Zundfolge
Member
Jim, I don't know what the heck your point was, but now I have to clean coffee off my monitor 
Stop the traitor!
- Thread starter MicroBalrog
- Start date
- Status
jimpeel
Member
Zundfolge
Just a bit of comic relief based on the thread title. Glad you enjoyed it. Cute song.
Just a bit of comic relief based on the thread title. Glad you enjoyed it. Cute song.
Duncan Idaho
member
That would be MicroBalrog. The prolific poster of all of today's over-the-top agitprop.
No worries.
HBK
member
I think characterizing Ashcroft as a traitor is a little harsh.
Hoding US citizens secretly. without laywers.
The aforemention Intel engineer as well as the US citizen they arrested in Chicago for allegedly planning to help with a "dirty bomb". He is being held incommunicado (SP?), no laywer, no trial date.
I believe that there are others still being held from 9/11 (not sure) the govement admitted they were holding people in secret so how many are still being held that way?.
Ashcroft is trying to protect the US from Terrorists completeley. 1) I do not believe it can, some of the attacks ,IMHO , will get through. 2) Holding US citizens ( Yes he was a gang banging, crook, scumball but he is a US citizen. ) arrested on US soil, with nothing illeagle on him, holding him without court appearances, not letting him have a laywer, not letting him communicate is abusing ALL of our consitutional rights.
These are the examples the goverment chooses to let us know about, I hope they are being truthfull but given their record I doubt it
Yes, he state he believes in the right to own firearms but if you read the full statement I believe ( and as always I can be wrong ) that there was something in the statement as well about having reasonable goverment control (or did he say reasonable goverment regulation, different words same meaning ).
Yes he is better than Janet Reno from my admittedly biased point of view, Yes he is trying to protect us in the US from harm (impossible IMHO )
But
He scares the Bejjeebers out of me.
I hope I am wrong in my opinion.
NukemJim
greyhound
Member
How come here in the US we always see stories about Isreali cab and bus drivers going about armed? I bet if you asked an average citizen here, they would say that everyone in Isreal carries guns. Just an opinion, but I bet its the mandatory military service that does it.
I personally am amazed to hear that Isreal is anti-gun.
seeker_two
Member
Jose Padilla, anyone?...
I think Ashcroft has acted like a mad dog in too many areas, I think Reno was worse
How any one can draw a comparison between these two (other than they were both AG) is beyond me.
Last I heard JA hadn't incinerated any American men, women and children or kidnapped children using machine gun toting troopers- a bit more severe a problem than possibly rousting the wrong illegal immigrant.
How any one can draw a comparison between these two (other than they were both AG) is beyond me.
Last I heard JA hadn't incinerated any American men, women and children or kidnapped children using machine gun toting troopers- a bit more severe a problem than possibly rousting the wrong illegal immigrant.
Aside from the concrete examples already mentioned, please stop and consider the Patriot Act for a moment. If the plain wording of the doucment isn't blatantly unAmerican, if it doesn't scare you, consider this:
What would America be like with those sweeping powers in the hands of Hillary Clinton? With a Janet Reno type for AG? Maybe Al "No controlling legal authority" Gore? Or James Carville? Or Barbara Boxer? Or....
Did you not hear about the two people in Chicago who shouted at Clinton during a parade and were arrested for making a THREAT? THey shouted, "You suck!" What could Janet Reno have done to those two people with the Patriot Act? We'd never have seen them again. Or consider the people who tried to blow the whistle on Clinton's criminal dealings in Arkansas. THey'd be deep sixed. (One of the most prominent of those folks is a friend of mine, and had enough trouble just with the IRS during the Clinton regime.)
Would it stop there? How about our own Jim March? Making things very unpleaseant for the Million Moron March? And for crooked anti-gun politicos in Califorina? Say bye bye, Jim. No, you won't get the chance - he'll just disappear.
The Patriot Act is Amerika the Police state. It's just waiting for the right administration.
I don't doubt Ashcroft and Bush mean well. I don't doubt that right now they're only targeting bad guys. But who will Hillary target? And who will stop her?
Yeah, THIS administratiion means well. And the result will eventually be the same whether or not they mean well or ill.
Amerika the Police State, brought to you, NOT by the liberals, as I wrongly predicted for many years, but by the Law And Order, My Country Right or Wrong crowd.
Damn. Where's the "weeping bitterly" icon?
Malone LaVeigh
Member
John Ashcroft is a very effective lightning rod for the pretzeldent. Just as Janet Reno was for bubba.
