Steel Case Ammo Yes or No?

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I have fired thousands of rounds of it through my G17 range pistol. Never had any issues, cause Glocks aren't very picky. I also use it through my SKS. As far as AR's go, some may like it and others may not. My advice- test a small amount first before you buy a lot of it and find out your gun doesn't like it. Be prepared for less than stellar accuracy in your rifle, and plan on your gun being dirtier than if you had fired the same amount of some type of American ammo.
 
My question is more about experience with Steel case.

I have used steel case ammo before when I owned AK and Mosin rifles with no problems. I also feel that guns designed with steel ammo in mind normally run to great.

What I have been seeing on the range the past several months has been good and bad in AR platform rifles. Some guns run steel case with no problems others don't.

The purpose of the thread is to share experience with this type of ammo.
Most steel case 5.56/.223 is loaded to .223 levels. ARs that have larger barrel gas ports will run better. Most people don’t know the size of the gas port on their AR barrel so, they would have to just try some steel case to find out if it will run in their rifle.
I avoid the lacquer coated steel case ammo. In the past I have found that some of it will leave a residue in the chamber that requires acetone to remove.
Surface rust can also be a problem on ammo in the field, depending on the weather and where you are. Apply oil like @Slamfire suggest would be fine for the range, but not for carry or out in the field. Fine dirt and sand seems to collect on anything that has oil on it.
 
I agree but the steel case is not going to hurt the accuracy of a barrel since they never touch the rifled part of the barrel. In theory the steel case is harder on extractors in semi-autos but again extractors are cheap. Bimetal jacketed bullets definitely will wear a barrel out faster and that will effect accuracy.

I run steel case ammo in my AR I use for 3-gun matches. For close stages there is no reason to run better ammo when your blasting. I switch to better ammo for the long range stages.

What? "the steel case is harder on extractors in semi-autos" ??? Does the Russians make better steel for their extractors? I doubt it if fact the steel that most of the manufactures use for cases is softer than brass & the steel rips out leaving a stuck case. It's not the extractors fault but the Russians do have a little larger extractors than the US made guns do.
 
I do own a few 5.56 ARs that don't like the Tula because the cases are too soft & the extractors rip the rim off of the cases trying to extract the spent cases.
 
What? "the steel case is harder on extractors in semi-autos" ??? Does the Russians make better steel for their extractors? I doubt it if fact the steel that most of the manufactures use for cases is softer than brass & the steel rips out leaving a stuck case. It's not the extractors fault but the Russians do have a little larger extractors than the US made guns do.

It harder to extract a steel case than brass due to friction in the chamber thus increasing loads on extractors. Look at how much of the rim and AK47 Extractor engages vs and AR-15 extractor. Also the Soviets knew extracting steel cases was going to be more difficult and thus harder on extractors than brass cases so they included more tapper angle to the cases to facilitate easier extraction (along with other benifits). It's not a huge problem but you do see more extractor problem on AR-15 running steel cases than brass cases and the lucky gunner test also supports this showing slightly more extractor wear in their test.
 
I have heard shooters at the range make comments about the chamber tolerance???
More open chamber being better with steel?

I would think that might be worse, but I'm not sure of that????
 
What? "the steel case is harder on extractors in semi-autos" ??? Does the Russians make better steel for their extractors? I doubt it if fact the steel that most of the manufactures use for cases is softer than brass & the steel rips out leaving a stuck case. It's not the extractors fault but the Russians do have a little larger extractors than the US made guns do.


I am going to suggest the primary purpose of an extractor is to hold the case against the bolt face, so the case is ejected in a predictable pattern.


Notice the inset in this pressure curve,


ajaLyaj.jpg

that 1 to 3 millisecond pressure drop is important because that is the time/pressure period that a M1 carbine unlocks. And what is going on, is called the residual blowback effect. The gun is timed so pressure is high enough to pop the case out of the chamber, and pushes on the bolt face to keep the mechanism moving.


You can see the dynamics of the system with this Garand gas system diagram. At the end of unlock, the bolt is moving back, the case is leaving the chamber, and the pressure is less than 650 psia, which is lower than the pressure required to rupture the case sidewall.


oMRSvid.jpg


Vol IV Machine Gun by Chinn shows how it all works.


FqIAJEe.jpg


Ideally, the extractor never tugs on the rim. Extractors are thin pieces of steel, if you stress them, they will break in time. If you really, really, want to experience stove pipe jams, wear out your extractor. When extractor tension is insufficient, the case falls off the bolt face, or is ejected forward, and then it bounces around in front of the bolt as it goes forward.


HK has made claims that their roller bolt rifles, with fluted chambers, will function without an extractor. And that is due to the fact the case is blown out of the chamber, and probably sticks to the bolt face with a high level of adhesion.


PB9SaEH.jpg


I just looked around for a book of mine, it is the career experiences of an Army Ordnance Officer who worked on the M14 and FN rifle development program. For a time the American’s made FN FAL rifles and those rifles were undergoing endurance tests. It turned out the extractor’s on the America made, and tested FAL’s were breaking much earlier than the FN built FAL’s, under test in Belgium. The primary difference in extractor life was due to an oil coating being applied to ammunition in Belgium ammunition plants. Once the oil coating was removed, the Belgium extractors broke as early as the American. To the US Army Ordnance, that is considered a success, as they are oil phobic.


So, if steel cased ammunition drags more in the chamber than brass, then you would expect your extractor to fail sooner with steel cased ammunition. I am of the opinion that oiling steel case would increase extractor life, by breaking the friction between case and chamber.

And it does not take much lubricant to improve the feed and extraction of steel case ammunition. Just follow Clark's advise.
 
My question is more about experience with Steel case.

I have used steel case ammo before when I owned AK and Mosin rifles with no problems. I also feel that guns designed with steel ammo in mind normally run it great.

