Still think voting 3rd party or not...

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Real_Name.

I think you missed my point. I was saying that the results of this election were not due to a majority of voters "coming around" to support liberal beliefs and ideas. In other words, the Democrats DIDN'T beat the Republican party, the Republican party beat itself. It was disillusioned conservatives fed up with RINOs staying home and voting for conservative Democrats that won the Democrat party their control of the House.
 
You seem to be laboring under the delusion that those who voted for a 3rd party candidate actually care one way or the other that an R or a D got elected.

Apparently you haven't paid attention to those who have rued the day they voted for Nader instead of Gore. Millions upon millions of votes came down to 500+----believe me there are alot of people who hate the idea that they contributed to Bush winning by voting for Nader. Can't hate or love D or R the same--knowing 1 is going to be there in the end should mold your intelligent decision.:scrutiny:
 
Zen, I may have misunderstood your intentions but my understanding of this election remains thus, the centerist electioneering by both parties was equally effective, but only one party was held accountable for a bogus war.

Bush/Rummy/Rove/Cheney lost it for the Reps.
 
And your presumption is that every single person who voted for Nader would have voted for Gore had they known what the outcome of the election would have been beforehand.

Pure, utter speculation.

Again, I point out that perhaps those who elected to vote for a 3rd party candidate did so with the full understanding that their vote might, despite all of the mathematical odds against it, actually "help" one candidate or the other, and even knowing this, chose to cast a ballot for a 3rd party candidate as a way to lodge their dissatisfaction with the prevailing parties.

But that's just, like, y'know, a hunch. ;)
 
Justin,

A history lesson if you will. From Wikpidia-----

Consequences
In the aftermath of the election, the Help America Vote Act (HAVA) was passed to help states upgrade their election technology in the hopes of preventing similar problems in future elections. Ironically, the electronic voting systems which many states purchased in order to comply with HAVA actually caused problems in the following presidential election of 2004.

Democrats blamed third party candidate Ralph Nader for taking the election away from Gore. Nader received some 97,000 votes in Florida. According to the Washington Post, exit polls there showed that "47 percent of Nader voters would have gone for Gore if it had been a two-man race, and only 21 percent for Bush," which would have given Gore a margin of some 24,000 votes over Bush.[13] Some Democrats claim that had Nader not run, Gore would have won both New Hampshire and Florida and won the election with 296 electoral votes. (He only needed one of the two to win.) :banghead:
 
Wikipedia is a wiki, meaning it is only as good as it's open source input, meaning you or I can submit 'facts' and have them spread around the globe as research, many Universities now forbid wiki data.
I once wrote a wikipedia entry whilst drunk, it's still there.
 
Maybe you missed the part about it being the Washington Post?:rolleyes: Anyone with common sense knows that the 3rd party was in favor of Gore over Bush by a good majority. Of course they exercised their "protest" vote and look what it got them. Fine by me.;)
 
IF Hillary is the Democratic nominee in 2008---do you still vote 3rd party or not at all as a statement?
I'm still fuzzy on the write-in rules. If I can write-in anyone, I'm voting for Doctor Baltar, the implication being that a crazy, unstable, weak-willed psychopath taking orders from an imaginary genocidal robot is a better candidate than either of the two major-party candidates.

It doesn't matter how evil Hillary is. My vote still doesn't matter, and anyway I can guarantee you that Hillary won't win TX.

You're right, we will watch R or D win until
a) the voting system is changed from plurality to something sane like condorcet
b) a major elector realignment occurs, which requires a viable 3rd party candidate (like Perot in '92, only even more viable) and some serious disillusionment of a major bloc of voters in either the Dem or Rep parties.

Neither of which I have any control over. All I can do is gripe about the miserable situation.

Mayo, sure... Nader was the "problem," if you think Gore losing was a problem. Blame Nader for running, not the individual voters who voted for him. I may not agree that third party candidates are a problem, but at least there you have single individuals who are responsible in various cases for shifting large enough blocs of votes to swing elections.
 
