steer me right = .45 Colt wildcat" stuff, etc."

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ive heard these stories about them not shooting well for years. I bought the old man one for his birthday years ago and the first load i tried in it was 10 grains of herco and a 255 rcbs swc and it shot into an inch at 50 yards and i never felt the need to look for another load for it.
 
My T/C 10" shot factory colt ammo well. My 45acp type cast bullets not so good. The mistake i made was trying to load ammo with 45acp dies. Using colt dies and fat bullets .454" at slow velocity might work. The 410 is fun on the skeet field, no doubles thank you.
 
I think the reason people say the 45 shoots poorly in the combo contender barrel is becasue they compare it to a normal contender barrel. They seem to shoot about as well as most 45 colt revolvers.
 
"Dear Sir,
the nearest we have to your requirements is our design No.
452 C&B as shown on the attached catalogue page. The heel is a nominal
.445" diameter and approx .200" long when cut with an overall length of
.700".
Alternately we can make a custom design to your specs which would require a
new cherry (cutter) . This would add $200 to the cost of the mould.
Current price list attached.

regards,


JIM ALLISON (Mgr.)
CAST BULLET ENGINEERING
P.O. Box 269 Menai Central
NSW 2234 AUSTRALIA

Phone/Fax 02 9532 0103
International 61 2 9532 0103"

The above appears to be one option. I'm not sure if .2 inch is enough Heel Base length to crimp effectively, though. The total length of the round nose bullet is .7 inch, leaving exactly .5 inch beyond the neck of the brass. Using Snuffy's measurement, that would put the total cartridge length at just under 2.9 inches. The heel diameter is also .445 whereas Snuffy said the internal diameter of the Midway 2.5 inch .410 brass is .440.

Anyway, the above might work. I'd be glad to hear opinions on that.

I also wondered if it might just be easier to have a machine shop take some
.452 or .454 bullets and turn the bases to .440 with a heel that is perhaps 3/8 inch long or so.
 
"Dear Sir,
the nearest we have to your requirements is our design No.
452 C&B as shown on the attached catalogue page. The heel is a nominal
.445" diameter and approx .200" long when cut with an overall length of .700".
Click to expand...

If I read that correctly, he COULD cut it longer, make the heel longer to make a heavier bullet. What would the weight be if he cut it like he says? I think .200 would be enough inside the case for a single shot like ours. The next problem though is a method to apply a good firm crimp.:banghead:
 
I sent another email to the company in Australia. The response to the question of the max length of the heel and the grain size of the corresponding boolit is:

"approximately 300gn with a .250" heel , depending on alloy used.."

So, that answers that questions. We can get a heeled .452 boolit mould with a heeled based where the "nominal" diameter of the heel is .445
The bullet size is about 300 grains.

I was talking to an older gent near me who owns his own gun store and used to work as a Vet. I explained to the ole Doc what I was trying to do. His response in regard to the question of how to crimp the two diameter bullet was:
1)"hmmmm... I wonder how they crimp the 22LR bullet. "
2)in a single shot such as the H&R Survivor or the Encore/Contender, it may not need a crimp if the bullet fits tightly (.440 internal diameter with a .445 heeled bullet)
3)could always use lock tite or a similar product with a thin layer on the heel, again particularly for a single shot only.
 
The original 41Colt also had a heeled base bullet. Later, they went to a smaller bullet with a hollow base (soft lead) with the design to expand to engage the threads...

sounds familiar to my thought processes. But, I still haven't found how the old 41 Colt was crimped with a heeled base bullet. And, I can't seem to find info on how the 22LR is crimped either.:confused:

http://www.dnmsport.com/41LC/41 LONG COLT.htm
 
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I think you may have come to the point where time wise and cost wise you would be better off buying a 444marlin barrel. Of course that wouldn't be as much fun.
 
Yes, even if I get this to work, all I am really doing is re-creating either the 444 Marlin or the 460 S&W depending on what size powder load I use.

But, I like the idea of being able to use this basic platform idea (gun and cartridge) to load to:
1)45 Colt max load plus filler
2)444 Marlin plus filler
3)460 S&W

It just seems like a fun project. And, this is a heck of a lot cheaper than buying an encore barrel in all 3 of the above.

