State authorities asking gun owners to allow guns to be test fired.

[MachIVshooter]

if you believe that they have to wait 90 days before they can acess the records you are mistaken

In this case, 90 days is the amount of time required before proceedings to release the records can even begin.

In the event that an LEA requests an ATF trace on a specific firearm recovered pursuant to an ongoing investigation, there is no timeframe.

The records (trace data) that is immediately available to LE agencies is not lists of firearm dispersion from each manufacturer; it is a database of individual guns that have already been traced.

i can't find the section you quoted to see it in comtext help me out

It's linked

I truly am curious how OSBI procured their list, because they have certainly opened themselves and all facilitating parties up to serious litigation. 4473's are not public record anymore than bank accounts or other documents with myriad bits of personal information are. And any dealer who would volunteer the information without being legally compelled to do so does not deserve to be in business. If the list OSBI procured came from BATFE, there are either unscrupulous dealers or it was a serious abuse of compliance inspections.

 

[Halo]

The concern here is this police tactic of casting a wide net over an entire group of people and putting the onus on those individuals to sufficiently demonstrate that they aren't (fill in the blank). At a most basic level that is not in the spirit of due process. That they would attempt something like this, even couched as "voluntary", is enough to raise eyebrows. If someone sees nothing wrong with that then I really don't have any common philosophical ground on which to discuss it any further, because then it becomes a case of mutually rejected premises.

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

"there are either unscrupulous dealers"

or dealers who wouldn't mind seeing someone nailed for shooting two lil girls. there are folks out there that reduce it to as simple as that. kinda uncomplicated but it gets things done.folks are funny about kids getting killed its a thing many unilaterally reject

 

[KelVarnson]

First, thanks to RoadKingLarry for posting a jpg of the letter.

I took the liberty of saving a copy on my computer, and then forwarding it in an e-mail to the Oklahoma chapter of the ACLU. I suggest you all do the same. Here's the e-mail address:

[email protected]

They should be really interested in this, right? Right?... No, seriously... Quit laughing!!!

I also e-mailed a link to the story to The Drudge Report. Maybe this will get the exposure it needs.

 

[Yoda]

This sorta reminds me...

Would any of us want to live in a country where you couldn't get away with anything?

- - - Yoda

Blame Congress

===================

 

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

Well said, Halo.

 

[Wes Janson]

Here's the real question...what happens if you refuse to let them test your Glock?

 

[MachIVshooter]

or dealers who wouldn't mind seeing someone nailed for shooting two lil girls. there are folks out there that reduce it to as simple as that.

The end justifies the means, huh? How far do you take that? Is it then OK to imprison a group of people for an indefinite period of time because the perpetrator of a crime was of a specific race or religion? I mean, as long as the actual guilty party is caught, it's OK for the others to suffer a bit, right?Drawing such a parallell may seem overly dramatic, but it's really not reaching that far. People who are OK with this mild type of persecution of a specific group might just be OK with a more serious infraction of civil rights in a more severe case.

Attitudes like yours are exactly the reason we need our constitution that enumerates rights and limits government power.

"Those who would sacrifice essential liberty for temporary security deserve neither liberty nor security"-Ben Franklin

 

[Soybomb]

If they're basing this on a recovered projectile, I wonder how certain they are that the pistol used in the crime wasn't a 10mm Auto?

I would guess the brass was also found which is why they had it narrowed to a glock thanks to the distinctive brass a glock leaves. From there hit up local ffl's and look for 4473's for glocks .40's. It course would neglect old purchases, guns brought in from out of state, ftf purchases, etc.

That letter doesn't make it sound voluntary.

 

[goon]

I'd offer to allow them to recover one of my bullets.
From the offender in question.
Just point me in the right direction and I'll leave as many samples in him as you require.

 

[harmonic]

Here's the real question...what happens if you refuse to let them test your Glock?

From the article:

“We’ll be checking on them,” Brown said, as well as the 15 or so registered gun owners who did not show up for the test firings.

 

[littlmak]

Ok, so 15 guns didn't make it to the 1st round of testing. Who's to say all 60 owners would't have been contacted 1 at a time? This way only 15 ownwers need to be individually contacted to have their guns checked. Sounds like the police are just trying to save time, money & gas. Don't see how this violates any rights as this is "voluntary" at this point.
How many posts have I read stating " Get info of person selling to/buying from just in case you find gun was used in crime later"
I think that innocent until proven guilty only applies in court, after youve been charged. (I could be wrong) Not to a LEA sending an agent to you to investigate a crime involving a weapon you are known to possess.
But then again, I'm no lawyer.

 

[MachIVshooter]

Don't see how this violates any rights as this is "voluntary" at this point

That's the key. There are many highly educated, highly motivated people trying to figure out a way to circumvent the constitution and subsequent legislation that affords the protection that required OSBI to include the word "voluntary" to be within the law. The rest of the letter is exceedingly authoritive and threatening, as is their statement of "we'll be checking on them" in reference to the owners who excercised their rights and did not show up to this thinly veiled scheme to add more lawfully owned firearms into the crime gun trace database that in and of itself skirts FOPA by a hair's breadth.

In this day and age, Orwell seems less an author and more a prophet.

 

[BigO01]

Wad up letter and toss it in the trash then go to store and get cameras that record video and audio and install them around the doors of the house .

Find a good Law firm that handles both criminal and civil law , sit back and wait for the cops to make a warrantless search of your home or try intimidating you and or violate your rights in some way .

