Squib removal via charged case?

[Steve Koski]

I've heard of this, but am not sure if it is reasonably safe:

If you have a squib and put a bullet part way down a barrel, take a charged, primed case (no bullet). Carefully chamber it, keeping the powder charge in place, then fire to push the bullet out of the bore.

In principle it seems safe, you have a normal powder charge, and one bullet (in the bore). But it is unusual/different for sure.

Questions:

1) Is there any generally accepted advice on this method? Works fine or dangerous, don't do it?

2) Have you actually done it? Tell me the story, please.

3) Does the advice change from rifle rounds to handgun rounds?

Thanks,

Koski

 

[Carl N. Brown]

If the bullet is far enough down the barrel, you could end up with a bulge in the barrel when the pressure reaches the bullet. If you are lucky.

We had a death locally when a teenager fired a .50 muzzleloader with the bullet not seated on top of the powder charge. It's like a shockwave rushing down the barrel and striking the bullet and bouncing back on the incoming pressure. The breech of the gun failed causing a fatal head injury.

 

[rcmodel]

+1

The only safe way to dislodge a stuck bullet is with a brass rod & a hammer.

Never ever try to "shoot it out".

rc

 

[fguffey]

'don't do it'!!!!!



It is a waste of time to have someone consider 'time as being a factor' but I am the fan of the running start, when the trigger is pulled I want my bullets to have a chance to have a jump start before hitting the rifling, if the bullet is in the barrel at or past the forcing, it is an obstruction. If you are talking about a slide action type pistol the slide could have move before the bullet, with a revolver do not forget the gap between the cylinder and barrel.



Again, I have been at the firing range when the person next to me was doing everything they could pull the trigger, lucky for us standing on each side of him the bullet stuck between the cylinder and forcing cone, he could not rotate the cylinder or pull the trigger, nor could he swing the cylinder out, he needed us.



Had the bullet traveled past the forcing cone he would have had an obstruction, had he done a better job of loading the next round than he did the one with out powder he could have rendered his pistol scrap.

F. Guffey

 

[wingman]

Kroil oil, rod,hammer only way to remove squib,lots of kroil oil.

 

[mckey]

Why take the chance of blowing your barrel apart......Brass squid rod is your friend.I never go to the range without one and carry a couple in my range bag.

[/IMG]

 

[rfwobbly]

I've knocked out 2 or 3 squibs from various handguns and "slugged" the barrel on several rifles all using wooden dowels and steady pressure. From start to finish it didn't take 2 minutes for any of them.

I don't see the big "savings" for what has to be a very high risk.

 

[rcmodel]

Better yet, don't load squibs in the first place, and you won't need a range rod.

I have never had a squib in 50 years of reloading, unless I intended it to be one during testing to see the effects of no powder.

If you follow good reloading safety practices 100%, squibs don't happen.

rc

 

[kingmt]

I'm with the I don't suggest it crowed just because it doesn't sound like a good idea but to tell you the truth I have no idea. What I believe is if there is a failure it would be in the barrel because it is weaker or back through the action because the pressure didn't seal the case. I would hope the barrel went myself.

If it was to work I would think it would be a light charge of very fast powder because I don't believe slow powder would get up to pressure because of all the air room. Are you sure the story doesn't have a wax plug in it? Again I wouldn't do it myself but if you give it a try please turn on a camera that way if you don't make it we can find out on the news it won't work. if it works great you will have proof that it does.

 

[Steve Koski]

OK. Thanks guys. Sounds like this is a bad/unsafe idea.

It differs significantly from a regular firing event, as the bullet is already locked into the lands & grooves and doesn't start from the normal position; free, and near the powder charge.

I've never loaded a squib either, except for the two I made intentionally. But they don't count. I'm a 100% er. It was just a hypothetical question. I've heard the idea, but never discussed it.

Thanks again,

Koski

 

[brickeyee]

I've knocked out 2 or 3 squibs from various handguns and "slugged" the barrel on several rifles all using wooden dowels and steady pressure.

