Strange Guns - How Do I Clear? And more.

[Ironbarr]

Since there are all kinds of firearms that folks own, how can we know the particulars of handling? For instance, this year I had occasion to check out and price a husband's gun collection for his widow. After some fumbling I opened the action to clear for safety before further handling. A couple old revolvers finally gave up their secrets with some careful persuasion.

But the thing that most concerns me is running into an auto not a 1911 or Makarov - and there are many out there. I want to feel comfortable with clearing a "strange" gun. And there have been tales of woe about people handling (even 1911s) guns, particularly autos, and more particularly pistols (SA DA SA/DA and DAO) in an unsafe manner - even when you'd expect them to know better.

So, maybe the TFL/THR brethren and sisterhood could get together in a great thread and describe - at least - the safe handling aspects of their particular arms and/or those arms of their experience.

Maybe this will help someone (like me) to at least know how safely to clear a strange gun.

Thanks for the read.

-Andy

 

[Denver]

Start with the four rules...

When handling ANY firearm, the four rules of safe gun handling will go a very long way toward keeping the experience positive.

Forgive me for repeating them here, but there may be new eyes viewing this thread who have never seen this block of instruction before.

1) Every gun is loaded. Don't PRETEND this is true; KNOW that it is true and handle every gun accordingly.

2) NEVER let the muzzle of a gun point at anything you are not willing to destroy.

3) Keep your finger OFF the trigger (and OUT of the trigger guard!) until you are ready to shoot.

4) Be aware of your surroundings. Know what is between you and the target and what is behind the target. (Since bullets are designed to go THROUGH things!) Consider ricochets and all other terminal ballistic consequences.

(Please forgive me if the following actions are entirely too obvious. Again, there may be new eyes in need of this block of instruction.)

The next thing I find myself doing is looking for guidance from a knowledgeable person who may be in the vicinity. (In the case you describe, Ironbar, I infer that the widow is NOT an authority on the devices.)

Failing detection of an expert nearby, WHILE OBSERVING THE FOUR RULES, I look for any moving part that is NOT THE TRIGGER, seeking first to remove or unload a magazine. Buttons or levers are always a promising start. They are USUALLY located somewhere near where the hands would easily find them.

Whether or not I succeed with that step, WHILE OBSERVING THE FOUR RULES, I proceed to finding the lever or button that unlocks the action so I can observe whether or not there is ammunition in the chamber.

Most guns have no more than three or four controls to deal with, so the process of elimination is relatively simple, as long as one OBSERVES THE FOUR RULES!

For those to whom the Creator has not seen fit to endow a modicum of mechanical inclination, I would say the best course is to do what Ironbar has done: Ask someone.

(Ironbar, from reading other posts of yours, I feel safe saying YOU ARE mechanically inclined. Your post here is to help those who may not feel as gifted, correct?)

(Again, please forgive me if I have offended anyones' intelligence. It's the teacher in me!)

 

[Denver]

The question that pops into my mind is, assuming just ignorance, what guns have people experienced difficulty in clearing for the first time?

Honestly, I experienced a little perplexity the very first time I held a pump action shotgun, but, as Ironbar said, after a little fumbling, I found the action release button, and the rest, as they say...

 

[Hal]

The following comment is directed at no one in particular..

Don't play the big headed part of all knowing gun-nut authority. Know when to say " I don't know".

The smartest people I've known in my life have always been the ones that wern't afraid to say " I don't know." - followed by " But I'll find out". - then they did.

 

[Triad]

IIRC, there is a book which has disassembly instructions for many different guns. If you had such a book you could look up the model you're interested in. If it isn't in the book, you could find models that are similar, which should give you an idea of where to start.

 

[ajacobs]

Don't forget it isn't just the clearing that can be a suprise, for example, my understanding is that some highly specialized skeet/trap shotguns fire when you release the trigger.

 

[Ryder]

I got a little education reading recall notices for my firearms last week.

The Tec-9's firing pin protudes from the bolt face as it travels rearward. This occurs before ejection of the case. I verified this on my unloaded pistol. Pretty spooky to see the firing pin come out well before the ejector appears. The firing pin is probably acting as an ejector on fired casings.

The only way to safely clear a loaded chamber on this gun would be to fire it dry... That hasn't been a problem for me yet.

 

[repsychler]

I have an Iver Johnson top break revolver that I was rather mystified by, but the guy selling it was there and showed me what to do after a minute.

 

[Ironbarr]

Any suggestions on how we can create a thread that will state the clearing method of various firearms - like steps to follow?

If so, most of us will be able to understand the jargon, but newcomers to the shooting world might not understand. Guess the simpler, the better, huh?

-.-. .... .-. .. ... ... .-- .- -. ... --- -.

I know what that says... learned Morse in BSA - hardly used today with all the toys. Merry Christmas, Chris.

-Andy

 

[yayarx7]

The Tec-9's firing pin protudes from the bolt face as it travels rearward. This occurs before ejection of the case. I verified this on my unloaded pistol. Pretty spooky to see the firing pin come out well before the ejector appears. The firing pin is probably acting as an ejector on fired casings.