Mayo, sure... Nader was the "problem," if you think Gore losing was a problem

The point being, and I have run into many since then, that had they known how close it was going to be, they would have voted for Gore instead of Nader. They were voting as you say on principle, with the belief that it wouldn't come down to 500 votes. After making that mistake(in their eyes) then, you would think others would learn from history. If as you say, Hillary has 0 chance in Texas in 2008, then voting 3rd party doesn't matter. If however you are in a state that you know going in could come down to a 1% difference, then you might want to put more consideration into making a protest 3rd party vote IF---IF you really do or don't want her to win.
 
Democrats blamed third party candidate Ralph Nader for taking the election away from Gore. Nader received some 97,000 votes in Florida. According to the Washington Post, exit polls there showed that "47 percent of Nader voters would have gone for Gore if it had been a two-man race, and only 21 percent for Bush," which would have given Gore a margin of some 24,000 votes over Bush.

Doing the math, it seems 32% of actual voters would've either stayed home (lesser of two evils holds no appeal) if it was only a two-man race, or written in candidates (wasting their votes AGAIN) regardless - "

Typically, 40% or so of voters turn out in any given non-Presidential election http://www.census.gov/population/socdemo/voting/tabA-3.csv (but 64.3% did in 2000). Subtract out apathy and indifference (good luck getting exact numbers there!); there's a significant number who STILL don't support EITHER major-party candidate, but don't vote because there's no chance of winning and the Partiya faithful have convinced them "voting for a third party is the same as voting for the greater evil (R or D, whomever is personally worse to you)."

So, the Democrats lost in 2000, 2002 and 2004 only because of those @$%#%^$ third parties, and the Republicans lost in 2006, only because of those ^@%#@$ third parties. Um, OK, if you say so.
 
I love to see stuff like that happen. Actually right off hand the best I've seen tonight is Texas' governors race:

Perry (R) 39%
Bell (D) 30%
Strayhorn (I) 18%
Friedman (I) 12%
Werner (L) 1%

I guess you could say that the 31% of people that voted independent wasted their vote but to me thats a huge message to the republicans and Democrats of the state of texas that if they want to win they have a HUGE number of people that they can win over with some changes to their platform. If they take in those people they run the danger of being eventually outvoted by their growing numbers.
 
Next time you might want to actually have your vote count and mean something.

A) Your candidate lost, that means that none of your votes "counted" either. the only votes that actually matter are the ones that were cast for the winner (by your logic).

Personally, my vote did mean something. It meant that I am not willing to sell out to a very REAL threat to my constitutional rights in exchange for lipservice to the RKBA.
 
I hope your vote pays dividends for you

If you voted for third party......I hope you got what you wanted.
If you voted Democrat because you are unhappy how the republicans handled (your cause inserted here).....I hope you got what you wanted.
If you didn't vote at all out of protest...I hope you got what you wanted.

It's your vote to do with as you please.

What you gave me and the rest of us is Pelosi in charge of the House, Murtha in charge of Ways and Means; Conyers (shudder) in charge of judiciary, and on and on. Heaven help us all.

I hope you are ecstatic with the world this morning.
You got what you asked for.
Most of us didn't.
 
Quit yer whining!!!:mad:
You got what you deserved. By allowing the GOP a free pass on everything from taxes to the border, the people have shown their disgust. Don't like it, start campaigning now for a more freedom minded candidate.
So, all of you who voted for GWB, a question:
Do you think he will veto an AWB if it gets to his desk?
 
It all seems pretty simple to me.

People voted independent because they didn't believe that either the Republicans or Democrats were capable of doing an effective job of representing them.
Nobody stole votes, the incumbents were voted out because
they displayed the supreme arrogance of ignoring the fact
that they were trusted to represent the people, and failed at that task.

I doesn't have to be so complex, so
quit whining

Your efforts will be better directed over the next two years trying to figure out how to get better reps in office.
 
What you gave me and the rest of us is Pelosi in charge of the House, Murtha in charge of Ways and Means; Conyers (shudder) in charge of judiciary, and on and on. Heaven help us all.