What I have been seeing on the range the past several months has been good and bad in AR platform rifles. Some guns run steel case with no problems others don't.

The purpose of the thread is to share experience with this type of ammo
Ok:
I have been pleasantly surprised this past year with steel-cased ammo in multiple calibers. I've heard the "AR's don't like it" talk, but my own personal experience is that mine eat it just fine. Now, I have lower-end, entry level guns: Radical Arms, Bear Creek Arsenal, stuff like that. The Radicals have Melonite barrels, the BCAs are parkerized (and I don't think chrome-lined). Have 16" in both 5.56 and 7.62x39, and a 10.5" in 5.56 (which is a BCA Gen 2 side-charger).
Shooting .223 steel, I have shot Tula (polycoated) and Silver Bear (zinc-plated steel), and just ran a box of lacquered Maxxtech (Vympel, so the Golden Tiger stuff). One of the rifles initially choked a little on the Silver Bear, first magazine through the gun (a Radical). I cleaned it more, lubed it up some, zero problems since. Never had a problem with Tula, nor the lacquered stuff so far. All eject right about 4:30 or so, my understanding is that's about where you want it.
7.62x39 through the BCA's, I have shot Barnaul, Wolf, and Tula. The Barnaul has been great. Initially had trouble with the first upper, with Tula... light strikes about 33% of the time. I put an enhanced firing pin (the second upper came with one), and has ate everything without complaint.
I have seen zero damage to the case rim with these, the standard extractors are tossing the empty cases without incident. I DID have a BCA 7.62x39 extractor shear the tip off, that was a different extractor (it was thinner and grabbed a larger circumference of the rim). I test-replaced it with a standard 5.56 extractor, which looks to be thicker, but doesn't grab as wide a section of the case rim. It has performed flawlessly since installation, with no damage to the rims. BCA sent me a replacement, which I have kept in a bag with other parts. The second BCA 7.62 upper has zero problems... the firing pin is already the enhanced type, and the extractor so far has held up fine.
I've shot these a good bit, and at this point I consider all to be reliable and would trust them all to work. I do have IMI brass 5.56, but have shot the steel instead, wanting to save the IMI until prices come down.
Shooting iron sights, I find this to be as accurate as I am, and groups fine at the distances I shoot.

308/7.62 NATO; I have a C308, which is Century's most recent Cetme attempt. Steel Tula and Red Army .308; brass Armscor .308, and some Korean surplus 7.62 NATO. I also have an Ishapore 2A1 (Enfield design natively made in 7.62 NATO, not converted). Initial testing of the ammo shows the C308 absolutely LOVES the steel stuff, and also groups fine. I have run into an occasional stuck case with the Armscor brass, so I save all the brass for the Ishapore. I haven't tried steel in that.

8mm Mauser
- I have picked up a fair supply of the steel stuff, to shoot in my VZ 24 that I got from my dad. I think it was Romanian stuff sold by Sportsman's Guide? It's a bit wonky, the shoulder is slightly out of spec. Some Mausers can chamber it, some it doesn't fit. In my case, working the bolt takes a little effort (but not a lot). It extracts easily. It shoots great, and for the price I paid, it's fine.

45acp; as stated above, I have shot a lot out of my (budget line) 1911's. No issues at all, acceptable accuracy. I wouldn't hesitate at all to use this in a pinch (45 fmj is still pretty good for SD), and to get more. Red Army Standard, Tula, Hot Shot. **I ordered some Tula from Optics Planet in December 2020, and this was the only "backordered" stuff they didn't cancel. I got some for 36 cents a rd, finally delivered end of June. Not a great price compared to the past, but better than anything today.

9mm Luger, I picked up a case of Tula for under $160 last year, when things were getting tight on availability (but prices hadn't shot up too high yet). No noticeable issues with the pistols I've shot it through. Nothing has broken ;), no misfires or malfunctions, and accuracy has been fine. Just the other day I ran a box through my older Sig P226, and was quite happy. I'd got some "used in fair condition" magazines for a decent price, these ran through a couple without any problems. I used the ammo box at 15 yds as a target, and kept every rd on paper. When you consider that's the size of a pack of cigarettes or an iPhone, shooting casually from a standing position with no bracing, I'd say the ammo did just fine. I've also shot it through other guns, and again no problems. I picked up a 2nd Star Modelo Super (got both the Largo and Luger barrels), and used some of the Largo mags- fed fine. More reliable and consistent than, say, old Remington UMC.

Obviously I had shot a lot of steel 9x18 Makarov through those in that chamber, and bunches of 7.62x39 through my SKS's. But prior to 2020, was very reluctant to try it in the above calibers (and in ARs in general). I have my stashes of "good ammo", but added the steel in those as a temporary safety net (outside the Mauser). After a year+ of use, I'm satisfied the vast majority of complaints are just rumor. No, I can't reload them. Outside of that, I would say it's performed solidly.
 
I am going to suggest the primary purpose of an extractor is to hold the case against the bolt face, so the case is ejected in a predictable pattern.


Notice the inset in this pressure curve,


View attachment 1016833

that 1 to 3 millisecond pressure drop is important because that is the time/pressure period that a M1 carbine unlocks. And what is going on, is called the residual blowback effect. The gun is timed so pressure is high enough to pop the case out of the chamber, and pushes on the bolt face to keep the mechanism moving.


You can see the dynamics of the system with this Garand gas system diagram. At the end of unlock, the bolt is moving back, the case is leaving the chamber, and the pressure is less than 650 psia, which is lower than the pressure required to rupture the case sidewall.


View attachment 1016834


Vol IV Machine Gun by Chinn shows how it all works.