The only way to safely clear a loaded chamber on this gun would be to fire it dry... That hasn't been a problem for me yet.

My brother had a AD with his tec 9 in his apartment. So be very careful here. luckily no one was hurt. I traded him my Model 85 and sold that gun as fast as I could.

 

[JohnKSa]

I tell my students not to touch a gun if they don't know how to clear it.

I don't know what more can be said that would be true in all cases...

 

[Ironbarr]

Well, from my own "experience"...

with re-entering the gun world after thirty plus years, I had virtually zero knowledge of todays arms (never mind law). Entering a gun shop with the idea of purchasing a handgun was an experience in itself. Fortunately, I lucked out with a fellow willing to spend the time.

I learned what everyone here knows - when a gun is passed to your control, you clear it and prove to yourself it's safe to handle... never mind the clerk just did it in front of you.

Then there's the range (outdoor, in my case) where you're invited to use another's firearm and in the middle of your shoot, the range goes cold and you're required to drop the mag, clear the action, set it down and step back while targets are serviced. Of course, the gun's owner is in the shack with a Pepsi and not available for hints.

There are other situations, no doubt, and not necessarily related to children's safety. I'd like to have had those thirty years to become familiar with different guns, but it didn't happen.

Anyway, I think it useful to have a source in one place - here - where one can bone up on - at the least - clearing different arms for handling.

Just trying to justify my existence, I guess.

-Andy

 

[c_yeager]

I will never forget the time when i had to clear a "mystery pistol" for a patient in an Emergency Room. I was acting like i knew what i was doing and did OK, after some inspection i figured out how to drop the magazine and eject the round in the chamber. For some reason the slide locked back though. ANd when i hit what i THOUGHT was the slide release it turned out to be the take down lever. Next thing i know a have a neat pile of pistol components skittering all over the table-top with about 5 female coworkers watching. I shoved all the pieces in a paper bag and made like i meant to do it. But, it was an good wakeup call, never assume you know what your doing when there is no evidence to support that conclusion.

 

[Ironbarr]

Well, this thread's a bit old, but I'm still looking...

Maybe another pass will have others chime in. Would it be useful to know just exactly what the steps are to clear (your model)? If enough "ayes", the we could start a thread that could be used by all should an occasion arise. I know the Daly 1911A1 and the Makarov 9x18, as I mentioned above, but I don't KNOW any other. And a couple SA rifles and shotties had me fumbling around.

Somehow, I want to know, not think I know.

Ideas?

-Andy

 

[4v50 Gary]

Seven rules to make a modern firearm safe:

1) Muzzle control at all times - point in a safe direction;
2) Keep the finger off the trigger;
3) Engage the safety, if possible;
4) Release the magazine, if possible;
5) Open the action;
6) Empty it, and;
7) Visually and manually inspect to ensure it's safe.

These were the seven steps taught to me back in academy and I teach them to this day. Of course, I go on to explain with some guns when you engage the safety, you might not be able to open the action (1911 & Browning HP).

 

[Ironbarr]

Important, Gary. Thanks. But I have a "but"...

We know the 1911 mag is dropped by depressing the mag release button normally found on the left side of receiver just forward of the grips. BUT, the mag release on a typical (Bulgie, in my case) Makarov is on the bottom, behind the mag floor plate. This is just one example of the differences between two pistols. There are others. That's what I am looking for. I know squat about handling a Glock, don't know if an HK is cleared like a 1911, etc. Son-in-law has a Browning in .380 which I've seen but not handled and I'm told there are some differences there.

Now, if I had an armory full of different firearms, I'd know how each works. I can clear two auto shotguns, a pump .22, a lever carbine in 3030, a single-shot .22 bolt, an H&R single-barrel 12g, and now an AR15. In another life I could clear a Springfield '03 and Garand - BUT (again), there's everything else.

I'm not talking take-down or even field strip... just steps to safely clearing.

I suspect that I'm not alone in this void.

Hopefully I'm "safely clearing" my intent here.

 

[Beetle Bailey]

Ironbarr nope, you aren't alone. . . I have taken apart and re-assembled all my rifles and can field strip my CZ75B compact, but (and living in semi-auto rifle hating California doesn't help) an pretty much clueless with how to clear most semi-auto rifles.

I tell my students not to touch a gun if they don't know how to clear it.

Great point, but what I want to be able to do is learns how to clear as many types of guns as I can. I guess when I meet other shooters I will try to ask how to operate their guns .

 

[cracked butt]

When I took the NRA basic rifle instructor's course several years ago, there was a part of the class where each student had to take a rifle to the front of the room and demonstrate how to operate it and handle it safely.
There was a number of guns to choose from that were brought in by students and instructors.I was assigned the semiauto rifle. The only semiauto was an M1 garand. We had about 2 minutes of prep time for the presentation and I had never handled an M1 before. I remember taking the rifle to the front of the classroom, pulling the bolt back to show how to inspect the chamber, but I could not figure out how to close the bolt again- my best gues was that the button on the left side of the receiver (clip latch release) would let the bolt down- I pushed on it frantically to no avail. I ended up having to ask someone from the audience on how the dang thing worked.