I guess this is where I repeat myself again and say that both of the major parties are tag-teaming us out of our rights to make the world safer for their corporate clients. They each use the opportunities and issues that present themselves at the time that they're in power, but the overall direction never changes.
I guess this is where I repeat myself again and say that both of the major parties are tag-teaming us out of our rights to make the world safer for their corporate clients. They each use the opportunities and issues that present themselves at the time that they're in power, but the overall direction never changes.
Tamara
Senior Member
Malone,
Corporations alone don't bother me too terribly much; Bill Gates has never stormed my house with submachinegun-toting agents to force me to buy Windows.
It's when corporations start buying legislators that they worry me.
Corporations aren't going anywhere, and neither are legislastors. The trick is to make the latter an unprofitable investment.
I'm open for suggestions.
Corporations alone don't bother me too terribly much; Bill Gates has never stormed my house with submachinegun-toting agents to force me to buy Windows.
It's when corporations start buying legislators that they worry me.
Corporations aren't going anywhere, and neither are legislastors. The trick is to make the latter an unprofitable investment.
I'm open for suggestions.
Malone LaVeigh
Member
Tamara,
In a lot of places in the world it's worth your life to criticize or threaten the profits of a corporation, including US corps. Ever heard of Ken Saro-Wiwa? I'm not saying we're at that point in this country, yet. It's where we're heading that bothers me.
In a lot of places in the world it's worth your life to criticize or threaten the profits of a corporation, including US corps. Ever heard of Ken Saro-Wiwa? I'm not saying we're at that point in this country, yet. It's where we're heading that bothers me.
Nope. Enlighten us, please.
While I generally agree with Tam that gummit is more dangerous, I recommend keeping an eye on large corporatioins, too. THey can get too big fer their britches, and ANY concentration of power is dangerous.
One of the worst decisions to come out of SCOTUS was when they decided that corporations are persons created byt hte state and have all the rights of natural persons. Absent that and we could have some REAL campaign finance reform that would NOT trample individual rights.
Y'know, Diesel was traveling America to promote his new engine design when he disappeard out west. He never was found. Now, there's a lot that could happen to a traveler in those days, so there's not much there to pin a suspicion on.
But he designed his engines to run on vegetable oil, and after his death they were re-designed to run on petroleum.
agricola
Member
Ken Saro-Wiwa was a Nigerian activist opposed to the massive corruption that exists in that country between various Western oil companies (Shell and BP mostly) and the Nigerian government (as well as the British Government who have always had some kind of hand in there since independence), which has had the effect of keeping what could well have been one of the shining jewels of postcolonial Africa locked firmly in the mess that so dominates that continent.
He was so successful in creating an opposition that for a brief period he ran Shell out of his Ogoniland home - but as a result the Nigerian government attacked his movement, killed some of his supporters and arrested and eventually executed Saro-Wiwa.
He was so successful in creating an opposition that for a brief period he ran Shell out of his Ogoniland home - but as a result the Nigerian government attacked his movement, killed some of his supporters and arrested and eventually executed Saro-Wiwa.
Malone LaVeigh
Member
http://www.goldmanprize.org/recipients/recipientProfile.cfm?recipientID=45
(Trying to get back on topic)
If we're losing our freedoms and power to corporations or government (and increasingly, let's face it, it's the same thing), "traitor" is not too strong a word to use. However, we should resist focusing on characters like Ashcroft or Reno. They're just doing what their bosses want them to do.
http://www.commondreams.org/views02/1226-04.htm
http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0729-07.htm
(Trying to get back on topic)
If we're losing our freedoms and power to corporations or government (and increasingly, let's face it, it's the same thing), "traitor" is not too strong a word to use. However, we should resist focusing on characters like Ashcroft or Reno. They're just doing what their bosses want them to do.
Maybe the tide is begining to turn on that concept:
http://www.commondreams.org/views02/1226-04.htm
http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0729-07.htm
Malone, that is WONDRFUL STUFF! (Despite being posted on a liberal site.)
And those who don't know what we are talkikng about , PLEASE go read the link. It is far more iimportant than you understand, if the concept is new to you. Simply put, the idea that corporations are persons under the law, and entitled to all the protections thereof, is a source of great damage to individual freedom.
I did find one problem with the article, though:
Uh, the Founding Fathers didn't intend democracy to be- at all. THey founded a Republic, for very good reasons. THey FEARED democracy.
But what can you expect from a bunch of liberals?