View attachment 1016835


Ideally, the extractor never tugs on the rim. Extractors are thin pieces of steel, if you stress them, they will break in time. If you really, really, want to experience stove pipe jams, wear out your extractor. When extractor tension is insufficient, the case falls off the bolt face, or is ejected forward, and then it bounces around in front of the bolt as it goes forward.


HK has made claims that their roller bolt rifles, with fluted chambers, will function without an extractor. And that is due to the fact the case is blown out of the chamber, and probably sticks to the bolt face with a high level of adhesion.


View attachment 1016836


I just looked around for a book of mine, it is the career experiences of an Army Ordnance Officer who worked on the M14 and FN rifle development program. For a time the American’s made FN FAL rifles and those rifles were undergoing endurance tests. It turned out the extractor’s on the America made, and tested FAL’s were breaking much earlier than the FN built FAL’s, under test in Belgium. The primary difference in extractor life was due to an oil coating being applied to ammunition in Belgium ammunition plants. Once the oil coating was removed, the Belgium extractors broke as early as the American. To the US Army Ordnance, that is considered a success, as they are oil phobic.


So, if steel cased ammunition drags more in the chamber than brass, then you would expect your extractor to fail sooner with steel cased ammunition. I am of the opinion that oiling steel case would increase extractor life, by breaking the friction between case and chamber.

And it does not take much lubricant to improve the feed and extraction of steel case ammunition. Just follow Clark's advise.
I would have to disagree with you about the extractor. While working in the LA. State Police Crime Lab, my job was to test fire evidence guns and then match the cartridge cases to cartridge cases that were collected from crime scenes. One of the areas that is used to match cartridge cases is the extractor markings. Depending on the gun, the markings can be from light to heavy. I found that guns with rougher chambers, or dirty chambers, would leave heavier markings. When it came to ARs the extractor markings were all over the place. This is due to several reasons like being over gassed, rough or thigh chambers. I had some ARs that would almost pull the rim off the case.
I had several 5.56 cartridge cases, from different crimes scenes where the extractor marks were light , but the ejector was cutting deep into the rim and sometimes all the way through the rim. From the extractor, ejector and breach face markings, I determined that the gun was an AK type of weapon, and most likely an AK pistol. Shorty after a drug dealer was arrested that had an AK pistol in 5.56. It ended up being the gun that I was looking for and I was able to match it to several shootings.
There are some guns where the extractor has very little to do with holding the case against the bolt face, like the AR 15 or other guns that used the same type of ejector and extractor system. There are several guns that will not eject a fired cartridge case without an extractor, or one in good condition.
 
My buddy shoots nothing but steel cased since he doesn't reload and times are bad. He hasn't complained once in about a year, shooting a PSA AR-15 and a glock 17 with me mostly and he hasn't had a failure I've seen or heard.

Less accurate than reloads, but what isn't?
 
I am going to suggest the primary purpose of an extractor is to hold the case against the bolt face, so the case is ejected in a predictable pattern.

Notice the inset in this pressure curve,

View attachment 1016833

that 1 to 3 millisecond pressure drop is important because that is the time/pressure period that a M1 carbine unlocks. And what is going on, is called the residual blowback effect. The gun is timed so pressure is high enough to pop the case out of the chamber, and pushes on the bolt face to keep the mechanism moving.

You can see the dynamics of the system with this Garand gas system diagram. At the end of unlock, the bolt is moving back, the case is leaving the chamber, and the pressure is less than 650 psia, which is lower than the pressure required to rupture the case sidewall.

View attachment 1016834

Vol IV Machine Gun by Chinn shows how it all works.

View attachment 1016835

Ideally, the extractor never tugs on the rim. Extractors are thin pieces of steel, if you stress them, they will break in time. If you really, really, want to experience stove pipe jams, wear out your extractor. When extractor tension is insufficient, the case falls off the bolt face, or is ejected forward, and then it bounces around in front of the bolt as it goes forward.

HK has made claims that their roller bolt rifles, with fluted chambers, will function without an extractor. And that is due to the fact the case is blown out of the chamber, and probably sticks to the bolt face with a high level of adhesion.

View attachment 1016836

I just looked around for a book of mine, it is the career experiences of an Army Ordnance Officer who worked on the M14 and FN rifle development program. For a time the American’s made FN FAL rifles and those rifles were undergoing endurance tests. It turned out the extractor’s on the America made, and tested FAL’s were breaking much earlier than the FN built FAL’s, under test in Belgium. The primary difference in extractor life was due to an oil coating being applied to ammunition in Belgium ammunition plants. Once the oil coating was removed, the Belgium extractors broke as early as the American. To the US Army Ordnance, that is considered a success, as they are oil phobic.

So, if steel cased ammunition drags more in the chamber than brass, then you would expect your extractor to fail sooner with steel cased ammunition. I am of the opinion that oiling steel case would increase extractor life, by breaking the friction between case and chamber.

And it does not take much lubricant to improve the feed and extraction of steel case ammunition. Just follow Clark's advise.
Okay, we have multiple problems here.

1) Where'd the M1 Garand gas system graph come from?

If you read the report it came from or my original post where I posted it, you would know that it is NOT an M1 gas system (and we would know it too, if you hadn't cropped the header information off). That graph is for a T44 with a gas impingement system.

2) You show a Caliber .30 Carbine pressure-time curve, then discuss its interaction with the gas system with a totally different different cartridge.

So, let's look at 7.62mm NATO, and the T44 gas system graph you posted, I won't bother to post the pressure-time graph for 7.62mm as I have done so before, and you probably already have a copy.

From the T44 graph the bolt starts to unlock at 2.3 ms. The 7.62mm NATO pressure-time graph (that is the mate to the Carbine one you show) has the chamber pressure at 2.3 ms as 375 psi. So, the force pushing the case out of the chamber is, at most, 65 pounds, most likely less as there will be some friction between the chamber walls and the case.