Get on internet and start planning on how you'll spend the money you'll get out of the law suit you can bring when they do violate your Rights .

Thats the American way .

 

[akodo]

They can determine the manufacturer of the gun used from the rifling, twist, lands, grooves, etc. Then they can contact the manufacturer. The manufacturer can give them the distributor's names. The distributor can give the police the names of the stores they sold to. The stores have the FFL forms and can supply those to the police.

I strongly doubt they can determine gun maker from the ballistics. A dozen different gun makers all use the same basic types of rifling.

Even if you could determine gun maker, think about calling up S&W and asking them "what are the serial numbers of all your 40 caliber handguns.

And they'd say
Model X, numbers 00001 to 46987 (or whatever the factory was just finishing that day
Model Y, numbers 00001 to 77894
Model Z, numbers 00001 to 33281

Which distributors did you sell these guns to?
Answer: All of them, we've got 10 filecabnets full of paperwork showing which distributor got which serial number spread for our shipment to each one every 2 weeks for the past 10 years, feel free to come on down and take a look

 

[Treo]

I'm reading this from a cell phone I couldn't see the letter could someone please post the text?

 

[209]

I'm glad I don't live there. They'd be asking why my three Glocks chambered in .40cal didn't get sampled.

Then again, since I would have probably moved there, they'd likely have no record of my purchases. That begs the question of whether or not the whole exercise is worthwhile.

 

[Duke Junior]

Re:Taylor Paschal Placker and Skyla Whitaker
Homicide Investigation

TO WHOM IT MAY CONCERN

The Oklahoma State Bureau of Investigation requests your voluntary assistance with the homicide investigation concerning the June 8th,2008 deaths of 13 year old Taylor Paschal Placker and 11 year old Skyla Whitaker in rural Okfuskee County.A review of firearms records reflect that you previously purchased a Glock .40 caliber pistol.

On August 16 & 17,2008 from 9 a.m to 9 p.m,an OSBI agent will be at the Okfuskee County Sheriff's Department,209 North 3rd Street,Okemah,OK.Please bring your unloaded pistol to the Sheriff's Department.The OSBI will test fire your pistol onsite,then return it to you.The shell casings and projectiles will be retained for comparison purposes.The OSBI will provide the ammuntion.

If you are unable to bring the handgun to the Sheriff's Department,please call 1-918-623-1148 or the OSBI at 1-800-635-TIPS(8477) so that the OSBI can make other arrangements to test fire your pistol.

If you no longer have possession of the Glock .40,please call 1-918-623-1148 or 1-800-635-8477.Please be prepared to provide the name,address and telephone number of the person now in possession of the gun.

Your cooperation is greatly appreciated.

Sincerely,


Ben Rosser,Special Agent
OSBI East Central Regional Office

I'm reading this from a cell phone I couldn't see the letter could someone please post the text?

Hope you can see it now.

 

[alsaqr]

Jessica Brown, spokeswoman for the Oklahoma State Bureau of Investigation, said some 60 letters were sent out to registered owners of .40-caliber handguns, asking them to voluntarily submit their weapons for testing on Saturday and Sunday at the Okfuskee County Courthouse at Okemah.

Registered owners???? There is no gun registration in the state of OK. Someone at the OSBI is up to no good.

I truly am curious how OSBI procured their list, because they have certainly opened themselves and all facilitating parties up to serious litigation. 4473's are not public record anymore than bank accounts or other documents with myriad bits of personal information are. And any dealer who would volunteer the information without being legally compelled to do so does not deserve to be in business. If the list OSBI procured came from BATFE, there are either unscrupulous dealers or it was a serious abuse of compliance inspections.

+1

 

[p2000sk]

Anybody know how Arts grammaw been?

 

[TexasRifleman]

or dealers who wouldn't mind seeing someone nailed for shooting two lil girls. there are folks out there that reduce it to as simple as that. kinda uncomplicated but it gets things done.folks are funny about kids getting killed its a thing many unilaterally reject

You're joking right?

Shocking news flash:

Most people who commit murder didn't hit up Wal Mart the night before to buy the guns and Oklahoma Law Enforcement knows it. This is trolling under the guise of trying to find those 2 girls killers.

While some dealer may think he was "just trying to help" the fact is it's extremely rare for someone to purchase a gun right before a crime. We argued that with the Brady waiting period which turned out to have no impact on crime for that very reason.

At the end of the day there were more than likely several laws broken by OSBI and maybe ATF. Using the excuse that "it's for the children" sounds awfully familiar.

 

[tinygnat219]

That firearm is likely on the bottom of a river, lake, or has been gotten rid of.

 

[Nobody's_Hero]

First, drop the attitude.

+1 and the post is too short.

 

[Harvster]

I guess I understand the basis of the tactic, but I question the effectiveness. So the police have 60 or so local possible guns, as someone said already what if the killer changed the barrel or ran a file down it? now they may be cleared based on the imprecise science of ballistic fingerprinting. Sixty isn't that many people and would only take a few days to interview briefly and ask where they were. I think that may provide more useful information than the test firing itself.

 

[3pairs12]

I keep hearing what a waste of time and money and they are just trolling. Well lets just sent an LEO to sixty peoples homes and interview them that would be a greater waste of time. Nobody suggested that the criminal would actually show, but just maybe this would help eliminate a lot of wheel spinning. If you think they are just trying to make a datbase of who has which .40 don't you think they did that as they typed the letter. As far as attitude goes a person expressing great convictions is showing attitude than you Mach should drop yours also.