And those who don't know what we are talkikng about , PLEASE go read the link. It is far more iimportant than you understand, if the concept is new to you. Simply put, the idea that corporations are persons under the law, and entitled to all the protections thereof, is a source of great damage to individual freedom.
I did find one problem with the article, though:
Uh, the Founding Fathers didn't intend democracy to be- at all. THey founded a Republic, for very good reasons. THey FEARED democracy.
But what can you expect from a bunch of liberals?
kentucky bucky
Member
WHAT'S WRONG WITH YOU PEOPLE???
With all the leftist, freedom hating, gun hating, commy leaning, weak kneed, pansy, convict coddling, unpatriotic, liberal scum politicians in Washington, DC, why on earth do you hate John Ashcroft? The only phrase that I can think of is " DIVIDE AND CONQUER ". Is this your game? It sure seems like it to me. Don't bother with your well rehearsed comeback, your tactics are clear to me.
With all the leftist, freedom hating, gun hating, commy leaning, weak kneed, pansy, convict coddling, unpatriotic, liberal scum politicians in Washington, DC, why on earth do you hate John Ashcroft? The only phrase that I can think of is " DIVIDE AND CONQUER ". Is this your game? It sure seems like it to me. Don't bother with your well rehearsed comeback, your tactics are clear to me.
How sick !!
To call our AG a traitor is pure stupidity. How easy for some of you "experts" to sit back with little responsiblity, for the safety of millions, and the worst terrorist attack in USA history and instruct us. Most simply vomit out what they have read or heard someone else say and then come off like experts and act like they know what they are talking about. John Ashcroft a traitor ? How pathetic and ignorant can you be ?
To call our AG a traitor is pure stupidity. How easy for some of you "experts" to sit back with little responsiblity, for the safety of millions, and the worst terrorist attack in USA history and instruct us. Most simply vomit out what they have read or heard someone else say and then come off like experts and act like they know what they are talking about. John Ashcroft a traitor ? How pathetic and ignorant can you be ?
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
Benjamin Franklin
Have either of you ever read anything by our Founding Fathers?
Have you even read the Constitution that John Ashcroft is trashing?
Truth time: Have you read it?
Benjamin Franklin
Have either of you ever read anything by our Founding Fathers?
Have you even read the Constitution that John Ashcroft is trashing?
Truth time: Have you read it?
"How easy for some of you "experts" to sit back with little responsiblity, for the safety of millions, and the worst terrorist attack in USA history and instruct us."
While you are getting off your horse, it would be well to remember that the number of people killed in the 9/11 attacks is roughly equal to one month's traffic fatalities. The total results of the attack, not the semi-hysterical reaction, is not noticeable in any measure of US GDP, and barely noticeable over a 8-year span in NYC. All the legislation impinging on our lives via the 'Patriot Act', destroying the airline industry thru the TSA, and on and on, is not likely to have stopped the original 9/11 attack, nevermind any future sucessors.
Consider the cost of the attack, and then consider the much higher costs of the response. If Conventional Wisdom claims the only way you can save the village is to destroy it, then you should really find another way to approach the situation.
"With all the leftist, freedom hating, gun hating, commy leaning, weak kneed, pansy, convict coddling, unpatriotic, liberal scum politicians in Washington, DC, why on earth do you hate John Ashcroft?"
Because, as Americans, we are free to express whatever opinion we care to about any politican or political appointee. It is our duty to do so if the claim has a factual basis. Calling Ashcroft a traitor may be excessive, but as yet may bear itself out.
While you are getting off your horse, it would be well to remember that the number of people killed in the 9/11 attacks is roughly equal to one month's traffic fatalities. The total results of the attack, not the semi-hysterical reaction, is not noticeable in any measure of US GDP, and barely noticeable over a 8-year span in NYC. All the legislation impinging on our lives via the 'Patriot Act', destroying the airline industry thru the TSA, and on and on, is not likely to have stopped the original 9/11 attack, nevermind any future sucessors.
Consider the cost of the attack, and then consider the much higher costs of the response. If Conventional Wisdom claims the only way you can save the village is to destroy it, then you should really find another way to approach the situation.
"With all the leftist, freedom hating, gun hating, commy leaning, weak kneed, pansy, convict coddling, unpatriotic, liberal scum politicians in Washington, DC, why on earth do you hate John Ashcroft?"
Because, as Americans, we are free to express whatever opinion we care to about any politican or political appointee. It is our duty to do so if the claim has a factual basis. Calling Ashcroft a traitor may be excessive, but as yet may bear itself out.