We can calculate the acceleration and velocity of the case (assume a friction-less case to make life simple) and compare the case velocity due to gas pressure and the bolt velocity and acceleration from the graph. If you do, you will find the bolt has about 50 to 100 times the speed advantage.

So, the extractor does extract the cartridge case.

3) Lt Col. George Chinn's book is a great source of information, especially if you are planning to sit down and design an automatic weapon. However, if you have to be careful pulling to many of his "rules-of-thumbs" or extracting graphs as examples of "proof of your point of view". The point of that five volume set was to assist engineers in designing automatic cannon for Naval aircraft, as the Hispano had less than stellar performance. All of the graphs, and examples in the books are based on the Navy's 20mm, Mk100 ammunition, which isn't even the same 20mm ammunition used today the M61, and other modern 20mm cannons. Forced extraction of a 20mm cartridge case, that weighs 1/4 pound is very much different from extracting a case that weighs 20 times less.

4) I have read every report the US Army published on the development and testing of the FN FAL (T48), and I have not come across this nugget about oiled cases. Could you please cite the reference. The only thing discussed about the extractor was the original one piece extractor with a wire leaf spring was not acceptable because a) it came out to easily, and b) the grip force was insufficient to hold the rim during automatic fire. Extractor life was never mentioned.

5) Properly designed, and manufactured steel cases will not drag any more than properly designed and manufactured brass cases. The problem is: "Is most steel currently available properly designed and made?"
 
I found that guns with rougher chambers, or dirty chambers, would leave heavier markings. When it came to ARs the extractor markings were all over the place. This is due to several reasons like being over gassed, rough or thigh chambers. I had some ARs that would almost pull the rim off the case.


The AR15 was designed on a shoe string budget but the Military Industrial Complex got the Department of Defense "a little pregnant" and a lot of good American boys died in Vietnam with jammed M16's in their hand. There are a number of books on the subject, quite literally the Army Ordnance Bureau spent hundreds of millions fixing tiny problems, with the weapon in combat, but there are limits as to what can be modified when a system is baselined, in production at a contractor's facility . A contractor who incidentally owns the technical data package, and will charge the procuring organization for hundreds of millions of dollars if it is told to make changes to the hardware. These for profit organizations know the Department of Defense has a bottomless bank account, and they charge accordingly whenever they can. So, the Army made little changes here and there, chromed chambers, better rust resistance, etc. Magazines remained a major source of unreliability till polymer technology (Pmag) was mature enough to create an exact form, fit, and function part out of a more durable material. And that was more than 50 years later.

The AR15 always had, and still does, have an extractor lift issue. The extractor will come off the rim, the round falls off the bolt face causing a jam.

Understanding Extractor Lift in the M16 Family of Weapons

https://slidetodoc.com/understanding-extractor-lift-in-the-m-16-family/

You can see in the presentation, researchers had to grease the cases to keep them on the bolt face.

I believe this is due to two factors, Stoner did not have the budget to do a time, movement, pressure curve test. And, he used a cartridge that was a wildcat.


The 223 round was not so much “designed” as it was a wildcat. The guys who came up with the round wanted a certain velocity at a certain range. I read the 1971 Guns & Ammo article The 223 is here to stay by Robert Hutton. Robert Hutton was technical editor of Guns and Ammo magazine and must have been very wealthy as he owned a big piece of real estate in Topanga Canyon California. It was called Hutton’s Shooting Ranch.

Hutton’s article documents how he developed the 223 round. If you have any sort of technical background, it is apparent he is an amateur and his cartridge represents what an amateur would do. He took an existing cartridge, necked it up and down, blew the shoulder out, changed shoulder angles, he had a chronograph, got the velocity he wanted at distance. The crowning achievement in the article was punching holes in the wobble pot helmet at 500 yards. That is about all the lethality testing Hutton did, punching holes in a helmet. He used the Powell Computer, a paper slide rule, to estimate pressures. He did not pressure test his cartridge. He used the powders he could buy at the Gun store. This cartridge was then adopted as the US service round.

I have no idea of his background obviously he was a firearm enthusiast, and being the Technical Editor of a Gun magazine made him well connected. Unfortunately, amateurs don’t have the time, equipment, or understanding to really sweat out the tiny details. These guys did not have the analytical capability nor probably, had the comprehension to thoroughly study cartridge case design. William Davis, the Government Technical Expert at the Icord hearings, said on the History Channel that the technical data provided the Government on the 223 round did not come with a pressure curve. Hutton created a wildcat never thought of documenting what the pressure curve looked like. Pressure curve is absolutely critical to the timing of an automatic weapon. How long energy is available, the maximum pressure and how fast it drops off is fundamental to the design of a automatic gas mechanism.

This is from Chinn's Machine Gun series.

OvuSHJk.jpg

Hutton did not look at case hardness, taper, expansion or contraction. A professional would have looked at the expansion and contraction of the case in the chamber and adjusted case taper, thickness, and established case hardness in the sidewalls and case head. You would expect the cartridge design team to consult with manufacturing to determine realistic hardness parameters throughout the case. This is important as it affects the Young’s Modulus. As it turns out, the brass case 223 drags on extraction, there is not enough clearance between the case and chamber. Steel case is even worse. I have seen many failures to extract steel case ammunition on the firing line with AR15’s.

Then there were other issues, one of which, when the pressure curve was measured, manufacturing technology of the era, could not hold the tolerances. As a made up example, the powder manufacturer made ten lots, following best practices, and then went out and tested which lots met cartridge pressure curve requirements. Lets say, five lot passed. The Army received those five lots, at their cartridge factory, and was charged for all ten! The Army did not did not like charged for ten lots when they always received less, and told the powder manufacturer to "qualify", that is guarantee, that all lots made by the powder manufacturer met requirements. Given that ultimatum, the powder manufacturer told the Army to go pound sand, and the Army lost its powder supplier! And that was the origin of the stick powder versus ball powder problems of the era. The Army used M14 ball powder in the 5.56 case and that caused a lot of failures to eject.

