Squib Rant

[hdwhit]

I was on another reloading-related site and saw that two members had posted about having squibs in handloaded ammunition this week.

I then did a search here and found no fewer than six reports of squibs in ammunition members had loaded themselves over the past 90 days (rimfire problems, "almost a squib", "loads so light they might cause a squib", and malfunctioning factory ammunition were omitted from the count and I only counted a report of multiple squibs during a range session as a single squib).

That works out to about two squibs per month.

That struck me as kind of high; especially in view of how catastrophic a squib can be if not immediately recognized.

• Is this an aberration?
  
• Seasonal fluctuation (i.e. at the end of summer/early fall people take to the range so more shooting means more squibs)?
  
• Reporting bias (i.e. people are likely to report squibs while those who don't have them, don't report)?
  
• Or are reloading practices so poor that handloaders/reloaders as a group are routinely producing cartridges with no powder (or essentially no powder) in them?

And if it is the last one, is there anything we can do to raise awareness of the problem and get handloaders/reloaders to improve their procedures?

 

[LoonWulf]

I think one factor maybe that, at least here, there are alot more people new to guns and ammo etc, getting into reloading. A few years ago I was pretty much the only guy picking up the brass at our local ranges here, and almost everyone i talked to shot factory ammo, or had a friend who loaded for them...usually the same guy for a group.
Now almost everyone i talk to loads, or at least scrounges brass for someone else (which irritates (irrationally) me to no end...thats MY brass ). Alot of these guys shoot ars, or pistols etc with higher volumes of fire and for alot of them progressive presses are their FIRST reloading press.
Ive been loading for about 18 years or so, and i dont think ive ever forgoten to put powder in a case, on my single stage. On my progressive ive had a few times when ive forgoten to turn on the powder flow, or had a primer go in backwards...or not at all. Ive caught pretty much every oops so far, and if one is detected i pull the components from all of the ones before that (i load in batches), but even so in the few thousand round ive loaded on that press ive had a few go "click" on pulling the trigger.
which isnt a huge big deal for me, i just sit there to see if the gun goes off then take the gun apart and it goes back in the bag till i get home.

A lockout die would help with the missing powder, and its on my list.

 

[Blue68f100]

Normally like said new handloaders not familiar with the equipment and the process. Lack of attention to whats going on.

I had one when I switched to an AP early on. That was 15 yrs ago. Never had one up to that point. Haven't had once since.

It's not all about speed, how many you can make in a hr. Faster you go the more likely you are to create a problem. When loading rifle rounds on a AP you have to wait for the powder to finish dropping, not like doing a pistol.

 

[otisrush]

What strikes me first is a potential variant on your third bullet. I'll call it "Data Fidelity Bias". This is kind of a hot button of mine, so I acknowledge I may be looking for it to exist because I believe it exists and I like being right. With the internet in general, we're now able to learn of events that previously would have been either not reported at all or rolled into some analysis to determine whether the event was significant or not. We search for product reviews and find *30 people* who have complaints on this product. OMG there's no way I'm going to buy such a crappy product. But the fact that product sold N million units and only generated 30 bad reviews is an indicator of it being a great product. We find the bad, and don't hear about the good.

There also could be a variant where people feel especially comfortable reporting here about their squibs. Maybe it's an indication of this being a helpful place?

We all have processes that work for us - and they're not all the same. Maybe as a reloading community we need to encourage that our own processes be written down - maybe posted by our benches - so that we're reminded of what needs to be done when? Maybe this becomes one of the commonly-accepted practices most of us tend to have - ala "One bottle of powder on the bench at a time.". (For example, when doing pistol, I've decided to do final inspection for mouth cracks right after they exit the expanding die. I know that. And I do it. But it would be better if I had something in front of me that listed precisely what I expect to be doing at every phase. For others that wouldn't work since not everyone uses a single stage press like I do.) Some measure powder, drop it in the case, and seat the bullet immediately. For me I can't do it that way. For the way my brain works my chances of getting a squib would go up were I to use that process. I load a block and then look in the mouths for powder. That works for me. But for that guy who needs to seat a bullet with each powder drop - my process might be disastrous. To each their own.