AmericanFreeBird
Member
- Joined
- Dec 30, 2002
- Messages
- 172
An Attorney General IS supposed to uphold the law. As a matter of fact ALL of them.
American law are heirarchal, meaning that we have various levels of law and they go from highest to lowest. Each and everyone of us, including the Attny. Gen. are responsible for upholding all the laws. A higer law that says, for instance, "...The Right of The People to keep and bear Arms, Shall not be Infringed." When it comes in contact with a lower law such as the Gun Control Act of 1968 supercedes the lower law and makes it null and void.
The Attny. Gen. who enforces a lower law that contradicts a higher law is violating his oath of office. Though maybe not considered a traitor he is unfit to serve.
Impeach him or fire him or whatever they do to Attny's gen. when they go bu-bye.
American law are heirarchal, meaning that we have various levels of law and they go from highest to lowest. Each and everyone of us, including the Attny. Gen. are responsible for upholding all the laws. A higer law that says, for instance, "...The Right of The People to keep and bear Arms, Shall not be Infringed." When it comes in contact with a lower law such as the Gun Control Act of 1968 supercedes the lower law and makes it null and void.
The Attny. Gen. who enforces a lower law that contradicts a higher law is violating his oath of office. Though maybe not considered a traitor he is unfit to serve.
Impeach him or fire him or whatever they do to Attny's gen. when they go bu-bye.
I see no reason to believe he is a traitor in the normal sense of the word. As I've said, I think he MEANS well. I think he loves this country. I think he's an honorable man. Same for GW.
They're just WRONG. And the results of this administration's policies will be disastrous to freedom. Good intentions don't guarantee good results. The end of this all will be just as bad as if they HAD been traitors.
grampster
Member
This thread is keenly interesting. The pendelum swings from way left (microbalrog) to way right (Kentucky bucky) swinging by a bunch between.
I've been reading "The Federalist Papers" lately and am struck by how the debate I'm seeing here is just exactly what was envisioned by "Publius"in many ways.
Maybe there is hope for the Union if there are more like us, who are willing to civily debate these issues and then stand up for what is right. The key is the standing up when the talkin is done and fire up yer neighbors.
There have been erosions of freedom and for the reasons envisioned by the authors of the Papers. But not necessarily for all of the reasons they envisioned. They were worried about factionalism eroding the freedoms that were available at the time of the founders, but figured that a Constitutional Republic with representative government would guard against that erosion. They depended on the fact that sober men of good will would inhabit the halls of power (for the most part) and that the citizenry would participate in governance by placing men of that caliber there, and remove them if they were not. Scoundrels cross the timelines. The key is to remove them. We don't have much of a national track record in that regard. (Robert Byrd, Clinton, he and she etc)
But that factionalism exists today within the Republican and Democrat parties. The problem is it is like two dogs fighting over the same bone. They blame and obstruct each other, but not, many times, in the best interest of the country. They each want the money and the power that goes with the money. It is all about that at the end of the day, unfortunately. A good example of what I'm talking about is Hillary's blaming of Bush for the power failure when her party obstructs his energy policy of deregulation and upgrading the delivery systems for energy. We won't say anything in this discussion about her party's obstruction of nuclear (nucular) power plants, and the stultification of coal fired energy or exploitation or our own natural resources in a ecologicaly sound way. Instead of building safe, clean, cheap nuclear power plants, the politicoes are in thrall to the ecoterrorists who insist on using natural gas and soon our winter home natural gas bill will be more than the national debt. Dems obstruct the appointment of federal judges. Why? Because Republicans obstructed Clinton appointees. The Repubs were not quite as ruthless and belicose as the Dems however. "I' ll show you mine if you show me yours".... Those folks act like school kids and we continue to re elect them. We have two of those blissninnies in Michigan, Sen Lenin (Levin) and Sen Stab you now (Stabenow).
I have supported Republicans since my 30's, (when I started to earn a little money through hard labor at the sales game). I felt then and feel even more strongly today that when considering the two parties, both of them want my money and power over me. The Dems steal my money at the point of the gun and threat of incarceration and ruination of life and liberty.
Try not paying your taxes or carrying a firearm with out being licensed like a spayed dog if you don't believe me. The Republicans loose the "Robber Barons" of big industry. The plus here is that I can avoid those critters, mostly. I don't have to buy their products at the point of the gun and most republicans respect our a priori rights. I'll pick those whom I can avoid over those who want to issue me papers and submit me to check lanes. I am beginning to worry about the Repubs, though.