Because Hutton had no idea of the brass hardness levels in the case needed for function, the Army had to figure that out with the weapon in combat. And the best they could do, altering case hardness and thickness, it ends up the 5.56 case still drags with brass as a case material. Unfortunately for the user, the unreliability level is considered acceptable by the money men. Which, I am sure, is no comfort for the guy whose gun jams in a hairy situation. However, the cartridge performs even worse with steel as a case material.

From the very beginning, the 5.56 cartridge was a poor design, the weapon and accessories finicky, a total example of what happens when a “not ready for prime time gun and cartridge” gets introduced and issued as a Military weapon.

So, if you are seeing that the AR is pulling on the rim, with different AR’s built by different makers, all pull differently, that is the nature of a kludge design, made of cobbled together parts, and sent out with a wish and a prayer that it works longer than the warranty period.

I don’t read Russian, and don’t have access to the Russian Defense Technical Reports website, assuming there is one. So I don’t know why AK’s are showing extractor marks. The AK and its round were properly designed, a short case with a lot of taper, and designed for the very start to be made from steel. I have never shot my AK enough to really stress the thing, but did you know, military capture AK’s were tested by the Air Force against M1 carbines, M1 Garands, and M14’s, and Stoner’s AR15, and the reliability of battlefield capture AK’s were better than the AR15. I forget how it placed against the other weapons, but it was pretty darn good. At the time, the Soviets were not selling AK47’s to our military. We were sort of not best buddies at the time.

There are several guns that will not eject a fired cartridge case without an extractor, or one in good condition.

Not disagreeing, I don’t know all weapons, but I don’t know of a weapon out there that will extract and eject without an extractor. The case will fall off the bolt face. I am sure there are designs that require the extractor to pull the case out of the chamber, and I am also sure, extractor lifetime is short in those mechanisms. The AR is not the only kludge on the market. Why don’t we talk about software, and how software developers always create error free software that never requires patches?
 
As a side note. When I first got my PSA 10 rifle. I found Monarch steel case ammo was the one that I found to be most accurate in it. Based against MKE, Port surplus and Argentine surplus. Not match accuracy but tighter groups.

Steel case was all I shot in my Mini 14 when I had it due to how bad it beat the cases up. Going to be the same for my PTR 91 once I can get the ammo again.

YMMV
WB
 
Steel case was all I shot in my Mini 14 when I had it due to how bad it beat the cases up. Going to be the same for my PTR 91 once I can get the ammo again.

YMMV
WB

Carry a bottle of oil for that PTR, and be ready to oil your ammunition. While I never had issues with my PTR 91, I know the manufacturer created a long list of ammunition that caused malfunctions in the field. And then, the manufacturer more or less said, we don't guarantee the function of the weapon with that ammunition.

Turns out the fluted chamber will not tolerate a lot of powder residue and thin case walls.

https://www.petersoncartridge.com/t...ead-ripping-issue-caused-by-a-fluted-chamber/

If a tight chamber, thin case walls, and dirty powder residue will gum up a fluted chamber, oiling will help extraction for a while. But in the end, it is going to require a chamber brush to clean the flutes.
 
My question is more about experience with Steel case.

I have used steel case ammo before when I owned AK and Mosin rifles with no problems. I also feel that guns designed with steel ammo in mind normally run it great.

What I have been seeing on the range the past several months has been good and bad in AR platform rifles. Some guns run steel case with no problems others don't.

I have seen picky firearms, that’s for sure. I don’t think I have ever seen an AK, SKS, MAC-90, etc that didn’t run good on steel but ran great with something else.

I guess I’d run steel through my AR’s before I’d try polymer cases again but I reload and I don’t reload steel cases.
 
The AR15 was designed on a shoe string budget but the Military Industrial Complex got the Department of Defense "a little pregnant" and a lot of good American boys died in Vietnam with jammed M16's in their hand. There are a number of books on the subject, quite literally the Army Ordnance Bureau spent hundreds of millions fixing tiny problems, with the weapon in combat, but there are limits as to what can be modified when a system is baselined, in production at a contractor's facility . A contractor who incidentally owns the technical data package, and will charge the procuring organization for hundreds of millions of dollars if it is told to make changes to the hardware. These for profit organizations know the Department of Defense has a bottomless bank account, and they charge accordingly whenever they can. So, the Army made little changes here and there, chromed chambers, better rust resistance, etc. Magazines remained a major source of unreliability till polymer technology (Pmag) was mature enough to create an exact form, fit, and function part out of a more durable material. And that was more than 50 years later.

The AR15 always had, and still does, have an extractor lift issue. The extractor will come off the rim, the round falls off the bolt face causing a jam.

Understanding Extractor Lift in the M16 Family of Weapons

https://slidetodoc.com/understanding-extractor-lift-in-the-m-16-family/

You can see in the presentation, researchers had to grease the cases to keep them on the bolt face.

I believe this is due to two factors, Stoner did not have the budget to do a time, movement, pressure curve test. And, he used a cartridge that was a wildcat.


The 223 round was not so much “designed” as it was a wildcat. The guys who came up with the round wanted a certain velocity at a certain range. I read the 1971 Guns & Ammo article The 223 is here to stay by Robert Hutton. Robert Hutton was technical editor of Guns and Ammo magazine and must have been very wealthy as he owned a big piece of real estate in Topanga Canyon California. It was called Hutton’s Shooting Ranch.