 

[ATLDave]

IME, most squibs come from two groups of people:

1) Those trying to load significant volumes on a single stage press without a really rigorous mindset for checking every case every time.
2) People using a progressive press that lacks an auto-indexing/forwarding feature. Looking at you, Dillon 550.

Here's the thing. Reloading isn't rocket science - but it is NOT for everyone. Those of us who enjoy it and can do it with relative safety often want to encourage new folks... but not everyone is suited to it. It takes a particular mindset and level of OCD'ness that some people just do not have and/or cannot maintain.

 

[Kaldor]

IME, most squibs come from two groups of people:

1) Those trying to load significant volumes on a single stage press without a really rigorous mindset for checking every case every time.
2) People using a progressive press that lacks an auto-indexing/forwarding feature. Looking at you, Dillon 550.

Here's the thing. Reloading isn't rocket science - but it is NOT for everyone. Those of us who enjoy it and can do it with relative safety often want to encourage new folks... but not everyone is suited to it. It takes a particular mindset and level of OCD'ness that some people just do not have and/or cannot maintain.

For issue one, its a workflow issue that is easily avoided. Instead of dropping all the cases full of powder, you pick up primed case, drop powder into it and immediately seat the bullet. Pretty hard to screw that up.

For issue two. Youre exactly on the money.

Another issue is people going to fast on a progressive and just screwing up. I cap out at about 500 per hour with a case feeder on my LnL, I dont consider going faster to be safe. Ive had exactly one squib in the last 30k rounds Ive loaded on it.

 

[ATLDave]

For issue one, its a workflow issue that is easily avoided. Instead of dropping all the cases full of powder, you pick up primed case, drop powder into it and immediately seat the bullet. Pretty hard to screw that up.

There are all kinds of workflows that will work - if you do them every single time.

When I am loading in a single-stage fashion, I do what you describe. When I'm loading in large volumes, I use an auto-indexing press.

Not to bring bad luck on myself, but I've loaded a lot of rounds over the last ~7 years.... with zero squibs ever. I consider a squib a totally unacceptable event.

 

[Kaldor]

There are all kinds of workflows that will work - if you do them every single time.

When I am loading in a single-stage fashion, I do what you describe. When I'm loading in large volumes, I use an auto-indexing press.

Not to bring bad luck on myself, but I've loaded a lot of rounds over the last ~7 years.... with zero squibs ever. I consider a squib a totally unacceptable event.

Same here Dave. I consider a squib to be an unacceptable event. I can pin point exactly what my cause was too. I had my powder measure pop up off the bushing in my LnL for 1 round. I thought I caught it. My M&P Pro found it though

 

[rg1]

I suspect some of the squibs are due to components not matching. Too slow powder, an undersized bullet, dies not sizing thin walled cases enough for good bullet tension, poor crimps on magnum pistol calibers, and using tiny charges of fast burning powder in large cases. I would bet a few are caused by contamination from oils or sizing lube in cases or even media blocking flash holes.

 

[hdwhit]

ATLDave wrote:
Reloading isn't rocket science - but it is NOT for everyone.

Agreed.

I have several friends that shoot - in some cases, a lot - and while most of them are surprised to find that I'm a reloader, when I offer to introduce them to the hobby, you would think I had just asked them about their religious faith journey. In all fairness, most of them are too over-stretched with work and family obligations to devote the kind of time it takes to learn it and do it right. And the one guy who does have the time I've kind of discouraged since I think his attitude is too cavalier to do it safely.

 

[hdwhit]

Kaldor wrote:
For issue one, its a workflow issue that is easily avoided. Instead of dropping all the cases full of powder, you pick up primed case, drop powder into it and immediately seat the bullet. Pretty hard to screw that up.

I used to do that and it worked well - so long as I didn't get interrupted.