No, what the Republicans who have failed in their duties and obligations as representatives of the people gave you, is Nancy Pelosi in charge of the house. Don't start pointing fingers, your vote for republicans didn't count, and I could have easily said that if all of you damn Rhinos would have voted independent in places like Texas, we'd have some real candidates and a chance for change in this country.


For the record, the only Democrat I voted for, won by about 20%...every single Republican that I voted for lost by about 20%.


When the republicans wake up and start fielding more candidates like Ron Paul, or at least someone more viable than an ex-football start for Governor, they'll win back the balance they've lost. It's their responsibility to do it; it's not ours to vote for them when the current crop of Republicans should be flushed anyway. They've got 2 years to get their act together.
 
This helps Libertarians... how exactly?

You voiced dissatisfaction. Great; voiced dissatisfaction and a buck will get you a cup of coffee.

The Republicans won't take you for granted next time. Yeah, right. You just proved that you're an inconsistent and fickle minority demographic. If I'm a Republican candidate I realized a long time ago that a)appealling to Libs is never going to gain me all that many votes (if pure Libs were a substantial voting block they'd actually be electing Libs to national office) and b)advocating hardcore Lib positions is going to alienate a large portion of my reliable base. If Libs can't be counted on to deliver a couple of percentage points and give me room to work (and we know how well Libs deal with compromise "...the lesser of two evils is still evil...") what good are they, it's just easier to get votes elsewhere. Not right, but that's how politics works. 80% of this country agrees with me on most issues, I just need to tune the message and the implementation. Heck, if the GOP softened their stance on a couple of issues, they'd pick up a decent chunk of the middle class black vote, which would be far more consistent and a natural fit (socially conservative, put a lot of urban areas back in play, and reliable). If I can get 2-5 percent out of something like that, Lib votes aren't worth the hassle.

Democrats tried to court Libs. Well yeah, they did. Except at the end of the day, Democrat don't believe in any of the fundamental truths that Libs hold. Libs see government as the problem, or a neccessary evil; Dems see government as the solution, a prerequisite for civilization. If you thought advocating change in the GOP was tough, good luck with that.

Gridlocked government has a lighter footprint. Okay, probably true, especially since there aren't enough votes to override a veto. Except now the government is gridlocked in the middle of a war (don't care who started it, how it's been conducted, who's to blame, it is the extant situation, and it has to be dealt with) and the things that the President and the new Congress will agree on are open borders and a new AWB. So Congress will defund the war, proving everything about America's lack of heart to be true, diminishing our ability to credibly deter threats in the future, the border will never be adequately policed, and my highcaps will shortly be a really good investment.

When you look at it like that, it makes perfect sense!

This, in a nutshell, is why Libertarians will never be more than a niche party. For all the good ideas, and Libertarians are full of theoretically good ideas, the average big L Lib can't cooperate his way out of a paperbag. Can't swallow principle for the political reality that good ideas mean nothing without the power to implement them. And the instant a Lib candidate figures that out, and changes his game up to make himself electable, the faithful denounce him as not pure enough. So rather than make the best of a bad situation they get nothing; well that's wrong, they do get comfort from the righteousness of their indignation, they get the purity of noble failure. I don't fault anybody for voting their heart, but that's what it was, an emotional outburst, rather than actions toward one's interest. So don't pee on my leg and tell me it's raining. Libs directly cost Republicans some close races (after the Republicans did everything they could to lose), in favor of Libs polar opposites, and it's unlikely the country will be better off for it.
 
This is how 2 partisan politics started. I refuse to vote for a candidate I do not endorse just to pick the "lesser of 2 evils". The reason I'm "throwing my vote away" is because of everyone else that succumbs to picking the "lesser of 2 evils". I do not want to get slapped and say "Thank you may I have another".
 
Why did I vote for third-party candidate?

Because the candidate in question in each race represented the values and ideas most closely to my own--and I don't compromise those values. I am a strict Constitutionalist and a staunch conservative.

What would make me vote for a Republican / Democrat?

If the R / D in question represented the values and ideas most closely to my own, I would vote for that candidate--regardless of their party.

How can the GOP get my vote back?

See my answers above and take a guess....