Hutton’s article documents how he developed the 223 round. If you have any sort of technical background, it is apparent he is an amateur and his cartridge represents what an amateur would do. He took an existing cartridge, necked it up and down, blew the shoulder out, changed shoulder angles, he had a chronograph, got the velocity he wanted at distance. The crowning achievement in the article was punching holes in the wobble pot helmet at 500 yards. That is about all the lethality testing Hutton did, punching holes in a helmet. He used the Powell Computer, a paper slide rule, to estimate pressures. He did not pressure test his cartridge. He used the powders he could buy at the Gun store. This cartridge was then adopted as the US service round.

I have no idea of his background obviously he was a firearm enthusiast, and being the Technical Editor of a Gun magazine made him well connected. Unfortunately, amateurs don’t have the time, equipment, or understanding to really sweat out the tiny details. These guys did not have the analytical capability nor probably, had the comprehension to thoroughly study cartridge case design. William Davis, the Government Technical Expert at the Icord hearings, said on the History Channel that the technical data provided the Government on the 223 round did not come with a pressure curve. Hutton created a wildcat never thought of documenting what the pressure curve looked like. Pressure curve is absolutely critical to the timing of an automatic weapon. How long energy is available, the maximum pressure and how fast it drops off is fundamental to the design of a automatic gas mechanism.

This is from Chinn's Machine Gun series.

View attachment 1016933

Hutton did not look at case hardness, taper, expansion or contraction. A professional would have looked at the expansion and contraction of the case in the chamber and adjusted case taper, thickness, and established case hardness in the sidewalls and case head. You would expect the cartridge design team to consult with manufacturing to determine realistic hardness parameters throughout the case. This is important as it affects the Young’s Modulus. As it turns out, the brass case 223 drags on extraction, there is not enough clearance between the case and chamber. Steel case is even worse. I have seen many failures to extract steel case ammunition on the firing line with AR15’s.

Then there were other issues, one of which, when the pressure curve was measured, manufacturing technology of the era, could not hold the tolerances. As a made up example, the powder manufacturer made ten lots, following best practices, and then went out and tested which lots met cartridge pressure curve requirements. Lets say, five lot passed. The Army received those five lots, at their cartridge factory, and was charged for all ten! The Army did not did not like charged for ten lots when they always received less, and told the powder manufacturer to "qualify", that is guarantee, that all lots made by the powder manufacturer met requirements. Given that ultimatum, the powder manufacturer told the Army to go pound sand, and the Army lost its powder supplier! And that was the origin of the stick powder versus ball powder problems of the era. The Army used M14 ball powder in the 5.56 case and that caused a lot of failures to eject.

Because Hutton had no idea of the brass hardness levels in the case needed for function, the Army had to figure that out with the weapon in combat. And the best they could do, altering case hardness and thickness, it ends up the 5.56 case still drags with brass as a case material. Unfortunately for the user, the unreliability level is considered acceptable by the money men. Which, I am sure, is no comfort for the guy whose gun jams in a hairy situation. However, the cartridge performs even worse with steel as a case material.

From the very beginning, the 5.56 cartridge was a poor design, the weapon and accessories finicky, a total example of what happens when a “not ready for prime time gun and cartridge” gets introduced and issued as a Military weapon.

So, if you are seeing that the AR is pulling on the rim, with different AR’s built by different makers, all pull differently, that is the nature of a kludge design, made of cobbled together parts, and sent out with a wish and a prayer that it works longer than the warranty period.

I don’t read Russian, and don’t have access to the Russian Defense Technical Reports website, assuming there is one. So I don’t know why AK’s are showing extractor marks. The AK and its round were properly designed, a short case with a lot of taper, and designed for the very start to be made from steel. I have never shot my AK enough to really stress the thing, but did you know, military capture AK’s were tested by the Air Force against M1 carbines, M1 Garands, and M14’s, and Stoner’s AR15, and the reliability of battlefield capture AK’s were better than the AR15. I forget how it placed against the other weapons, but it was pretty darn good. At the time, the Soviets were not selling AK47’s to our military. We were sort of not best buddies at the time.



Not disagreeing, I don’t know all weapons, but I don’t know of a weapon out there that will extract and eject without an extractor. The case will fall off the bolt face. I am sure there are designs that require the extractor to pull the case out of the chamber, and I am also sure, extractor lifetime is short in those mechanisms. The AR is not the only kludge on the market. Why don’t we talk about software, and how software developers always create error free software that never requires patches?
That was a whole lot of typing for a post that started off with incorrect information, or could we just say that you really don’t know as much about the M16 and it’s early problems.
First you need to go back and read up on the AR 10 and how the government screwed over Stoner on that. When the government later came to Stoner asking him to scale down the AR 10, he almost declined. There was a lot of research and development that was done on the system and it was not done on a shoestring budget.
Also the M16 preformed far better then expected during testing. The problems in Vietnam was not due to Stone’s design. The rifle preformed great with Advisors in Vietnam before it was officially adopted by the US.
Defense Secretary Robert McNamara had a lot to do with the M16 being adopted and was most likely responsible for the changes made to the rifle and ammunition that caused the problems.
First off, to cut cost on the rifle the chrome lined bore was none away with. Then the ammunition, which was 5.56 not .223, was altered. The government decided to use a cheaper gunpowder to save money. The new powder burner dirtier and caused heavy carbon buildup in the barrel and gas system. And then there was the fact that McNamara had decided that cleaning gear was not needed for the M16 rifle.
But think about this. If the M16 was so bad why did the only make minor updates , like adding a chrome line bore and a forward assist to the M16A1. And the basic platform is still used today.
But this just goes back to what I have always said, there are a lot of people that tend to know a lot about things they know very little about.
 