Until the dowel breaks in the bore and jams in tight from the blow that broke it.

Us a correct rod.

The rods are NOT just plain ol stock brass that is normally sold as dead soft.

They are hardened to at least 'half hard' and 3/4 or fully hard is even better.

A dead soft brass rod will start to mushroom from just a few hammer blows.

A 'dead blow' hammer makes the job a lot easier.

 

[jmorris]

No, no, no, no. Never do that.

 

[Grumulkin]

As usual, many theories but no first hand experience with a lot of predictions of dire consequences. Firing a cartridge with the bullet engaging the lands isn't dangerous as long as the powder charge is lowered a bit.

I'll grant that one should be selective in the method one chooses to dislodge a stuck bullet depending on the gun and the specific situation. My experience involves the single squib load I ever had. I neglected to put any powder in a primed 375 H&H Magnum case. Though the bullet was stuck in the barrel, it didn't go very far. I took another primed 375 H&H Magnum case, put a lesser charge of powder in it and uneventfully shot the bullet out of the barrel.

Now to venture into ground I've never tread. I would probably treat the situation differently with a gun without as strong an action as the one I was using. Also, there is a big difference in the amount of energy (a.k.a. pressure) needed to start a bullet fully engaged in the bore as with a partial powder charge compared with a bullet that has just started to engage the lands. Though I can't say what would happen in a less strong gun or with a fully engage bullet, I can say in those examples, I wouldn't try to shoot the bullet out of the bore.

 

[kingmt]

Was it lead or jacketed? How heavy was the bullet? Can you give a percentage value to lesser charge? What powder?

Sorry for highjacking but this just got interesting.

 

[Walkalong]

A brass rod is easy and safe. In my testing powder forward loads and light loads I have suck some bullets partway down the barrel. I would not use a charged case for that considering the air space in between. Don't know if it would be a problem, but I just use the brass rod.

I have done it with a bullet that was just forward of the chamber in a .45 ACP. When I did my how low can it go test, I brought a primed case and 5.0 Grs of W-231 along, understanding I would end up with a stuck bullet.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=523172

 

[gamestalker]

I don't know where you heard of such a method, but no matter, do not do it!! As already stated above, it can and probably will, create a mass of unpredictable pressure in the barrel, back into the action, and every where else you don't want uncontrolled and unpredictable pressures. Also of concern, is the characteristic of the powder burn. The resulting pressure of a powder charge/burn are only predictable to the extent of the data when they are used in a determined or prescribed manner, which would be in the confines of the case with the bullet seated.

 

[Grumulkin]

Was it lead or jacketed? How heavy was the bullet? Can you give a percentage value to lesser charge? What powder?

Sorry for highjacking but this just got interesting.

If I remember correctly, it was a 270 gr. jacketed Speer. I know it was a jacketed something; could have been Sierra and could have been a 300 grainer. I dropped the load by 2 or 3 grains of RL-15 from my full house load.

 

[wanderinwalker]

While I've never tried it and will fall into the camp of DON'T TRY IT, I think the comparison to a black-powder load is incorrect.

When using blackpowder, there can be no airspace ahead of the charge. With a muzzleloader, this means putting the bullet directly on the powder charge. In the case of a BP cartridge, you either have a case full of powder or fillers to take up the empty space. I understand it that BP is a low-grade explosive and any gap between the charge and projectile effectively creates an obstructed-bore situation, with unfortunate consequences.

On the other hand, smokeless powder is routinely used in less-than-100% casefill situations. You won't find any .38 Special loads with the powder all the way to the base of the bullet. (If you do, please warn me so I don't stand next to you when you shoot them...) Likewise in many highpower rifle rounds, if you shake the loaded cartridge it's not unusual to hear the powder shift inside. My understanding of this is because smokeless has a more progressive burning rate, that air space does not create and obstructed-bore scenario.

Maybe this is one for the Mythbusters...

 

[kingmt]

Thanks. It seams the opposite then I was thinking or maybe it is just way to easy to get to work. The pressure would have to be very low in that.

