stopped by off duty deputy at Wal-Mart

[speedycat]

I was at Wal-Mart in Jackson County WV last night with a friend to pick up some 9mm. I was open carrying my G19 in its holster. We went back to sporting goods where a man with a young boy was talking to the cashier. The cashier stopped to assist me, I purchased my ammo, thanked the man and proceeded to leave when I heard an "excuse me!" I turned around and the man (in civilian clothes) had pulled out his wallet and flashed a badge at me. He wanted to see my concealed weapon permit and some ID. (note: you do not need a permit of any kind to OC in WV)

Regardless, I complied and gave him my papers. He also wanted me to remove my weapon from his holster. I slowly took it out, dropped the mag and took the round out of the chamber and handed it to him muzzle down and in slide lock. He called it in, ran my info and the serial on the gun. He kept saying how "odd" and "unusual" it was to see someone OC'ing. When he hung up I asked "Are you satisfied?" He said "Yes" and set my weapon on the counter. With his permission I reloaded my weapon and secured it in my holster.

I started to leave and he said "woah I'm not done with you yet!" I asked if I was being detained, to which he replied "No, I'm still checking you out" I asked again if I was being detained and he said "No" I asked if I was free to go and he again told me "No" I asked to see his badge again so I could get his name. He responded with "You damn sure can!" I can kick myself so hard for being unable to recall the name on the badge, but he was a Jackson County Deputy Sheriff. So I stood there and waited with him, his son, my friend and the cashier in very awkward and uncomfortable silence until his phone rang back and they told him I was indeed a law abiding citizen. I sure didn't feel like one during all this. I felt like I had done something wrong when I had not. It was an awful feeling. He told me I could go and to "stay out of trouble" I gathered my things and we left.


Is this a normal interaction with LE especially those who are off duty for people who OC? It was my first. I hope it's my last.

 

[heyjoe]

pretty stupid thing for him to do having a young boy with him. if he did that to the wrong person, as in criminal, the boy could wind up being seriously injured or killed.

 

[Mainsail]

I've been there a few times.

The FIRST question is, "Am I being detained?" If he says no, then wish him a nice day and leave. If he demands that you stay, then you are detained and should say nothing more than to ask, "For suspicion of what crime are you detaining me?"

Do not allow him to flash his badge, demand to see it as well as his ID. If it looks legit, then from there on out address him as Officer __________. That will help you remember his name. Take a picture of him and/or his ID with your phone.

If ID or permit is not required, do not surrender them. If he demands the pistol, call 911 from your phone. I would resist surrendering my sidearm by every non-physical thing I could do.

 

[snakeman]

Wow

what a doofus! I believe it's called cop arrogance most get this disease, the few good ones don't.

 

[NavyLCDR]

Is this a normal interaction with LE especially those who are off duty for people who OC?

Only with LEO on a power trip who have no regards to your 4th amendment rights. I doubt if any of our first experiences LEO goes at all like we would hope for.

The very first words out of your mouth when dealing with an aleged LEO in situations like that should be, "Are you detaining me?" If the answer is no, then explain, "Officer, I do not wish to have a voluntary encounter with you, have a nice day." and walk away if the situation allows you to leave. If you are doing something like eating dinner, "Officer, I do not wish to have a voluntary interaction with you, I would like to continue eating my dinner in peace, now, please."

If the aleged officer is not in uniform, and you are being detained, then ask for a uniformed officer to be called to the scene, and if they refuse, explain that you are going to call 911 to request a uniformed officer to the scene.

Know the identification statutes in your state, and statutes regarding notification of carrying/presenting a permit. Do nothing more than the law requires. In Washington, even if being detained, I am not required to show ID unless I am driving a vehicle or actually receiving a written citation for something. I am required to show my CPL, if demanded by the officer, but I am not required to carry my CPL if I am open carrying. I can't show the officer what is not in my possession. If the officer insists upon requiring you to do something that is not required by law, ask for a supervisor to be called.

It is very important to clearly establish, preferrably on recording or in front of witnesses that you are being detained by asking. The first thing you will have to prove in court is if you were detained or if you consented to the encounter. Get that question settled first. If you are being detained, then the burden of proof is upon the officer to prove a legal reason for detaining you.

If there is a question as to whether you were detained or not, the burden of proof will be upon you to prove you were detained. If you were not detained, and you volunteer for the encounter, the rest of your defense is gone.

If you prove you were detained, and the officer cannot prove a legal reason for the detainment, then everything that occurs after that is very likely illegal actions on the officer's part.