The AR15 was designed on a shoe string budget but the Military Industrial Complex got the Department of Defense "a little pregnant" and a lot of good American boys died in Vietnam with jammed M16's in their hand. There are a number of books on the subject, quite literally the Army Ordnance Bureau spent hundreds of millions fixing tiny problems, with the weapon in combat, but there are limits as to what can be modified when a system is baselined, in production at a contractor's facility . A contractor who incidentally owns the technical data package, and will charge the procuring organization for hundreds of millions of dollars if it is told to make changes to the hardware. These for profit organizations know the Department of Defense has a bottomless bank account, and they charge accordingly whenever they can. So, the Army made little changes here and there, chromed chambers, better rust resistance, etc. Magazines remained a major source of unreliability till polymer technology (Pmag) was mature enough to create an exact form, fit, and function part out of a more durable material. And that was more than 50 years later.

The AR15 always had, and still does, have an extractor lift issue. The extractor will come off the rim, the round falls off the bolt face causing a jam.

Understanding Extractor Lift in the M16 Family of Weapons

https://slidetodoc.com/understanding-extractor-lift-in-the-m-16-family/

You can see in the presentation, researchers had to grease the cases to keep them on the bolt face.

I believe this is due to two factors, Stoner did not have the budget to do a time, movement, pressure curve test. And, he used a cartridge that was a wildcat.

The 223 round was not so much “designed” as it was a wildcat. The guys who came up with the round wanted a certain velocity at a certain range. I read the 1971 Guns & Ammo article The 223 is here to stay by Robert Hutton. Robert Hutton was technical editor of Guns and Ammo magazine and must have been very wealthy as he owned a big piece of real estate in Topanga Canyon California. It was called Hutton’s Shooting Ranch.

Hutton’s article documents how he developed the 223 round. If you have any sort of technical background, it is apparent he is an amateur and his cartridge represents what an amateur would do. He took an existing cartridge, necked it up and down, blew the shoulder out, changed shoulder angles, he had a chronograph, got the velocity he wanted at distance. The crowning achievement in the article was punching holes in the wobble pot helmet at 500 yards. That is about all the lethality testing Hutton did, punching holes in a helmet. He used the Powell Computer, a paper slide rule, to estimate pressures. He did not pressure test his cartridge. He used the powders he could buy at the Gun store. This cartridge was then adopted as the US service round.

I have no idea of his background obviously he was a firearm enthusiast, and being the Technical Editor of a Gun magazine made him well connected. Unfortunately, amateurs don’t have the time, equipment, or understanding to really sweat out the tiny details. These guys did not have the analytical capability nor probably, had the comprehension to thoroughly study cartridge case design. William Davis, the Government Technical Expert at the Icord hearings, said on the History Channel that the technical data provided the Government on the 223 round did not come with a pressure curve. Hutton created a wildcat never thought of documenting what the pressure curve looked like. Pressure curve is absolutely critical to the timing of an automatic weapon. How long energy is available, the maximum pressure and how fast it drops off is fundamental to the design of a automatic gas mechanism.

This is from Chinn's Machine Gun series.

View attachment 1016933

Hutton did not look at case hardness, taper, expansion or contraction. A professional would have looked at the expansion and contraction of the case in the chamber and adjusted case taper, thickness, and established case hardness in the sidewalls and case head. You would expect the cartridge design team to consult with manufacturing to determine realistic hardness parameters throughout the case. This is important as it affects the Young’s Modulus. As it turns out, the brass case 223 drags on extraction, there is not enough clearance between the case and chamber. Steel case is even worse. I have seen many failures to extract steel case ammunition on the firing line with AR15’s.

Then there were other issues, one of which, when the pressure curve was measured, manufacturing technology of the era, could not hold the tolerances. As a made up example, the powder manufacturer made ten lots, following best practices, and then went out and tested which lots met cartridge pressure curve requirements. Lets say, five lot passed. The Army received those five lots, at their cartridge factory, and was charged for all ten! The Army did not did not like charged for ten lots when they always received less, and told the powder manufacturer to "qualify", that is guarantee, that all lots made by the powder manufacturer met requirements. Given that ultimatum, the powder manufacturer told the Army to go pound sand, and the Army lost its powder supplier! And that was the origin of the stick powder versus ball powder problems of the era. The Army used M14 ball powder in the 5.56 case and that caused a lot of failures to eject.

Because Hutton had no idea of the brass hardness levels in the case needed for function, the Army had to figure that out with the weapon in combat. And the best they could do, altering case hardness and thickness, it ends up the 5.56 case still drags with brass as a case material. Unfortunately for the user, the unreliability level is considered acceptable by the money men. Which, I am sure, is no comfort for the guy whose gun jams in a hairy situation. However, the cartridge performs even worse with steel as a case material.

From the very beginning, the 5.56 cartridge was a poor design, the weapon and accessories finicky, a total example of what happens when a “not ready for prime time gun and cartridge” gets introduced and issued as a Military weapon.

So, if you are seeing that the AR is pulling on the rim, with different AR’s built by different makers, all pull differently, that is the nature of a kludge design, made of cobbled together parts, and sent out with a wish and a prayer that it works longer than the warranty period.

I don’t read Russian, and don’t have access to the Russian Defense Technical Reports website, assuming there is one. So I don’t know why AK’s are showing extractor marks. The AK and its round were properly designed, a short case with a lot of taper, and designed for the very start to be made from steel. I have never shot my AK enough to really stress the thing, but did you know, military capture AK’s were tested by the Air Force against M1 carbines, M1 Garands, and M14’s, and Stoner’s AR15, and the reliability of battlefield capture AK’s were better than the AR15. I forget how it placed against the other weapons, but it was pretty darn good. At the time, the Soviets were not selling AK47’s to our military. We were sort of not best buddies at the time.

