Stock Bedding questions.

[kmw1954]

Looking to venture into my very first restocking with a Savage Model 11 and as many of you should know I'm looking at using a wood stock. At this point it is either a Richards Microfit or a Boyds Spike Camp. Been looking extensively at both. Have also been reading all the forums, asking questions and watching as many useful videos as I can. Lord knows I've already asked many here.

Today while again on Boyds site and running the configure app there is an option to pillar bed their stocks, it sure isn't cheap, and I then started wondering if it is really necessary to do both Action Bedding and Pillar Bedding. It would appear to me that Pillar bedding would negate any advantage of action bedding as one is only going to seat the action as deep as the pillars will allow. Is that correct or wrong?

Is there an advantage to one over the other?

 

[LoonWulf]

My take on it is that one or the other is it advantageous but doing both is preferred.
The pillar provides you with a constant tension on your action screws as well as a hard stop for your action seating.
Glass bedding of your action provides stability to the action as a whole, and a consistent return to position after flexing.

Again that's just my layman's take on it. If going for one of the other I prefer to have the action fully bedded as opposed to pillars.

 

[Varminterror]

I then started wondering if it is really necessary to do both Action Bedding and Pillar Bedding.

“Pillar blocking” really isn’t bedding. We install pillars between the action bedding and the bottom metal (also skim bedded) to support the stock against compression by the action screws. In practice, the pillars should be sunken slightly sub-surface to avoid actual contact with the action - the pillar supports the bedding, the bedding supports the action. I use shims between my action and my pillars when bedding the action, which are later removed, to ensure there’s no actual contact between the pillar and the action. This clearance method was taught to me by the smith I apprenticed under over 20yrs ago, and I went back and forth between spacing and pillar contact methods for several years, until spacing was then reaffirmed to me by Boyd Allen about 12yrs ago, and I have left clearance for my pillars ever since.

The actual bedding is the “bed” of epoxy into which the action lays. It’s the uniform and consistent mold of the action which ensures the action cannot move relative to the stock.

Consider this: Concrete slabs often have footings beneath them. The slab serves a different purpose than the footings, and vice versa. The slab must be strong enough to not fracture under the load of whatever is on top of it, whereas the footings bear the slab such the slab doesn’t shift or settle relative to the subsoil.

So pillar blocking and glass bedding are not competitive options, they’re supplemental. Two different methods for two different purposes. Glass bedding can be done without pillar blocking, but it leaves the rifle vulnerable to compression of the stock wood, or vulnerable to variable swelling/shrinking of the wood during humidity and environmental swings. Synthetic/composite stocks and aluminum chassis may not need pillars at all because they aren’t susceptible to environmental shifts. Pillar blocking really shouldn’t be done without glass bedding, as it does not properly support the action alone, and doesn’t do anything to cradle/bed the action to prevent shifting within the stock.

In process, we typically set the pillars into the stock, then we build the bedding up to match the level of the pillars, both whether using a clearance method or a contact method. This can be done in one step, but is often easier when done in two steps (three for Ruger M77’s).

 

[kmw1954]

Varminterror, That was an excellent explanation. Have a very clear picture now that makes sense. Thanks!

 

[243winxb]

Great info already posted above.

Before pillars were invented, i let Brownells Acraglas run down the stocks action screw holes when bedding. . This acted like todays metal pillars.

Always drill the glassed hole larger then the action screws diameter. This lets the recoil lug work properly.

 

[JFrank]

Richards micro fit stocks leave a lot of work to be done by the end user, Boyds ain't nothing to write home about either but since that's the options here ill say you may not even notice or shoot the difference with or without pillars and bedding.
I would establish a base line of accuracy first.

Example; I have a Savage comp rifle that has never been bedded that shoots incredibly well with near 2000 rounds down the barrel.

 

[Varminterror]

Great info already posted above.

Before pillars were invented, i let Brownells Acraglas run down the stocks action screw holes when bedding. . This acted like todays metal pillars.

Always drill the glassed hole larger then the action screws diameter. This lets the recoil lug work properly.

Agreed on both counts:

1) “Epoxy pillars” are an easy go-to when a guy doesn’t want to take time to make their own tubes or pay for a retail option. I wrap the action screws with tape to create an offset and center the screw in the bore (or use proper stock makers screws), which I do even when using metal pillars, then slide this inside a big diameter straw, rubbed with release agent, and I counter bore the stock to leave >1/8” clearance around the straw to be filled by the epoxy. OR I counter bore a large diameter (would have to measure mine to recall the diameter) bore, fill it completely with epoxy, then redrill the action screw holes using a drilling fixture/guide.

