St. Louis Mayor and Police Officers Shot 2/7

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Have any of you actually been to meetings?

Have any of you actually been to city council meetings?

I have. They often don't have a great civil rights policy. Sure, they have it in writing, but using it in practice is a very different thing. There was one some time back about doing outside business during council meetings in LA.

One of my experiences was when people questioned council members, the "official minutes" often were different when published. People then brought recorders in. Then, when questioned on discrepancies, they then had proof the city was changing things. The city then banned the use of recorders in meetings.

I could tell true stories, like when the Mayor got arrested for harassing a local luxury builder...
 
a1abdj,

That's new info, I haven't seen that Kirkwood got annexed, then the problems started. Makes sense though.


Bogie,


See: http://www.stltoday.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=5346346 (page 4)

herb11 said:
Its soon, but I have to weigh in on this one.

First, I am not a kirkwood resident, but live in a nearby and very similar municipality, and I am an in a profession that often times forces me to attend these city meetings, including kirkwood. I am also permitted to carry a concealed weapon.

Firstly, while I carry 4 out of 5 work days, I always leave my weapon locked in the truck when I attend these municipal meetings, its the law, and I do not want to jeopardize my right or others right to carry by violating this law. That being said, had I been there, I would/could have reduced the fatalities, its part of the concealed carry training; you stay vigilant.

Unfortunately, I most likely would have been either A) mistaken as the assailant and shot by the police, and/or B) lost my permit for carrying/using in a government building and could have left myself open to being prosecuted for murder (someone losing their life while I was in the process of committing a crime by carrying).

Cookie probably was not concerned with attendees carrying concealed weapons, partly because most people do not carry, because it is illegal to carry there, etc. but mostly because he was prepared to die.

On a second topic, having dealt with Kirkwood before, but not knowing cookie or the specifics of his case. . . .and being considerate that this level of violence is inexcusable for whatever wrong. . . I expect that some truths will come out over the next several weeks.

Ask anyone in development, contracting, zoning, architectural, etc. and they will tell you that Kirkwood is practically socialist. The authorities within Kirkwood think that it is their right to tell you what you can plant, what you can build, what you can paint, where/how you can park, when you can open for business etc. etc. etc. more than any other municipality. There are far too many busy-bodies within the community that feel it is their right to tell you what you can do to your property or within their view. Its sick.

I expect that what will be discovered is that Cookie was, indeed, singled out for poor treatment from Kirkwood and their powers. I, like one of the other posters, assumed that the assailant was a white man when i first heard the news, so I do not believe that Kirkwood was racially motivated, though they do "find" an awful lot of "violations" within meechum park. . . .

He exhausted his legal remedies, though I'm told he would have been successful if he used a competent attorney in any of his cases, and he became fed up. There is no excuse for his actions, but I believe it will come out that his plight is a similar plight felt by hundreds of other home and business owners in Kirkwood. The heavy hand of the busy bodies in and close to kirkwood government is socialist and corrupt, there are only so many ways to fight the system.

Lastly, I am sick and tired of the sanctimonious Kirkwood Residents who snobbily defend their city and insult others. Within the last three years, you have had considerable racial tension, brought on by city policies and culminating in multiple deaths, a child molester bring national news to our town, a contractor go ballistic based on being wronged and an accused (but thankfully acquitted) child molesting priest represented as the "grief counselor" to the community during the aftermath. You are not just in the same shape as the rest of the municipalities, you are worse.

If someone far away were to tune into national news and pay attention to the stories that have come out of Kirkwood, they would believe that Kirkwood was the Compton of St. Louis.


It still doesn't excuse this man, but it sure adds some clarity to how this happened.
Honestly, if people want to stop seeing stories like this others have to stop meddling in the affairs of others.

Okay, I'm done. Nothing else to see right now, we'll have to wait for more of the pieces of the puzzle to come together.

Personally, I honestly don't know what I would do in this man's situation. It's easy to vilify him and write him off as some kook. But if I had thousand, if not tens or even hundreds of thousands of dollars in fines hanging over my head. The imminent threat of a catastrophe destroying my business, my home. And I had been living with this for over ten years. And finally no legal recourse. Well, I can't honestly say how I would handle such a situation. Go nuts? Assume the fetal position and wait to die? I shudder to contemplate such a fate...
 
Heh, close AC.

That may be the denotation of the word, the connotation is "bullet". At least in East Africa. With as many countries as there are in Africa, never mind the numerous tribes I could not say whether this is true of all of Africa.