That company in Australia charges around 80 bucks in the currency of Australia for the mould. I have no idea what the exchange rate is.
If I have them create an entirely unique mould, it costs 280 in Australia currency. I think that the above noted already existent mould/mold could be used.

So, not sure I am really spending a fortune.
 
"You could probably neck size brass in a .44 mag or better a .444 Marlin die and bell for the bullet as well if resizing to .44 case dims-at least the neck and a .44 Colt bullet will work well with this neck sizing. I have a 248 grain heel bullet that will cast at least .452"x.429" with longer bearing that should shoot well. I could modify a lee factory crimp die to work. should be about $45.00 total for this die. Double cavity mould is $85.00 three cavity $99.00. The crimp die should crimp these oversize cases and you could send me a case so I can fit the crimp die to your case. Neck size to fit the bullet base will be better as it will keep bullet aligned in the case better. A resized .452" bullet may work especially if you don't have to size too much. Too much sizing will likely cause out of alignment problems as well as other bullet distortion.BernieOld West Moulds"

Above email from Old West Moulds. I think I'm getting closer to a great solution...
 
Looks like the plan, Snuffy and Okiecruffler, is to put a shoulder/neck on the 410 brass to bring it down to load the old 44 Colt heeled bullet. Old West Moulds is making the tool to crimp the bullet. Of course, they also make the mould.

So, I have come back around to the idea of the 44 Colt bullet which was mentioned much earlier as an option. To get around the difference in the internal diameter of the brass mouth and the size of the heeled base, we'll use a 444 Marlin brass sizer to size down the neck creating a small shoulder.

Anyway, I think this cartridge will have about a half inch additional space with corresponding volume above and beyond the 460 S&W.

Does anyone have any data on CUP with the 460 S&W? My basic thesis in trying to eventually load this safely is to look at 444 Marlin and 460 S&W loading data showing CUP. I want a load known to stay under 40K CUP. I would then fill the remaining volume within the brass with cream of wheat (COW). That should theoretically lessen the CUP compared to the 460 S&W based load. It should dramatically lessen the CUP of the data for 444 Marlin based loads.

My H&R/NEF "Survivor" 45/410 is with a gunsmith where a scope mount and scope is being fitted. The original gun doesn't even have a rear iron site, just an old fashioned ball as a front site.

I will likely start with some bullets already made in 44 Colt before investing more heavily in the supplies to melt lead and pour my own.

And, I still like the idea of finding solid brass .452 bullets and having a machinest turn the base down to .429. But, for now, I stick with lead in the experimental phase.

What shall I call this load? I am not aware of this having been done before but I would not be surprised if it has been done. In honor of the 450 Mongo that I studied along the way to creating this, perhaps I call it the 450 Hu-Mongo?
:)

Another name I came up with is the 450 Winn Mag...
 
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I should also mention the very obvious: The 450 Mongo ought to just be loaded with 44 Colt heeled bullets in the first place. Old West Moulds will make a crimping tool for you...

It should be very easy to construct the original 450 Mongo idea this way. It actually ought to be a lot easier (and work better) than other options I have heard of (thinning the brass, resizing the seated brass/bullet in combination, loading .429 foster type bullets/minnie type hollow based bullets)
:evil:
 
I have a question that I know many of you probably know the answer to.

As can be noted above, I am still talking about loading a 44 Colt heeled bullet in the 410 brass produced by Magtech. That brass uses a small pistol primer. It is my understanding that that construction is going to limit pressure due to the strength of primer pocket. I can recall reading somewhere (I forget where now) that the 444 Marlin brass had an advantage of handling a higher pressure due to the thickness of the brass and the primer size/cup.

Does anyone know roughly what safe limits there would be to loading the 410 brass from Magtech with the small pistol primer?

My first experiments are going to be with black powder substitutes, loading true Cowboy style loads.

But, when/if I move to modern smokeless powders, what are the inherent pressure limits to the thin brass and small pistol primer?
 
& while we're at it - anything round ball loads? Shot a few of those out of the .44 & they were about like a heavy-hitting wrist-rocket ....
Click to expand...

Yes, the Lyman Pistol & Revolver Reloading Handbook lists three round ball loads in .45 Colt. I've loaded a few and shot them. Lots of fun, but not much accuracy at longer ranges.