I hope this helps. What happened to you sucks. Use it as a learning experience to not let it happen again.

You will find a lot of support at opencarry.org about standing up for your rights.

 

[bikemutt]

There are more than a few folks who dislike the entire concept of lawful open carry, including many who are pro-gun in every other regard. It just is what it is, and unfortunately some LEOs are of that same mindset, you ran into one. They can go beyond just grumbling about open carry as you found out.

 

[NavyLCDR]

They can go beyond just grumbling about open carry as you found out.

Not necessarily legally, though.

 

[bikemutt]

Not necessarily legally, though.

Agreed 100%.

It's a variation on the old story about being in the right for using the crosswalk while also being dead because the car was bigger and tougher.

 

[tnxdshooter]

I was at Wal-Mart in Jackson County WV last night with a friend to pick up some 9mm. I was open carrying my G19 in its holster. We went back to sporting goods where a man with a young boy was talking to the cashier. The cashier stopped to assist me, I purchased my ammo, thanked the man and proceeded to leave when I heard an "excuse me!" I turned around and the man (in civilian clothes) had pulled out his wallet and flashed a badge at me. He wanted to see my concealed weapon permit and some ID. (note: you do not need a permit of any kind to OC in WV)

Regardless, I complied and gave him my papers. He also wanted me to remove my weapon from his holster. I slowly took it out, dropped the mag and took the round out of the chamber and handed it to him muzzle down and in slide lock. He called it in, ran my info and the serial on the gun. He kept saying how "odd" and "unusual" it was to see someone OC'ing. When he hung up I asked "Are you satisfied?" He said "Yes" and set my weapon on the counter. With his permission I reloaded my weapon and secured it in my holster.

I started to leave and he said "woah I'm not done with you yet!" I asked if I was being detained, to which he replied "No, I'm still checking you out" I asked again if I was being detained and he said "No" I asked if I was free to go and he again told me "No" I asked to see his badge again so I could get his name. He responded with "You damn sure can!" I can kick myself so hard for being unable to recall the name on the badge, but he was a Jackson County Deputy Sheriff. So I stood there and waited with him, his son, my friend and the cashier in very awkward and uncomfortable silence until his phone rang back and they told him I was indeed a law abiding citizen. I sure didn't feel like one during all this. I felt like I had done something wrong when I had not. It was an awful feeling. He told me I could go and to "stay out of trouble" I gathered my things and we left.


Is this a normal interaction with LE especially those who are off duty for people who OC? It was my first. I hope it's my last.

Something similar happened here in TN only this was an on duty cop. Long story short the police department got sued. The cop got fired and the permit holder got a butt load of money. At the very least I would be filing a complaint.

I remember when I was younger my car was in the shop. It was going to be there for a week. I didnt live far from work so I walked to and from work. On the fifth night of walking the same route someone in my neighborhood called in that I was a suspicious person. The cops stopped me and started questioning me. I said am I being detained and they said no I said have a nice night and continued walking. They stopped me again and asked for id. I refused to show it and said am I being detained? Again the officers replied no so I kept walking. Finally the third time I was asked for id I got their names and badge numbers and wrote them down and continued walking. The next day I had a family friend who is an attorney contact them. Basically, I filed a formal and written complaint against the officers and they were put on desk duty pending ia investigation. Shortly there after they were fired as was the patrol captain and seargent. Apparently, I was not the only person they had been harrassing on their power trips and it caught up to them. I received a written apology from the chief of police. I could have sued and got a bunch of money but I am not that type of person. Them losing their jobs and not being able to harrass anyone else was good enough for me.



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[armoredman]

Definitely not legal. Almost sounds like someone impersonating.

 

[mongo4567]

I'll second what Mainsail and LavyLCDR said. I'll also politely decline requests for searches of my house or car if asked.

We don't have OC here, but if we did I wouldn't tolerate that kind of interaction. He has a boss and the stuff rolls down hill. I would have filed a formal complaint with his department as soon as the immediate issue was resolved.

 

[MAJ Mike]

Thug with a badge. Guess he was showing off for the boy and the cashier.

 

[Mousegun]

OP, just one state away in Virginia, the VCDL is very active in stopping junk like this. They have open carry meetings at restaurants in towns that are known to be problem children and have made a few bucks in the process.

The police are finally being "educated" as to the proper procedures dealing with open carry in many of these towns and the VCDL is doing a great job keeping the freedom even to a point where it surprises me that not enough pressure has been put on state lawmakers to change the open carry laws if for no other reason as to avoid embarrassment and payouts.