I have many Kenyan friends (in fact was shooting with a Missionary a few weeks ago) and they gave me this name.

PM me if you have more questions.
 
Thing is, Kirkwood sees itself as an upper-tier community. Old houses, but old money, and some pretty darn decent property values throughout. They've achieved this by being VERY nutso regarding zoning, etc., and since most of the residents intend to RESIDE there rather than WORK there, they are NOT amenable to business. The shooter obviously did not get the message, and did not get with the program.

What would YOU do if a guy parks an asphalt truck in front of your $250,000 house (in this area, you're looking at 3 bedrooms, 2 baths, basement, etc., etc...), each and every night?
 
Well, this guy knew he was wading into a well-armed place anyway. With numerous police officers present, firearms were already there. This guy did not plan to come out alive. As the saying goes about the impossibility of stopping an assassin who does not care about surviving.

Considering the police station is in the adjacent building.
 
Ask anyone in development, contracting, zoning, architectural, etc. and they will tell you that Kirkwood is practically socialist. The authorities within Kirkwood think that it is their right to tell you what you can plant, what you can build, what you can paint, where/how you can park, when you can open for business etc. etc. etc. more than any other municipality. There are far too many busy-bodies within the community that feel it is their right to tell you what you can do to your property or within their view. Its sick.

As a contractor who has dealt with Kirkwood I can tell you this is 100% accurate.
 
News reported that the killer was a resident of Meacham Park. That area was a slum area during the 1960's when I grew up in Kirkwood, and was populated solely by extremely poor black families who had no place else to go. It was considered to be an extremely unsafe place to enter, and even police patrols there were cautious. Most of the kids that got in trouble at schools were from that neighborhood. They tended to be violent, and I witnessed a knife fight at the high school between a couple of Meacham Park residents. The law (and police) was considered to be the enemy by a lot of the residents.

The killer was violating zoning laws, and amassing fines he could not or would not pay. He knew he was doing wrong, and chose to fight the law rather than comply. He intended to sue the city and get a huge amount of money for his "civil rights" being violated, but the courts disagreed. He brought the problems upon himself, by setting himself above the law, and abusing the rights of others in the process. He apparently thought that the city owed him contracts for street paving in his neighborhood, that were instead given to competing companies.

Kirkwood like many areas has changed tremendously over the last 40 years. It was a quiet residential community when I was growing up there, and there was a small downtown business area. Now every major road is lined for miles with businesses and commercial establishments. There is no shortage of places to legally park commercial vehicles. For the killer to continue to park commercial vehicles in residential areas in violation of zoning laws, was a provocation of the local authorities; it was an attempt to thwart the law and set himself up as superior to all of those who subject themselves to the law. It goes back to the attitude that seemed to be prevalent in the Meacham Park neighborhood during the last 30 to 40 years; the law is the enemy, and authority is to be defied.
 
What would YOU do if a guy parks an asphalt truck in front of your $250,000 house (in this area, you're looking at 3 bedrooms, 2 baths, basement, etc., etc...), each and every night?

The thing is the guy was not parking his truck in front of $250K houses, nor was he parking them in Kirkwood. Everybody seemed to like this guy, and I haven't heard of anyone (other than the city) complaining about his trucks.

He was parking his trucks there before Kirkwood annexed Mecham Park. Mecham Park existed seperate from Kirkwood, and has always been known as "that" part of town. Kirkwood decided to annex the unicorporated area and clean it up.
 
On top of it all, the brother goes on record as saying that this was "an act of war" and that he went to war as "a one man army". I don't know if that is the kind of thing I'd be saying in the wake of this type of thing.

I don't know the story, but I live in a moderate sized town and have seen what petty things councils and cities do to "punish" (my word persecute) someone that they perceive as a nuisance/threat. It might push the right button with the wrong person.
 
Bogie said:
What would YOU do if a guy parks an asphalt truck in front of your $250,000 house (in this area, you're looking at 3 bedrooms, 2 baths, basement, etc., etc...), each and every night?

It's funny you should phrase it like that, 'cause it turns out that there is a guy who has been parking a tractor trailer with a bulldozer / paver rig on it in front of his and my house for about the last month. And the house sizes and prices aren't all that far off. And it never even occurred to me to call the police to come bother him about it, because I'm not a bloody busybody, and I leave my neighbors alone.

