Striker Fired versus S/A Accuracy

[TomJ]

I own both striker fired pistols (SA's, Glocks and recently a LG9S Pro) as well as 1911's, CZ's and a Canik. When shooting my striker fired pistols, my accuracy is somewhat embarrassing. At 21 feet I'm within the 7 ring on a B29 target, shooting primarily left but my shots are all over. About 3 weeks ago I was at the range with my SR1911 (Commander), CZ P07 and Canik L120. In single action at 21 feet, I would guess that 70% of my shots were within the 10 ring, with most of the remainder in the 9 ring. My misses, of which there were very few, were in the 8 ring.

I'm absolutely stumped. My SA's and the LC9s feel great ergonomically and i love the trigger pull on them. I'm not that crazy about Glock's ergonomics, but I shoot them just as well (or poorly) as the others. My friends pick up the SA's and are accurate with them, so i know it's me. At this point I'm stumped, as I have no idea why I shoot fairly well in single action and the striker fired ones so poorly. I could understand a slight difference, but not this dramatic. Without seeing me shoot, I understand it's difficult to diagnose, but any tips would be appreciated. I'm going to the range this weekend and am going to try larger grip inserts in the SA's, hoping an adjustment in my grip helps.

 

[Jim K]

Primarily because the striker is usually in the slide while the sear is in the frame, the sear engagement of a striker fired pistol is generally greater (longer) that that of a hammer fired pistol. (Not necessarily heavier, but longer.) That can affect accuracy if the shooter allows the gun to move off target during the time the trigger is being pulled. In addition, the trigger linkage itself is often more complex in the striker fired pistol than in a hammer fired one, resulting in more points where slack needs to be taken up.

The solution, as usual, is more practice; if the pistol is primarily for defense, I strongly recommend concentrating on one pistol or pistol type rather than trying to become expert with several different kinds, something that could lead to problems in a serious situation, such as pulling the trigger on a cocked-and-locked 1911, thinking you have a Glock that day.

Jim

 

[strambo]

By far, the biggest reason for poor shot placement with a handgun is due to poor trigger control. Breaking a shot w/o disturbing the barrel alignment is a lot easier with a light, short, single action pull.

I have a DA/SA Sig...I almost never shoot it SA except for multiple shots. The bulk of my dry and live training with it is DA.

Practice a lot of dry fire with your striker pistols. Your trigger press should be a smooth and steady pull to the rear and the shot should break with the sights still aligned. Don't wait for perfect sights and jerk (accept your wobble). Don't start the press, stop, start again. Constant motion. When you get good the press is really fast, but it is still a constant and smooth press, just done quickly.

You can "prep" the trigger by starting the press as you punch the gun out so the striker falls the instant you are at full extension and confirm sight picture.

If you master the striker (or a DA) gun, your single action shooting will be even better than now.

 

[stu1ritter]

In the days of revolver target shooting all attention was paid to getting the absolute best "glass rod" breaking trigger. Near zero movement to make the shot. The very best 1911 triggers have very little movement and that is what we pay a gunsmith for when doing the trigger, ie: remove all the creep and try to get that "glass rod" break. Just think about how much you have to move that stiker trigger to get anywhere. I've been shooting bullseye competition for 50 years (now a grand senior) and stiker fired guns never made much sense to me if you are looking for accuracy. Just my own opinion.
Stu

 

[TomJ]

I use a variety of guns at the range. I've been carrying Glocks and an XDS 45 primarily as CCW's, as I don't want to mix platforms when carrying, and as Jim referenced wind up with either an AD or not getting a shot off if necessary because while under stress I forgot what I was carrying that day.

I've been thinking about going to CZ's for CC, my P07 when I carry IWB and a Rami when I need something smaller, as I instinctively shoot them so much better. For now, I'll concentrate on dry firing and trigger control and see if I can't tighten the groups up. Thanks for the input.

 

[Comrade Mike]

The better single action trigger helps you to shoot better. You haven't practiced enough with the long striker fired trigger

 

[I6turbo]

TomJ,

Assuming you're shooting two-handed, are you using your support hand for a substantial portion of your grip on the gun so that you stabilize the gun while your trigger finger is free to work the long pull? I'm not a big fan of DA shooting but when I do it seems that focusing on the stabilizing assistance from the support hand is key to any decent accuracy.