My friend is an active member. I wish we had a group this strong here in Tn. and I am also surprised that TNXDshooter got as far as he did with his situation. The good ole' boy network is alive and thriving in many areas.

 

[19&41]

He certainly wasn't doing it for anyone he works with nor works for.

 

[Steve in PA]

First, you should have asked why he needed to see your permit, if none is required to OC.

Second, once he said you were not detained you should have walked away.

Third, call and lodge a complaint with his department.

 

[Sheldon J]

I have to agree, are you certain that it was simply not someone with a dime store badge.

 

[tnxdshooter]

OP, just one state away in Virginia, the VCDL is very active in stopping junk like this. They have open carry meetings at restaurants in towns that are known to be problem children and have made a few bucks in the process.

The police are finally being "educated" as to the proper procedures dealing with open carry in many of these towns and the VCDL is doing a great job keeping the freedom even to a point where it surprises me that not enough pressure has been put on state lawmakers to change the open carry laws if for no other reason as to avoid embarrassment and payouts.

My friend is an active member. I wish we had a group this strong here in Tn. and I am also surprised that TNXDshooter got as far as he did with his situation. The good ole' boy network is alive and thriving in many areas.

Indeed it is. You see though my attorney friend of the family plays golf with and goes hunting with the attorney general of tn and their parents have known each other for years supposedly. Also, and I am not bragging but AL Gore's grand father and my great grand father were friends and Al is a personal friend of ours. It pays to know people in high places. Love em or hate em. I am a republican but still consider Al's family as friends. Mousegun are you the fella from the Chattanooga area that did the write up on Prentice Cooper WMA?


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[franconialocal]

If I did this to someone off duty my Chief would have my butt in a sling.

 

[OldMac]

I would politely ask for a uniformed officer before handing a stranger my pistol. You must follow thru with a complaint. If you can't remember the name, then send a letter to the police chief, mayor, and your councilman/commissioner/alderman, etc. and describe the officers physical details, dress, accent, and attitude. Most politicians will not tolerate bullies harassing their voters/supporters. Do not let this slide. It will not fix itself.

 

[Mike1234567]

You're trash... a dangerous PIECE OF TRASH!!

Or, MAYBE, the guy with the tiny pistol just wanted to show off for the little kid how IMPORTANT and POWERFUL his pistol is... I mean HE is.

 

[Ole Coot]

Last time I was stopped for speeding by a WVSP officer I had a 45 in the glove compartment on top of my registration & insurance. He asked for those and I told him where they were under a loaded 45 and did he want me to get them. He said OK, I picked the pistol up, laid it on the seat and handed him my DL, reg & ins. He wrote the ticket, handed me my stuff and asked if I had a carry permit for the 45. I said sure, want to see it? He said Nah just slow down. I live in the Southern part of the state and have seen several open carry without any problem. Think I would pick him out in the sheriff's office and complain loudly. I have open carried(by accident) where troopers were in civies and no problems.

 

[AFDavis11]

That's gotta suck. Not many cops actually know the law. I hope you can appreciate that he may actually have been surprised to see someone OC.

If you have a CC license maybe you should start doing that. I don't really understand the whole OC thing, unless it's the only option you have.

 

[Mainsail]

First, you should have asked why he needed to see your permit, if none is required to OC

I'm going to disagree with Steve here. Do not ask questions beyond "Am I being detained?" and "For suspicion of what crime are you detaining me?"

As soon as you ask why he needs to see your permit you are agreeing to the encounter. That opens the door to him furthering the conversation which is something you want to avoid. You cannot claim the encounter wasn't voluntary if you were freely engaging him in a discussion.

 

[walking arsenal]

I suggest writing a letter to the head of law enforcement in your area stating what happened and how unimpressed you where with the interaction.

Personally. I don't stop for anyone unless they're in uniform. I would have told him, politely, to wait and then would have called dispatch and asked them to send a uniformed officer to check this guy out before I did anything he said.

 

[beatledog7]

Sometimes, law enforcement officials do not know the laws under their jurisdiction. Pretty sad.

Sometimes, law enforcement officials sometimes do know the laws under their jurisdiction and instead of respecting those laws they act tough and throw their presumed weight around. Even sadder.

Thankfully, the vast majority of LEOs I've encountered are respectful of both the law and the citizenry. They tend to remain that way as long as that respect is returned.