One of Many said:
For the killer to continue to park commercial vehicles in residential areas in violation of zoning laws, was a provocation of the local authorities; it was an attempt to thwart the law and set himself up as superior to all of those who subject themselves to the law. It goes back to the attitude that seemed to be prevalent in the Meacham Park neighborhood during the last 30 to 40 years; the law is the enemy, and authority is to be defied.

When the law is unjust, the law is the enemy. Just because some knuckle under to usurped authority, doesn't mean all will. Rebellion to Tyrants is Obedience to God.
 
Well, I'm just glad I don't live inside 270 any more... There's going to be some random "black rage" crimes going on for a while...

I just know I bought out here in Wentzville, because I couldn't afford a suburb like Kirkwood...
 
I have a feeling that shootings like this are some of the first shots fired in a coming war...

This shooting could've been avoided had the government butted out of this man's life...

And it looks to me like he even pursued his legal alternatives for redress, and when that failed. He chose to step down from his soapbox and open up the cartridge box...

I'm not saying he was justified, but as government encroaches further and further into our lives, and more and more abandons the constitution that was supposed to protect us from tyrrany, more shootings of this type WILL occur

Agreed. To me it looks as if the city govt went out of their way to create a Carl Drega and some of them who are at least partially responsible are getting dirt shoveled on them for their troubles.

Considering what they were harrassing him for, I can't say I feel any sympathy for them.
 
OK.... I'm going to put my foot in this.

I'm not calling any THR members out as justifying this, but there ARE some comments that border on it.

I'm as freedom loving as the next guy, so I've spent a day or so pondering this situation. I think I've come to a position.

First, In NO WAY was this a justifiable act. Not in practice, not in theory, not academically speaking.


I'll explain. Let's first look at the material facts leading to this tragedy.

From what I have been seeing on Foxnews:

The man lived in a residental neighborhood
The man was parking industrial equipment on the street in front of his house.
This was a violation of the ordanances in that neighborhood.
The man received something to the tune of 150 parking tickets for it.
He has expressed his grievances to the town counsel numerous times.
The fine for the tickets was waived, but not taken off the "record."
The man wanted more from the town counsel.
The man was upset that the counsel did not wish to discuss the matter further.
The man chooses to kill these people.


OK... so lets examine some of these facts...

I am unsure if the parking ordanances existed PRIOR to his moving into that neighborhood. However, they have the ordanance at the desire of those residents of that neighborhood.

As much as he has rights, so do his neighbors. He does NOT have the right to impose himself onto them. Neighborhoods exist beyond each neighbor's home. They create an environment and appearance that they all want. If this ONE neighbor wanted otherwise, he should not have moved into that neighborhood, or he should have sought to move into an unincorporated area.

When I was house-hunting in FL, I was dismayed by the restrictive rules many communities had over what you could and could not do with your property. You know what I did? I looked for a house where this WASN'T the case. One person does not have the right to move into everyone else's nest and start kicking things around. Go be by yourself if you can't play nice with the neighbors.


Next, I find it AMAZING that the town counsel WOULD waive the fee for the tickets. In my opinion, they shouldn't have. He knew the laws. He CHOSE to break them, and then he claimed he was being discriminated against. No... he wasn't... every OTHER person who operates within the law was being discriminated against because he got SPECIAL treatment.

But that was not enough for him. He wanted the record of his violations removed. What purpose did that serve? It wasn't going to affect his insurance due to being a parking violation. No... he wanted to "stick it" to them. He WANTED a conflict. He wanted to see how far he could push in an effort to "cow" them.

When they drew a line in the sand, he answered it with violence.


This is NOT about "government tyranny." Please stop pretending otherwise. This was about a person wanting to be ABOVE others and impose himself on others. This was a SELFISH man who had no respect for anyone but himself.


I am DISGUSTED with the justifications being made for him in the media, and I am appauled that it would even be implied that the victims were -- in any way-- guilty of bringing this on.


-- John
 
coming war?

Trust me,theres no war coming.People are too lazy to even register to vote let alone trying to overthrow a Government with far superior numbers and weapons.Talking out of frustration is one thing,actually doing it is something else.:)
 
First, In NO WAY was this a justifiable act. Not in practice, not in theory, not academically speaking.
YOU were not the one being victimized. YOU were not the one facing numerous issues with this particular council, nor were YOU the one who had your last attempt at petitioning for redress of grievance thrown out by a man in a black robe who said the governments interests were more important than any of your rights. YOU are not the one to say whether this action was in any way justifiable or not. Just me academically speaking.