The procedure I now use is to fill all cases in the block(s); usually these are batches of 12, 25, 50 or 100, tilt the block to about a 45 degree angle, shake the block gently to level and distribute the powder and using an an automobile trouble light held well above and slightly to the side of the block, inspect all the cases for the presence of powder and consistency in the size of the shadow cast by the light. At an angle, the eye can easily catch even small variations in the size/shape of the shadow and this allows for the inspection of not only the presence of powder, but also that the charge is not materially smaller or larger than the others in the batch.

 

[someguy2800]

I've had two no powders that I can remember, neither of which left the case. Had one fail to ignite the powder, that I think was from a drop of water left in a case that was loaded. That went an inch into the barrel on a 357.

 

[hdwhit]

rg1 wrote (in part):
I suspect some of the squibs are due to components not matching... [and] ...a few are caused by contamination from oils or sizing lube in cases or even media blocking flash holes.

All of these are potential causes of failure that are easily addressed by the reloader establishing procedures (preferably written - more preferably a written checklist that must be completed every time) to account for these things.

Personally, I don't think media in a flash hole presents a big problem. Lead Styphnate, the compound in most primers, is a high explosive with an explosive wavefront of about 16,000 fps. In the case of one of the squibs I read about in preparing for this post, the primer along had enough of a kick to drive a 125 grain bullet out of an empty case, across the cylinder gap, through the forcing cone and an inch into the barrel of the pistol. I don't think a piece of walnut or corn cob would really interfere with that starting the powder to burning. But, if I'm wrong and it does, then inspecting that the flash holes are clean before priming could go on that written checklist.

 

[hdwhit]

ATLDave & Kaldor to the same effect, wrote:
I consider a squib a totally unacceptable event.

I agree.

I've been loading for more than 40 years (2 years with original Lee Loader, 38+ with RCBS single stage press) and I have not had a squib so far. But, the written reloading procedures and associated checklist that I developed nearly 4 decades ago - and constantly refine - includes no fewer than three specific, separate visual checks for the presence of powder in the case and that is the result of accumulated experience in which "could have been a squib" cases were caught at the last moment. So far, three checks has proven adequate.

And I recognize that for loaders who use progressive presses the challenges are greater, but to paraphrase SpiderMan, "With great capacity comes great responsibility". Still, I would regard the first squib a loader has to be a "wake up call". A second squib should have klaxons going off in the loader's head. Beyond that, it might be a good idea to put an empty lane between you and that guy at the range.

 

[hdwhit]

otisrush wrote:
I'll call it "Data Fidelity Bias".

I won't argue with what you choose to call it. And, yes, the internet allows such reports to reach a wider audience and sites like this one may be seen as a "safe" place to admit a problem, so reporting may be greater than in the past.

Still, it seems to me that the absolute number of handloaders/reloaders reporting squibs is surprisingly high and while I have no objective data to say one way or the other, started making me wonder if this was a reporting issue or an indication that we've got fellow loaders out there that need additional education and training.

 

[hdwhit]

LoonWolf wrote:
...(which irritates (irrationally) me to no end...thats MY brass)...

When I was younger (and had more expenses and less income than today), I treated every case as if it was gold, so I know exactly what you're talking about. Today, I can afford to pay 2 cents for 9mm brass, 3 cents a piece for 223 brass or even 6 cents each for 45 ACP brass, so unless I'm the only person on the field that reloads, I leave the brass to others.

Besides, it saves me having the bend down and risk not being able to get back up on my own.

 

[Rule3]

Well the information (if you can call it that is skewed)

First it is the "internet"

The posters may or may not know what the heck they are doing

The results are not a statistical valid sample of anything as no one knows what they did.

Kinda like when a KBOOM is reported and everyone GUESSES why it happened, despite best intentions no one really knows.

I only worry about my own loads.

The NRA defines a squib, as a under powered load, it does not have to stick in the barrel.

I myself would rather a squib than a overcharge KBOOM!

 

[Jack B.]

I can't tell you how many times I've seen pictures and video's of peoples reloading setups and in the video or photograph , there on the bench is a can of beer. You are a fool if you mix alcohol and reloading. You are going to get squibs IMO.