Voting for the lesser of two evils is like deciding just how much pee you want in your Coke..... :barf:
 
Here's the thing I don't get about Mayo and those like him -- it seems implausible to him that folks like me (5% voted Libertarian in most of the elections in my state where a Libertarian was running) voted the way we did because it's a simple moral choice: I'll vote for someone I believe represents my interests, or I simply won't vote.

  • The Democrats nationally want increased restrictions on firearm ownership, and support unviable concepts like socialized medicine, which simply won't make the situation better even though I believe most of them are acting from a conviction they're doing the best thing for the country.
  • The Republicans claim they want to make America "safe," and this includes ratcheting up prohibition, throwing more people in prison, widespread wiretapping, condoning torture of some people (even citizens), arresting other citizens without charges and holding them indefinitely, loosing the restrictions on how the Feds can deploy troops domestically (Federalism, anyone?), monitoring all internet traffic, and so on, all while increasing the federal government further. You know, the Democrats want higher taxes, but the Republicans refuse to discuss the idea that our federal debt right now is something like $500,000 per family, and is increasing at a rate greater than $50,000 per year. Some day, that debt's gonna come due, and all the vote-buying that went on in the past isn't going to insulate us from that pain...
  • The Libertarians are calling for a return to more traditional values -- that government is best that governs least, and so on.
That's an easy choice. I refuse to vote for the first or second option on simple moral grounds. I voted the third option because it's the only reasonable choice in my mind.

If I guy walks into my house and offers to let be die via a shot to the head (painless) or by evisceration (painful, but allows for an open casket), I'm "voting" for life, even if I have < 1% chance of winning, and I might get the "worse" choice as a result.

Seems simple enough to me.
 
So Derek,

1. How would you vote in the classroom scenario I laid out?
2. How would you vote if Hillary is the D candidate knowing a 3rd party vote or simple non vote COULD lead to her winning?
3. The problem with your "death" sceanario is that death is going to happen either way---in this decision you have to live/suffer with your vote.

Again, in a situation where your vote won't matter in an election and you want to lob a protest vote---fine. However it is irresponsible and intellectually wrong---knowing that only D or R is going to win in other situations to stand by and be a bystander. I know it sucks but that is the hand you are dealt sometimes. So instead of being a bystander in that situation(Montana, Virginia) and knowing full well that your vote COULD swing it 1 way or the other, use it wisely.

Bottom line is, like it or not, if I'm a D or R today and I won knowing full well that it was in a large part to the 3rd party vote or non voters---I'm laughing at you all the way to the House/Senate with your "moral" vote. Keep doing it as they keep winning.:(
 
I am sick and tired of hearing how Libertarians, or fickle voters, or shiny blue flamingos cost the Republicans the House and maybe the Senate.

News flash:

The Republicans who have failed horribly in their duties in office, campaigning and aligning themselves with what the American people want cost themselves the elections. If the Rhinos want to cry, cry to the GOP.

The majority apparently doesn't want this war run the way it is being run.

The majority doesn't want questionable practices in detainment, surveillance and interrogation to be the focal tools of the United States in the so-called "War on Terror".

The majority doesn't want a party to say they're for small government and then build a bloated bureaucratic empire.

The majority doesn't want a party to say they're for secure borders and then do absolutely nothing for 6 straight years, allowing a flood of illegals immigrants to pad the employment rosters of their big business interest buddies.


Nobody lost anything for them; they did it all on their own by abandoning the principals that gave them the majority for so long and turning their backs on the American people. Exit polls clearly indicate that a majority of voters wanted to send a message, I think the Republicans heard it loud and clear...the problem is, instead of rethinking their recent trend towards all that is crap in their party, their supporters are sitting around whining about how independent parties cost them votes and insinuating that the American people failed them by not voting for the GOP. The GOP failed the American people by not representing us.

If the Republicans would have stuck to their guns and put forth decent candidates, none of you would have reason to whine.
 
Nineseven,

I'm sorry but in this case you are mistaken. At least about the Senate----a less then 1% vote 1 way or the other certainly is not a "message" by vote. The majority that you speak of is about 1600----which in could easily be 1600 the other way depending on the 3rd and non voters.
 
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