I am DISGUSTED with the justifications being made for him in the media, and I am appauled that it would even be implied that the victims were -- in any way-- guilty of bringing this on.
What would YOU do if YOU were in that situation? Let me guess, YOU would never be in that situation because you'd be a good subject and do what the overlords tell you to do?
 
Justified Killing?

Ok let's look at the other side of this coin.If some feel this guy was justified in killing people because the local government would not give in to him,then maybe some of his neighbors would have been justified in killing him?After all,they had continuously complained of his parking his equipment on the street and even though he was ticketed numerous times he still refused to comply.What other choice would the neighbors have?Government could not make him do what the neighbors wished him to do,therefore they were not allowed to live in peace.Hey,lets all just kill eachother like they do in 3rd world countries?:banghead:
 
Wow. So a elected city council enforcing zoning laws are tyrannical overlords? My precious civil right to park my industrial truck in front of my house is worth murdering for? Even "collateral damage" in the form of the cops is OK? How about the neighbors who reported his truck, are they fair game as well, as agents of the overlords?

Just so you can call him another nutjob who will get our rights taken away??? That does nothing either.

I will call him another nutjob.
 
I'm not making excuses for this guy, but I don't think you guys are getting the zoning issue. Let me give you a different example.

My father was a large residential developer that built thousands of homes in the St. Louis area. On his last project, back in the 90's, the subdivision he was building backed to a small 20 acre or so farm. On this small farm, the farmer had cows. This farm had been in the farmers family for generations, and although much of it had been sold off for development, the farmer and his cows continued to live there.

This entire farm was surrounded by nice suburban homes on all four sides, and had been a farm long before the city ever became a city. To my knowledge, that city never cited that farmer for having cows in a residential area. This was also in St. Louis County.

We refer to this behaviour as "grandfathering". If you use the property for use "A" prior to annexation, you can usually continue to use it for use "A" until you're gone. Until the city uses eminent domain, you sell the property, or your die.

This situation is very similar to the shooting range complaints that are often discusses on here. A shooting range exists for years, and then one day homes are built around it. Now the homeowners want the range closed because it creates a hazard.

The guy who did the shooting was no different than this shooting range. He was there before Kirkwood was, doing what he did. I haven't heard of any of his neighbors having a problem with what he was doing.
 
If it wasn't the parking tickets, it would have been something else. I think the guy was looking for a fight. Some speculate "looking for settlement," and when he finally figured out he couldn't sue anyone for anything, he snapped.

If I park a large, possibly stinky, piece of industrial equipment in front of my house, my neighbors won't like it. I don't live in the country. Not even remotely.

Sad truth is that some of you guys WANT Civil War II... And you WANT this to be the opening shots. Heck, Charlie Manson's probably watching CNN in his cell, and mouth-breathing "It's healter skelter, man..."

Wrong. This was a guy who didn't play well with his surroundings, and when he was told that he wasn't right, he decided, given a constant media reminder that he was empowered, that he was going to retaliate... I'm not going to say "take the law into his own hands," because that isn't even remotely the case. When he wasn't given his way, he threw a tantrum with a pistol.

As for intolerant zoning boards, etc... There's a reason why some areas have property values that go up, and some areas go to the dogs.
 
Next, I find it AMAZING that the town counsel WOULD waive the fee for the tickets. In my opinion, they shouldn't have. He knew the laws. He CHOSE to break them, and then he claimed he was being discriminated against. No... he wasn't... every OTHER person who operates within the law was being discriminated against because he got SPECIAL treatment.

But that was not enough for him. He wanted the record of his violations removed. What purpose did that serve? It wasn't going to affect his insurance due to being a parking violation. No... he wanted to "stick it" to them. He WANTED a conflict. He wanted to see how far he could push in an effort to "cow" them.

When they drew a line in the sand, he answered it with violence.


This is NOT about "government tyranny." Please stop pretending otherwise. This was about a person wanting to be ABOVE others and impose himself on others. This was a SELFISH man who had no respect for anyone but himself.


I am DISGUSTED with the justifications being made for him in the media, and I am appauled that it would even be implied that the victims were -- in any way-- guilty of bringing this on.
+1 I can't believe I'm seeing what I'm seeing here. There is NO justification for what this nutjob did.
 