 

[MrSpiffy]

I think the biggest issue you would have here is that the squib is caught in the rifling, whereas a new round isn't even touching (or is just barely touching) the lands of the rifling. The bullet may expand slightly due to pressure behind it, causing a nice seal against the rifling to get the bullet spinning properly. Prior to this, the bullet is practically free to slide with little friction whatsoever. Static friction is a beast to overcome, compared to dynamic (or kinetic) friction where the object is already sliding in motion. In other words, because the bullet is lodged in the barrel, it requires more force to get it started down the barrel again, compared to a new round that is not lodged in the barrel.

The other issue deals with pressure, that some have already stated. Just as with a muzzle-loader, a cartridge has the powder right behind the bullet, with little or no air space. Any small air gap isn't really a big deal, as the bullet is initially free to go forward with little or no friction holding it back. And the pressure builds steadily as the powder combusts, pushing the bullet out of the barrel in a nice, fluid motion. But with a squib, you have a large air gap between the charge and the bullet. This means that the bullet doesn't gradually increase in speed as the powder burns. But that a powerful, high-speed shockwave of gases will hit the lodged bullet in a virtually explosive manner. To use a car analogy here... a loaded round is like a car whose bumper is in contact with another car's bumper. You can accelerate the rear vehicle and gradually push the second car up to speed with little or no damage to the cars. But if you start farther away and get up to speed before hitting the other car, you're in for a world of hurt! THAT is what you are risking in this case.

Best-case, you may actually dislodge the bullet successfully. If that happened to you, you got lucky. Worst-case is the barrel blows and hits someone with shrapnel, or the bolt comes exploding out of the gun, causing serious injury or death. This is one I will NEVER attempt, if I am aware of an obstruction. It's almost as bad as shooting another loaded round down the barrel to clear it out.

/I'm no expert, but my background is in Mechanical Engineering, with some understanding of engines and combustion.

 

[1SOW]

Bad idea. Assuming you didn't point the muzzle straight up, the powder is going to "level out" as you lower the barrell downrange. So "part" of the powder may end up in your chamber headspace /barrel and thinned out considerably.

It would be anyone's guess as to what might happen at this stage.

Use a wood or brass rod. It's safe and simple to do.

 

[Jim Watson]

As rcmodel says, if you put powder in each and every cartridge, you won't stick a bullet.

Unfortunately, we can't make the FACTORIES do 100% inspection. Seems like I have seen more Internet Reports of stuck bullets and otherwise defective factory loads since the shortages early in the present administration.

A brass or coated steel rod is best. You can drive out a stuck bullet with a wooden dowel... usually. When it doesn't work, a splintered stick in the barrel is a much worse obstruction than just a clean bullet.


Hatcher did a lot of work with barrel obstructions and describes his work in Hatcher's Notebook. He could usually shoot them out with a reduced powder charge... usually.
Jim K says it works, see a previous discussion at:
http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-284884.html

 

[kingmt]

I think the car bumper theory may work great with 2 bullets traveling down the barrel but with just a charged case the barrel would become part of the chamber. One of my concerns would be that the barrel wouldn't take the pressure of the shock wave. Normally the pressure is decreasing as it goes down the barrel. Just my thoughts but I think a heavy varmint barrel would be fine. Another thought would be since the case isn't sealed to accept the whole blast that it might not seal the chamber.

 

[Steve Koski]

Jim,

Thanks a bunch for the links & background.

I like hearing real experience, rather than just conjecture.

Koski

 

[Fishslayer]

Bad idea. Assuming you didn't point the muzzle straight up, the powder is going to "level out" as you lower the barrell downrange. So "part" of the powder may end up in your chamber headspace /barrel and thinned out considerably.

It would be anyone's guess as to what might happen at this stage.

Use a wood or brass rod. It's safe and simple to do.

While it's usually associated with underfilled bottleneck rifle cartridges and slow powder, I wouldn't rule out possible detonation if the powder got spread out.

Yup, anybody's guess what could happen, and most of them are bad.