They're lots of fun to stuff in the chambers after someone just touched off some 250 grain XTP's at 1400+ fps... :D
 
As can be noted above, I am still talking about loading a 44 Colt heeled bullet in the 410 brass produced by Magtech. That brass uses a small pistol primer.
Click to expand...

Not mine. The magtech 410 brass I have is primed with a LARGE pistol primer. But that matters not, because the size of the primer pocket has little to do with the pressure it will tolerate. If small pistol primers are somehow weak, then the guys loading hot .357 magnums should be worried.

I've not given this much more thought, because the only thing I have to shoot a bulleted round from a .410 brass shell is in that weak, cheap POS Comanche.

But, when/if I move to modern smokeless powders, what are the inherent pressure limits to the thin brass and small pistol primer?
Click to expand...

The limiting factor will be the thin brass of the 410 shell. It was made to handle .410 pressures, which are in the 13,000 LUP range. You's be perfectly safe with black or replica black powder, but going much above that would be like skating on thin ice.
 
Thanks, Snuffy. Looks like I stick with Cowboy loads (triple seven) for the 410 brass loads. I sent the 410 brass off to Old West Moulds. They are going to make the brass sizing tool (to size the neck down to 44 mag parameters), the bullet seating tool, and the heeled bullet crimping tool. As to the small pistol primer that my brass has, do I stick with the regular small pistol primer or go with the magnum primer for the triple seven? If I want to go smokeless with this load, do you think a slower powder like Win 231 or IMR might work? Any other idea? I could burn a very slow powder with the 20 inch H&R Survivor barrel.

As to pressure, it will be very hard to figure out pressure with the huge powder capacity in the 410 brass. If I load using a "hot" 45 Colt recipe and fill the remainder of the brass with cream of wheat, I don't know what kind of pressure I'll generate. The adage, "increase slowly and carefully" will be in play.

I will probably load the 444 Marlin brass with the old 44 Colt bullet as well. That should allow for loads in the usual range of 444 Marlin. I'll need to get Old West Moulds to make a crimping tool for the 444 Marlin in order to load the 44 Colt heeled bullet.

I, again, appreciate everyone's help and input. I want to have fun with this but I want to do it safely.
 
I did receive the brass .410 cases and I neck sized in a .44 mag sizer die and the heel of the 248 grain bullet seated easily in a .45-70 seater die. I can of course make a crimp die but I do not think it will be nessisary in a single shot the heel bullets were snug in the case and I did not even bell the cases the chamfer on the case mouth was enough to start the bullet heel into the case by hand and then seat in the .45-70 die. if you have a set of .44 mag and .45-70 dies available you will be able to test these and then if you need a crimp die I can make one up. The only problem with neck size in a .44 mag die is the die is not long enough to adjust up for a full stroke of the press-I could make a simple spacer to fit around the case to act as a stop for this sizing operation and this would make it easier to be consistent in neck sizing.I can make up a custom die set for you but this is custom work and takes time and would be expensive. I would suggest trying the load in these available dies first. I can put together the nessisary .44 sizer a decapper die a beller die and a seater die if you wish that will get the job done. I of course have bullets available at $24.00 per 100.Bernie (Old West Moulds).

I copied the above email for any interested in this project.
 
MikeP:
I have found what I consider to be the ideal brass to use in the very long 45/410 Contender chamber: the old European metric round introduced in 1900 and still somewhat popular over there in doubles and single shot rifles, the 9.3x74R. These cases are available in the US from Norma and RWS. I got my Norma cases from Midway, and at about a dollar a pop, they are not cheap. However, they are the best solution IÂ’ve found in the long 45/410 chamber, and IÂ’m betting the cases will last for many reloadings based on my preliminary testing results.

I roughly measured my 45/410 chamber and found it is a very long 83mm. It is generously sized to fit the long 3-inch 410 shotgun shell. Since the 45 Colt case is only 32.6 mm in length, you can see the bullet would have to pole-vault over to the rifling to exit the barrel. Not good for accuracy, especially with cast lead bullets, as many have reported.