Thing is, Kirkwood sees itself as an upper-tier community. Old houses, but old money, and some pretty darn decent property values throughout. They've achieved this by being VERY nutso regarding zoning, etc., and since most of the residents intend to RESIDE there rather than WORK there, they are NOT amenable to business. The shooter obviously did not get the message, and did not get with the program.

What would YOU do if a guy parks an asphalt truck in front of your $250,000 house (in this area, you're looking at 3 bedrooms, 2 baths, basement, etc., etc...), each and every night?

If he had been doing it for YEARS before the area was annexed and those zoning laws were put into place then I certainly would not complain, nor should anyone else. And to be honest I sold a house worth more than that out here in the stix and there was a septic tank mfg company there as my neighbor. He was there when I built and I would have had to be a moron to have tried to put him out of business. People and most especially govs need to start minding their own business.
 
It's not like he was in the sticks tho...

The St. Louis metro has probably 100 small municipalities, such as Kirkwood. And probably at least 100 small unannexed areas. Coupla years ago, when I was house hunting, I looked at a house that bordered one of the unannexed areas - The place behind it has been assembled with complete disregard to building codes (i.e., for instance, the "siding" was OSB, and it looked like the electrical service was held up to a tree by some clothesline...), and had a yard full of junk. Sorry, but I wouldn't want to live next to it...

Heck, there's a trailer park in the richest suburb...

This is NOT the country. This is not a city spreading out.

The houses in that area list for $250+ if they're in any kind of shape at all. And they're not big houses. They're not on a lot of land.

This was not a revolt or a revolution. This was a tantrum.

This is a 99% RESIDENTIAL community. The major roads are Lindbergh, Big Bend (and Manchester?), but when you're off them, it side streets and houses. And that's how the residents want it.

Tell y'all what... Move into a city. And start operating an industrial outfit out of your yard. And see how fast you get cited. Then you can throw your own tantrum.
 
+1 I can't believe I'm seeing what I'm seeing here. There is NO justification for what this nutjob did.
__________________
I have been repeating over and over again that he who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor*. He who can do neither of the two is a burden. He has no business to be the head of a family. He must either hide himself, or must rest content to live for ever in helplessness and be prepared to crawl like a worm at the bidding of a bully.




Mannix,

* Emphasis mine.

You've got real issues. Your own sig contradicts what you just said...


--------


JWarren,

The man lived in a residential neighborhood
The man was parking industrial equipment on the street in front of his house.
This was a violation of the ordanances in that neighborhood.
The man received something to the tune of 150 parking tickets for it.
He has expressed his grievances to the town counsel numerous times.
The fine for the tickets was waived, but not taken off the "record."
The man wanted more from the town counsel.
The man was upset that the counsel did not wish to discuss the matter further.
The man chooses to kill these people.


Please note this transpired over the course of nearly 20 years. He was also there before "Kirkwood" moved in. They came in and annexed Meachum Park. In my view that means the town encroached upon him, not him upon the town. I don't care what you say about "the citizens" having voice about the ordinances. He was there first, they moved in. It isn't right when people get to move in and tell you how to run your life.

On top of this I looked a little further into the tickets. It appears he would be ticketed for multiple vehicles at the same time, many times over. Vehicles which had been parked in the same spot for years. Many say it's his fault for not having a place to put them. How is he going to have a place to put them when you're taxing him in fines? Let's see, in just 3 years time he got hit with over $18,000.00. That's $500 a month. If you're a small business owner you think you can just write that off?

It wasn't just him either. The reports I have found from people who live there is that they would sometimes receive multiple tickets on their one vehicle by the same cop just in a single afternoon. At face value it looks like harsh and oppressive policing, and a good ol' boy network within the political offices.

This guy tried non-violent avenues and was thwarted. He's black, and his life and family are tied up into this town. And he's been dealing with this since the early 90's. I'm sure he's tired.

I'm jaded and cynical now. I don't really feel sympathy for any parties involved. He could have moved a lot sooner, and probably should have. Likewise, the city council rode roughshod over this guy, and others. Maybe he just wasn't smart enough to see what was coming. Maybe he couldn't as he was heavily invested in Meachum. It appears he also got a little stubborn, trying countersuits, and so forth. I don't know.
But I do know he was fine, minding his own business, then he was provoked.


Dot-gov meddles (even small town dot-gov), quit screwing around with people's lives (and livelihood) and this kind of stuff won't happen.
 
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