2) The screw should be roughly centered within the pillar, not contacting anywhere at the sides. The action body in the bedding ensures alignment doesn’t shift in the stock side to side and torsionally (waggle), and the recoil lug catches the recoil - the screws should only be imparting the normal pressure to hold the action into the stock with no lateral or longitudinal pressures.

 

[jmr40]

Another reason to bed the action. A wood stock is going to expand and contract as environmental conditions change. There is nothing that can be done about that. With the action bedded the wood is never actually in contact with the action and can expand/contract with less effect on accuracy.

Prior to the introduction of synthetic stocks it wasn't unusual for some to glass bed the entire stock including the barrel channel. Some gun builders still prefer to do it that way. I may be wrong, but it is my understanding that Kenny Jarrett prefers that method even with synthetic stocks.

Jarrett Rifles - The World's Most Accurate Hunting Rifles - Jackson, SC

 

[LoonWulf]

I use shims between my action and my pillars when bedding the action, which are later removed, to ensure there’s no actual contact between the pillar and the action. This clearance method was taught to me by the smith I apprenticed under over 20yrs ago, and I went back and forth between spacing and pillar contact methods for several years, until spacing was then reaffirmed to me by Boyd Allen about 12yrs ago, and I have left clearance for my pillars ever since.

Ive never tried that!
Ive always just contacted the action with the pillars.....if I re-bed either of my new rifles ill try giving them a slight gap on the pillars. How much of a gap do you use?

 

[Skylerbone]

Ive never tried that!
Ive always just contacted the action with the pillars.....if I re-bed either of my new rifles ill try giving them a slight gap on the pillars. How much of a gap do you use?

couldnt you just mill them down from the inside? A countersink should make quick work of brass or aluminum pillars.

 

[kmw1954]

Now this is contrary to a few videos I've watched were they have left the pillars slightly proud of the stock and then the bedding fills in the gap.

 

[Varminterror]

Ive never tried that!
Ive always just contacted the action with the pillars.....if I re-bed either of my new rifles ill try giving them a slight gap on the pillars. How much of a gap do you use?

The idea: epoxy shrinks slightly when curing, so in theory - if an action is setting on the pillars when glass bedded, when the epoxy is “wet” it will be even with the pillar, but as it cures, it will draw away from the action, leaving the pillar slightly proud of the epoxy, effectively negating the purpose of the bedding (which was meant to eliminate high/pressure points). By using a shim on top of the pillars during the glass bedding work, we ensure the bedding won’t shrink below the height of the pillar once cured.

I did the math on how much shrink to expect years ago, but forget how much it ended up. Very, very small. I have 5 thou and 10thou shimstock, I tend to cut the first one I find in the drawer.

couldnt you just mill them down from the inside? A countersink should make quick work of brass or aluminum pillars.

I’ve done this as well, but it’s more work, more time. I usually use a facing cutter to shorten my pillars on the bottom side, cutting flush or slightly proud to allow skim bedding of the bottom metal, but I tend to find it faster to simply use the shims instead of cutting afterwards. I use a set of stock makers screws for most actions, so the shim stays captured with the action when removing from the cured bedding, leaving the clearance void behind - meaning no extra work in process. But facing the pillars works too.

I’ve especially done this when making my own pillars, or skim bedding a good fitting inlet - just dress down the pillar to get it sub-surface and then thinly skim bed.

It all works.

 

[kmw1954]

I have realized one thing already. Before I start my work on a new stock I am going to re-read this whole topic again before I begin anything!

 

[Varminterror]

Now this is contrary to a few videos I've watched were they have left the pillars slightly proud of the stock and then the bedding fills in the gap.

Yes, the pillar should be slightly proud of the stock inlet to leave room for the bedding compound, but once bedded, the pillar should be sub-surface of the bedding. BUT....!!!

THE PROBLEM WITH LEAVING THE PILLAR PROUD TO THE STOCK - YOU HAVE RAISED THE ACTION IN THE INLET, FOR ABSOLUTELY NO REASON.

What should be done instead: set the pillars flush with the stock I nlet in the first step, then hog out material in the inlet to leave the pillars proud from the wood, making room for the bedding material. This gives us room for a proper thickness of bedding material, but also retain the designed and intended action position within the stock. We can keep the tail of the tang, the bolt handle, safety, bolt release, etc positioned where they are supposed to be in the stock, AND have thick rigid bedding.

“Skim bedding,” which sets the pillars flush with the stock but does not relieve the inlet, was effectively invented to let us gunsmiths be lazy and not hog out as much material. I don’t care for thin bedding if I’m doing a proper bedding job, so I go wild with the router and dremel when relieving the action to make room for bedding. I only skim when I’m - you guessed it - being lazy with one of my rifles (or freshening up a worn bedding job).