My next step was to use the .444 Marlin case, which is a respectable 56.5 mm long. Necking up the 444 to 45 creates a 45/444 wildcat round, sometimes called the 450 Mongo. Even though the accuracy of this combination was very much better than the 45 Colt, there was still a long gap between bullet and rifling because of my long 83mm chamber. Also, occasionally the rim of the .444 will get behind the ContenderÂ’s extractor, requiring some hassle to get it out of the barrel after firing. This is not much of a problem at the firing range (I use an unsharpened wooden lead pencil to push the brass out), but in the field where a quick second shot may be needed (gasp!), this procedure is not too appealing to say the least.

As the ultimate answer to shooting bullets accurately and reliably in the 45/410 Contender, I have concluded the old 9.3x74R case to be it. This brass is 74.7 mm long, thus allowing the bullet, especially heavy ones, to essentially extend to the rifling, which is always good for accuracy. This is especially true of cast bullets like I prefer, because cast bullets donÂ’t like Weatherby-type freeboring where the bullet accelerates in the rifling-free bore (chamber) and hits the rifling at high speed, thus causing the relatively soft lead bullets to strip in the bore. ItÂ’s much better to use jacketed bullets in such applications.

To adapt the 9.3x74R case for my cast lead bullets, I first annealed the necks in hot lead to help the brass accommodate opening up from 37 caliber to 45. I then loaded the cases with 200-grain cast lead bullets used in my .357. These bullets fit in the unaltered neck finger-tight, which was enough to develop the pressure needed for forming cases. I used 15 grains of Lil Gun to form the cases. The unaltered, new parent case fit into my ContenderÂ’s chamber perfectly. When fired, the case mouth opened up to almost the .45 size needed, and the front end of the brass was kind of wavy due to the parent caseÂ’s original shape. To open the mouth up to .45 for reloading, I put a little case lube on a long Craftsman 6mm socket with a quarter-inch drive, which has a shank which measures right at .45 inch. I used an arbor press to ease the socket in for sizing, and a pair of pliers to remove it. I then used the normal .45 reloading tool to bell the mouth to prevent damaging the base of the bullet or the case when reloading. I crimped the neck lightly after loading.

I use polyester filling, rolled up so that the length and breadth of the empty space in the case between powder and bullet are occupied, thus making the round insensitive to position when shooting.

I wonÂ’t cite my Lil Gun loads for what now is the metric equivalent of a 11.4 x 74R wildcat. I think this gun can be loaded to reliably kill anything on the North American continent. I use a 332-grain Lyman cast bullet, and I will say the gun and cartridge combination is awesome in every sense. With this cartridge, all of the freebore in the long Contender chamber is taken up with a cartridge the size of a cigar.

When you consider that the Contender 45/410 will also shoot full-length 3-inch 410 loads, a more versatile survival weapon does not exist.

As with any wildcatting experimentation, use extreme caution if you decide to create an 11.4x74R in the Contender. Like any wildcat development, you are blazing a new path which can be dangerous.

IÂ’ll be using my 11.4x74R to go after hogs and deer this year. If we had a bear season, IÂ’d use this gun for that too. If I get bored, I can screw in the 410 choke and kill a quail or squirrel for the pot. For such a compact gun in the field, it just doesnÂ’t get any better than that.

http://www.go2gbo.com/forums/index.php?topic=73740.0;wap2

Here's another similar project, more advanced than mine. Enjoy. Enjoy safely.
 
450 Winn Mag.jpg

The taller cartridge is the 44-410 Colt (dubbed the 450 Hu-Mongo or the 450
Winn Mag).

the shorter cartridge is the 45-70
 
Really, two things = I'm looking for stuff regards the .45 Colt in Contenders for hot loads and for standard (sub-sonics in same) - accuracy is paramount
Click to expand...

If accuracy is paramount, and using the TC, then stop after two rounds. TC's don't like to fire with a hot barrel. You'll get vertical stringing. I had a TC and sold it in a heartbeat. It is good for one-four rounds before it 'deviates'.

I'd go with 2400 for a powder. After trying a few for 45 colt magnums that's what I've settled on. Not sure what bullet your going to use, but I've found 250 grain to be adequate with the fps I was looking for. Makes no diff if cast or copper coated hollow points they'll have the same drop.

If your serious about 45 colt, get a blackhawk and marlin 1894. You can put 13 rounds in an 1894 if you take the rod out. Much better rifle than the TC IMO. Supplement that with a blackhawk convertable that does 45 acp (option) and your set. Cowboy action with magnum loads! Now your talking.
 
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