooting under some kind of stress, with and without the sights, while they are moving, shooting targets that are moving too, from weird positions, etc.?

Considering that people who are trained and literally "qualified" seem to not have all that great a hit rate in these sorts of encounters, how well will you do, if you cant even pass a basic qualification course. And most of those courses really arent a very high bar to pass either, and Ive seen cops have troubles passing them.

There are a number of incidents of police getting into gunfights with just one person, and end up expending most, if not all of their ammo, and those that come out on the other side in a positive manner, all seem to up the number of rounds/guns they carry after that fact.

Yet, we are constantly told, all you need to solve the problems we might encounter will easily be solved with a 5 shot J frame.

Oh, and "spray and pray" isn't a function of the gun, its a function of the shooter.

 

[lemaymiami]

I learned through experience that the actual results of gunshot wounds are pretty random as well. One individual receives a minor wound and is down for the count without immediate medical intervention. The next individual is hit multiple times - and keeps coming, even with wounds that will eventually prove fatal.

My response? I learned to always bring a basic riot gun on any hot call that might possibly involve weapons. At close quarters it’s a one shot fight ender (under 15 meters). Better still most bad guys get real peaceful when they know that shotgun has them point blank… The best armed confrontation is the one where not a single shot is fired.

In fact I always figured that a pistol was what you relied on when you couldn’t get something more effective…

 

[Good Ol' Boy]

I think the problem here for most people is, they dont really practice at all for this sort of thing, at least in any sort of realistic way, and base their skills on shooting little groups at bullseye targets, or shooting cans in the yard, and really arent prepared to quickly draw, and shoot proactively and repetitively, and continue to do so until things stop.

How many are comfortable shooting under some kind of stress, with and without the sights, while they are moving, shooting targets that are moving too, from weird positions, etc.?

Considering that people who are trained and literally "qualified" seem to not have all that great a hit rate in these sorts of encounters, how well will you do, if you cant even pass a basic qualification course. And most of those courses really arent a very high bar to pass either, and Ive seen cops have troubles passing them.

There are a number of incidents of police getting into gunfights with just one person, and end up expending most, if not all of their ammo, and those that come out on the other side in a positive manner, all seem to up the number of rounds/guns they carry after that fact.

Yet, we are constantly told, all you need to solve the problems we might encounter will easily be solved with a 5 shot J frame.

Oh, and "spray and pray" isn't a function of the gun, its a function of the shooter.

I agree.

And while this isn't a popular opinion on this site I'm going to say it anyway, I think this is why competition shooters would fair quite a bit better than "guys that shoot at cans", or your average gun owner that doesn't shoot much.

I realize neither USPSA or IDPA advocate that the competition is "training", but it really is a type. Drawing, moving and shooting from crazy angles/positions, and the "stress" would be being on the clock AND the fact you're doing it in front of an audience. I personally prefer IDPA because of the more realistic course designs, at least in my area.

But I also realize that nothing, competition, LEO qualification, Gunsite courses or any other "training" can prepare you for a real gunfight. Outside of Military, LEO or civilians that have actually been in a gunfight.

That being said I believe my point stands. And its why I advocate for folks getting into competitive shooting.

 

[JohnKSa]

People just don't understand how hard it is to make hits in the real world. When you draw your compact/subcompact carry gun under duress from concealment, then move around in a vigorous and highly-motivated attempt to not get shot/killed and the other person is moving around under the same kind of motivation while you are both trying to get rounds downrange as quickly as you can, probably in less than ideal lighting conditions, it is COMPLETELY different from standing still, at the range, with perfect lighting, taking a good stance, getting a good grip on your full-sized pistol with both hands, aiming at a stationary, high-contrast target and firing at a leisurely pace.

I have seen people who can make easy hits at 25 yards consistently, TOTALLY MISS human-sized silhouettes at 3 yards when they are moving and not paying attention to their sights properly. I have seen instructors and competitors say the same thing--that people can miss even at bad breath distances when they get pressured by something as silly as the desire to shoot well, or maybe the duress of a stopwatch/timer and the desire to win a competition.

I watched one video of a police shooting where 2 officers and two criminals ended up in a gun battle that started out with everyone in a circle with maybe 2 yards diameter and NO ONE was hit. Because everyone was scrambling like crazy trying to not get killed, while shooting with one hand and maybe not even looking at their targets, etc. I've watched many others that started at very close ranges and had lots of rounds expended with no or few hits.

It is HARD to make hits when someone is trying to kill you and you are trying equally hard not to get killed. Misses are INEVITABLE.

 

[bullseye308]

Also, you can’t miss fast enough to make up the difference.

 

[Casefull]

Learn to point shoot. If you’re looking at it you’ll hit it and it’s fast. Within 10 yards the human body is a large target.

 

[JTHunter]

Would anybody care to bet that this perp's family will find an opportunistic "ambulance chaser" to sue the victim?

 

[lemaymiami]

Count on it... Particularly when the family finds out that life insurance policies are null and void if you're killed in the commission of a felony (at least that was my experience more than forty years ago now....).

 

[wvfarrier]

No doubt the ambulance chasers have already reached out to them

 

[Robert]

Oh well, since we don't actually want to talk about something that would be on topic I guess we are done here.