I would imagine giving a speech in front of 30 strangers about a gun that I didn't know much about would be almost to the same level, stresss, and panic that one would have if they found themselves in a situation where they needed a gun to defend themselves with but couldn't figure out how it works.

 

[BryanP]

Cracked Butt,

I've never had to do that in front of an audience but I have cursed under my breath in a gun shop, trying to figure out how to release the bolt on a rifle. Frustrating, ain't it?

Other than following the basic safety rules, I just say "Hey, that's neat. I've never handled one of those before, how do you ...?" I've found very few people who weren't interested in showing off how their toys work.

 

[RGO]

Guns vary so much, it's hard to write up a single document that will teach you how to clear every one of them. Best thing is to get someone who knows the gun to show you. Of course, that's not always possible.

Perhaps this will be of use.
Clearing a weapon

 

[Shaughn Leayme]

Broomhandle Mausers can be fun as most have a fixed magazine and load thru the top of the action, another is the M1912 Steyr pistol.

Never mind Frommer Stop (sp) and the occasional Mars pistol that one can encounter.

Then you have the various specialty pistols (Free pistols, match guns etc).Many of the military arms of various ages can be absolutely mind boggling to the uninitiated and indeed some can be damaged by the novice, in the attempt to clear or make ready.

If it were me, I would run down to the local book store or gun store and purchase as many different weapons manuals as I could find. Almost all of them list the proper clearing and takedown procedures and while you won't find all of the firearms you are likely to encounter listed, the various ways and means of firearm design will make it possible for you to quickly puzzle out what you need to do.

Drop in at the local smith or range and see if you can handle/operate as many different arms as possible. Go to a match or two and many people have no problem walking you thru the various steps of clearing of various arms that are present.

Even the gunrags (at least those dealing with vintage arms) do cover takedown and clearence of many different weapon types.

Hope this helps.

 

[Ironbarr]

RGO...

You have PM.

While there are scads of firearms types out there, but I'd like to see a start on what is current in the carry world. That way we'd have an idea of how to handle a "captured" item. We'd also probably know in advance if it were an inflictor with mishandling.

cracked butt: I hope they showed you how NOT to catch your thumb when pushing down a full clip and releasing the bolt. Got me once... that was enough.

-Andy

 

[JohnKSa]

I'll say it again.

If you don't know how to clear a gun then don't touch it.

Unless you take this approach, you will become more and more dangerous the more you learn about clearing guns.

Why? Because the more you know, the more confidence you have that you know what you're doing. When you come up against a gun like the Intratec that can't be cleared safely without firing if the chamber is loaded, you're going to have an AD because your false confidence will drive you to make an attempt at clearing it even though you don't know the proper method.

There are far too many guns with little idiosyncrasies that will eat your lunch if you just start manipulating levers and pushing buttons. Some older designs have flaws that will allow the gun to fire without the trigger being touched.

You can start a thread asking users to post clearing instructions for various firearms, but then:

1. You have to assume that the posters know what they're doing.
2. You have to be able to comprehend, remember and follow the instructions perfectly even though you may not run across the firearm in question for years to come.
3. There's still no guarantee you're going to get information about the firearm you'll want to clear next week.

You can try hanging out at ranges and asking shooters how to clear their guns, but you run into the same problems.

If you feel you MUST clear an unfamiliar firearm then:

Follow all the safety rules.

Carefully examine the firearm, handling it ONLY by grips or stocks. Do not take hold of any part of the action and don't operate any levers or push any buttons.

Determine the type of firearm.

Put the firearm down in a safe place and locate information regarding the firearm. Call a friend, check the internet, call the manufacturer, contact a local gunsmith. Do your best to get corroborating information from at least two reliable sources.

Follow the instructions. It would be best to do this in a situation where you have a truly safe backstopp--i.e. bullet trap. Like a sand barrel or water trap.

 

[4v50 Gary]

Ironbar - the seven steps work. Along with it I also point out as you've indicated the possible locations of the magazine release. Don't forget about the ambixtreous or reversable release. Some releases are pushed downward either like the Ruger family. The student is made aware of the various locations of the magazine release and how they may operate.

Same with the revolver. Some have cylinder releases on the left side of the frame. On the S&W, you push it forward. On Colts, you pull back. On Rugers, you push in. On some guns it's a top release and you push the rear sight up to break the action open. On others the release is found forward of the cylinder (Dan Wesson) and that is depressed to "open the action." These instructions are also provided to the student (along with several different models so they can see and practice for themselves).

Nor should instructions restrict itself to handguns either. Bolt action, pump action, single shots and various semis should be displayed so that the students can see them and time permitting, render them safe. The bit about engaging the safety, if possible, really requires a short lecture as the student must understand that some actions (with some bolt guns in particular) cannot be operated (like the 1911, Browning HP) if the safety is engaged.

Firearm safety is a best show & tell I've ever conducted and for novices, they enjoy it because they get to safely handle the gun under supervision and develop some confidence in handling.

 

[Ironbarr]

...Gary -

Really good post, thanks.

I know that there's enough info up here, I'm still wondering if there's enough interest for a ARCHIVE type thread to make it work.

We'll see.