Not disagreeing, I don’t know all weapons, but I don’t know of a weapon out there that will extract and eject without an extractor. The case will fall off the bolt face. I am sure there are designs that require the extractor to pull the case out of the chamber, and I am also sure, extractor lifetime is short in those mechanisms. The AR is not the only kludge on the market. Why don’t we talk about software, and how software developers always create error free software that never requires patches?
The problem with PowerPoint presentations is they are not full reports.

So, the presentation says the only way they managed the get extraction is with greasy cases and no extractor. We know the Army and Marines still discourage the use of oil and grease on ammunition, and we also know that extractor are still a required part. Yet, in all the years since 2003, there has not been a wide spread problem with failures to extract in the M16/M4 weapons system.

This is why you need to read the full report on the subject. The problem was the buffer was too light and the spring rate too low. The initial setback from firing sets the bolt and carrier back the distance of the clearance in the locking system, and that is why the case looses contact with the bolt face. When the heavier buffer was introduced, the speed at which the bolt and carrier set back was reduced and the case could maintain contact with the bolt face, at the same time the spring rate of the extractor spring was increased (gold colored) so the magnitude of the lift was reduced. The M16/M4 family of weapons does physically extract the case against the frictional drag of case and chamber wall. This become very evident if you over-gas (increase the bolt velocity) your AR and watch it tear the rim off cases during extraction.

There is no longer an "extractor lift" problem with the M4 and there never was one with the M16 rifle configuration.
 
IMO steel is not the thing for ar type chambers, but otherwise fine. Comblock stuff it's preferrable. I'm not sure brass would be reloadable coming out of an ak pattern rifle. They eject pretty violently. Looks like Robinson stuff ejects like an ak so they should be good for steel.
 
That was a whole lot of typing for a post that started off with incorrect information, or could we just say that you really don’t know as much about the M16 and it’s early problems.
First you need to go back and read up on the AR 10 and how the government screwed over Stoner on that. When the government later came to Stoner asking him to scale down the AR 10, he almost declined. There was a lot of research and development that was done on the system and it was not done on a shoestring budget.
Also the M16 preformed far better then expected during testing. The problems in Vietnam was not due to Stone’s design. The rifle preformed great with Advisors in Vietnam before it was officially adopted by the US.
Defense Secretary Robert McNamara had a lot to do with the M16 being adopted and was most likely responsible for the changes made to the rifle and ammunition that caused the problems.
First off, to cut cost on the rifle the chrome lined bore was none away with.[1] Then the ammunition, which was 5.56 not .223, was altered. The government decided to use a cheaper gunpowder to save money.[2] The new powder burner dirtier and caused heavy carbon buildup in the barrel and gas system. And then there was the fact that McNamara had decided that cleaning gear was not needed for the M16 rifle.[3]
But think about this. If the M16 was so bad why did the only make minor updates , like adding a chrome line bore and a forward assist to the M16A1. And the basic platform is still used today.
But this just goes back to what I have always said, there are a lot of people that tend to know a lot about things they know very little about.
Few minor corrections, Gunny:

1) The chrome plated bore was not "done away with", the AR 15, as made by Armalite, never had one. The first time the Army ever saw an AR-15 in 1958, they expressed a desire to have the bore and chamber chromium plated, as they felt the small bore would be especially vulnerable to erosion. The ability to get a uniform thickness chromium plating in a small diameter deep hole was not something easily done with the plating techniques and technologies of the time. They were having problems doing .30 bores to the quality expected. This is why barrel passed through three eras, the early un-plated bore and chamber, the later plated chamber and unplated bore, and last the fully plated bore and chamber.

2) The switch to ball propellant was not a cost saving measure. It was a performance and producibility measure. The original propellant, IMR 4475, did not average a high enough energy density across lots, and was notorious for producing fluctuations in chamber pressure. The Army had tried using it in 7.62mm cartridges in the late 1950 but found the pressures and velocities were hard to control. One of the many reasons IMR 4475 has not been produced since the mid 1960s. Because of the behavior of IMR 4475 only hand picked lots were capable of meeting the pressure and velocity requirements. In 1963 none of the ammunition producers bid on a RFP for a few million rounds of 5.56mm ball. The only propellant that had the required energy, and the proven record of consistence pressure and velocity stability was WC846. This in itself would not have been a problem if the suggestion of Frankford Arsenal, Winchester, and Springfield Armory to test the ammunition in the gun to see what changes might be experienced. However, the Office of the Secretary of Defense (OSD), states that no testing was going to be done as they (mistakenly) believed the AR-15 was a fully developed and not being engineers, did not think a change in propellant would make any difference. (Bullets are bullets, right?)

3) It is not that the OSD did not think they were needed. It is more of the fact that the people in the OSD in charge of the M16 project did not understand what "fielding a weapons system" actually means. It does not mean that the guns and ammunition gets in the hands of the troops, it means all of the required logistical infrastructure be in place as well. When Armalite made the AR-10 and AR-15, they did not design cleaning kits and combination tools and all that support stuff, so when the Army boughtthe AR, they had to design and make all that stuff, get in production and then ship it to the troops with the rifles.

As to the AR-15 performing well in testing, that is quite true. There is only one major thing that required fixing, everything else was a tweak*, or not strictly necessary**. That one thing was the "action spring guide", it was too light, and subject to having its buffering springs seize, which made the high rate of fire higher and the bolt bounce in full automatic fire even worse.

(All of this information can be found in Ezell and Steven's "The Black Rifle, M16 Retrospective")
__________________
* the extractor spring and the addition of the extractor spring buffer, these improvements just improved the life of the spring. The flash hider, and the pivot pin, charging handle and the magazine fence are minor things.
** the forward assist is strictly not necessary, but it was, and always has been, a requirement on everything, except the M1918 BAR.
 
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