With respect to the Patriot Act, I seem to see an awful lot of bad guys getting their hind quarters locked up lately. That is a good thing. I think we should be concerned about the Act and make sure that it gets revised or is sunset when appropriate. That is why it is critical to get good people elected. The problem still remain......The sheeple. They hold our fate in their hands and they need to wake up. Maybe if a couple of abuses happen they will.....I don't know.......not that I want that to happen.....
The major miscalculation made by the founders was the evolution of "The Sheeple" and the deep abiding lust of the Sheeple for the "Nanny State".
I wouldhave thought 911 would have woken them up. I am not certain they have come awake.....they may have rolled deeper into a fetal position. END OF RANT
grampster
I've been reading "The Federalist Papers" lately and am struck by how the debate I'm seeing here is just exactly what was envisioned by "Publius"in many ways.
Maybe there is hope for the Union if there are more like us, who are willing to civily debate these issues and then stand up for what is right. The key is the standing up when the talkin is done and fire up yer neighbors.
There have been erosions of freedom and for the reasons envisioned by the authors of the Papers. But not necessarily for all of the reasons they envisioned. They were worried about factionalism eroding the freedoms that were available at the time of the founders, but figured that a Constitutional Republic with representative government would guard against that erosion. They depended on the fact that sober men of good will would inhabit the halls of power (for the most part) and that the citizenry would participate in governance by placing men of that caliber there, and remove them if they were not. Scoundrels cross the timelines. The key is to remove them. We don't have much of a national track record in that regard. (Robert Byrd, Clinton, he and she etc)
But that factionalism exists today within the Republican and Democrat parties. The problem is it is like two dogs fighting over the same bone. They blame and obstruct each other, but not, many times, in the best interest of the country. They each want the money and the power that goes with the money. It is all about that at the end of the day, unfortunately. A good example of what I'm talking about is Hillary's blaming of Bush for the power failure when her party obstructs his energy policy of deregulation and upgrading the delivery systems for energy. We won't say anything in this discussion about her party's obstruction of nuclear (nucular) power plants, and the stultification of coal fired energy or exploitation or our own natural resources in a ecologicaly sound way. Instead of building safe, clean, cheap nuclear power plants, the politicoes are in thrall to the ecoterrorists who insist on using natural gas and soon our winter home natural gas bill will be more than the national debt. Dems obstruct the appointment of federal judges. Why? Because Republicans obstructed Clinton appointees. The Repubs were not quite as ruthless and belicose as the Dems however. "I' ll show you mine if you show me yours".... Those folks act like school kids and we continue to re elect them. We have two of those blissninnies in Michigan, Sen Lenin (Levin) and Sen Stab you now (Stabenow).
I have supported Republicans since my 30's, (when I started to earn a little money through hard labor at the sales game). I felt then and feel even more strongly today that when considering the two parties, both of them want my money and power over me. The Dems steal my money at the point of the gun and threat of incarceration and ruination of life and liberty.
Try not paying your taxes or carrying a firearm with out being licensed like a spayed dog if you don't believe me. The Republicans loose the "Robber Barons" of big industry. The plus here is that I can avoid those critters, mostly. I don't have to buy their products at the point of the gun and most republicans respect our a priori rights. I'll pick those whom I can avoid over those who want to issue me papers and submit me to check lanes. I am beginning to worry about the Repubs, though.
With respect to the Patriot Act, I seem to see an awful lot of bad guys getting their hind quarters locked up lately. That is a good thing. I think we should be concerned about the Act and make sure that it gets revised or is sunset when appropriate. That is why it is critical to get good people elected. The problem still remain......The sheeple. They hold our fate in their hands and they need to wake up. Maybe if a couple of abuses happen they will.....I don't know.......not that I want that to happen.....
The major miscalculation made by the founders was the evolution of "The Sheeple" and the deep abiding lust of the Sheeple for the "Nanny State".
I wouldhave thought 911 would have woken them up. I am not certain they have come awake.....they may have rolled deeper into a fetal position. END OF RANT
grampster
rock jock
Member
OK, let's all sing together:
Jose Padilla
You are a friend of mine
I could care less if you cause a death (or a hundred)
As long as its not mine
Did you plot with those Al Queda?
That's OK by me
As long as you bring chaos
'Cause that's what I like to see
Jose Padilla
You are a friend of mine
I could care less if you cause a death (or a hundred)
As long as its not mine
Did you plot with those Al Queda?
That's OK by me
As long as you bring chaos
'Cause that's what I like to see
- Status