 

[hdwhit]

Jack B. wrote:
You are a fool if you mix alcohol and reloading.

In my written reloading procedures, I use the same standard as the FAA applies to pilots.

Federal Aviation Regulations
Sec. 91.17 — Alcohol or drugs.
(a) No person may act or attempt to act as a crewmember of a civil aircraft—
(1) Within 8 hours after the consumption of any alcoholic beverage;...​

 

[berettaprofessor]

ME, most squibs come from two groups of people:

You forgot the third group; new reloaders who started when components were tight and had to make do with unusual powders and bullets till the scarcity eased up. I started at the height of "I can't find powder or bullets" and I learned with IM7625 and 700X for every pistol caliber I loaded. Couldn't find rifle powder for awhile at all. Try finding proven loads for those in combination with a specific variety of plated bullet or two. So I had some squibs as I worked up loads, but I WAS aware of the increased possibilities and watching for them. Haven't had any since I got hold of more commonly used powders (HP38, Win231, Benchmark, etc) and I'm not starting from guesswork every time I work up a load.

Reporting bias (i.e. people are likely to report squibs while those who don't have them, don't report)?

Not only that, but imagine that at least some high percentage of squibs are reported, particularly by new reloaders, while the millions of "un-squibs" are not. Yes, I had a few squibs (maybe 3-4) starting out as noted above. I don't know without adding up my reloading logs how many rounds I've loaded now in 4 or 5 years, but I'm well into the thousands if not the tens of thousands. Spread that over a bunch of experienced reloaders and squibs may be 0.00001% for all we know. There are a lot of rounds that go down range and once in a while, the odds catch up with us.

 

[someguy2800]

It happens, especially loading progressive or turret style. Take it as a sign you need to pay more attention to what your doing. Squib loads are carelessness. Shooting a loaded round behind it is another level of stupidity

 

[Nature Boy]

And I recognize that for loaders who use progressive presses the challenges are greater,

Unless your progressive press has a powder check station

 

[ATLDave]

I've been loading for more than 40 years (2 years with original Lee Loader, 38+ with RCBS single stage press) and I have not had a squib so far. But, the written reloading procedures and associated checklist that I developed nearly 4 decades ago - and constantly refine - includes no fewer than three specific, separate visual checks for the presence of powder in the case and that is the result of accumulated experience in which "could have been a squib" cases were caught at the last moment. So far, three checks has proven adequate.

The vast majority of my loading has been on a Lee classic turret. I crank along at a merry old pace. Which, frankly, helps maintain the consistency of my process. It's just muscle memory.

When I have to slow down for rifle rounds loaded in batch processing, my hands sweat... there's so much more opportunity for error. I cannot imagine trying to check a written list while I was doing that!

 

[ATLDave]

It happens, especially loading progressive or turret style.

My observation is that they usually come from folks with single-stage presses or non-indexing progressives. Turrets and auto-indexing progressives (as long as the latter has a powder check) are among the least likely to crank out squibs... because more of the operation is automatic. Human error is nearly always the problem. The less the human is doing....

 

[Damon555]

2) People using a progressive press that lacks an auto-indexing/forwarding feature. Looking at you, Dillon 550.

I agree with your first point but am not sure of the second. The way I see it the lack of an auto-indexing function makes it much easier to check each case.....and if I do catch a problem with the powder charge (which I never have on my 550b) there's no fiddling around with the turret to get that case back in position to charge. It may be a little more labor intensive but I prefer to advance the shell plate myself when I'm ready for it to move.....not when it wants to.....

In my 20+ years of reloading I have only had 2 of my hand-loaded rounds malfunction and they were both dead primers. I am very meticulous and won't proceed until I'm 100% sure that #1 Each case has been charged and #2 that each case has been charged properly.

Some of these new reloader threads make me cringe to think that these guys might be shooting next to me at the range.....I'm lucky to have had a real person teach me the ropes. There's no substitute for hands-on instruction from someone who knows what they are doing.

Hopefully I didn't just jinx myself....I loaded up 150 44 specials today and I fully expect them to perform as intended.