 

[TomJ]

TomJ,

Assuming you're shooting two-handed, are you using your support hand for a substantial portion of your grip on the gun so that you stabilize the gun while your trigger finger is free to work the long pull? I'm not a big fan of DA shooting but when I do it seems that focusing on the stabilizing assistance from the support hand is key to any decent accuracy.

I do shoot 2 handed, thumbs forward with the support split evenly between both hands.

 

[ku4hx]

In the days of revolver target shooting all attention was paid to getting the absolute best "glass rod" breaking trigger. Near zero movement to make the shot. The very best 1911 triggers have very little movement and that is what we pay a gunsmith for when doing the trigger, ie: remove all the creep and try to get that "glass rod" break. Just think about how much you have to move that stiker trigger to get anywhere. I've been shooting bullseye competition for 50 years (now a grand senior) and stiker fired guns never made much sense to me if you are looking for accuracy. Just my own opinion.
Stu

I hear ya! Up until 1991, all my shooting was with SA pistols and revolvers with the proverbial "glass rod" trigger. It was almost as if you could "wish off" a shot.

Recently I had Novaks install a Cylinder and Slide tool steel hammer and sear in my BHP and do a trigger job; they did other work too. It does not now have a trigger the equal of a top-of-the-line 1911 trigger, but it's dang close ... very nice.

About a month ago my son and I were shooting my BHP. He now has a couple of my revolvers, but still had at the time zero experience with a really nice semi auto trigger. He shot my "new" BHP and didn't want to give it up. Going back to his Glocks, his groups initially opened up a good deal.

What's sort of sad to me is the multitude of "new age" semi auto shooters who talk constantly about how good this Glock trigger is, how good this M&P trigger is and so forth. My son was like that ... now he knows what a really good trigger is.

 

[I6turbo]

I do shoot 2 handed, thumbs forward with the support split evenly between both hands.

As you probably know, some accomplished shooters advocate as much as 70% of overall support/grip come from the support hand. I've experimented for myself and more than what I'd guestimate at approximately 50% feels a little weird to me, but I do shoot more accurately DA when I employ a lot of support-hand support. Might be worth trying the downward angled locked wrist method if you haven't already.

 

[jmr40]

Can't say about all striker fired guns, but my Glocks triggers are every bit as good as most out of the box 1911's. Both are crisp with trigger pulls right at 5-6 lbs. I shoot the Glocks just as well as most 1911's. Many people use the Glock trigger all wrong.

A 1911 with a target trigger, or one that has been worked on is going to be even better. But the difference isn't all that great.

 

[Drail]

I do not believe that striker fired vs. hammer fired has any effect whatsoever on accuracy. There is much more at work here than action type.

 

[Jim K]

To amplify a bit, the main drawback of the striker for a fine trigger pull is that because the striker is in the slide and the sear in the frame, the sear engagement must allow for variation in the frame-slide fit. When the sear and hammer are in the same piece of metal, that variation does not exist and the sear engagement can be more finely adjusted. When the trigger must perform other functions, like moving a firing pin block, getting a fine trigger pull becomes even more difficult.

Even when a striker and sear are in the same piece of metal (the S&W Straight Line is the only example I can think of at the moment), the tolerances necessary for proper functioning usually mean the striker has some degree of up-and-down movement so that the sear can drag the striker down rather than just disengaging from it.

Jim

 

[Phaedrus/69]

A really great trigger can paper over a lot of flaws with your shooting technique. Don't get me wrong- we should want good triggers! But stuff like prepping the trigger and proper follow through are less meaningful with a very short trigger with no overtravel, breaking at 3 lbs. I'm sure Jim K is right when discussing the mechanics of the guns but I think even most striker guns are capable of better intrinsic accuracy than most shooters are.

There is little out there that can compare favorably to a tuned 1911 trigger. But I shoot my HK VP9 as well as I can shoot a 1911. Either the VP9 is a great gun or my shooting sucks!

 

[boatdoc173]

I own both striker fired pistols (SA's, Glocks and recently a LG9S Pro) as well as 1911's, CZ's and a Canik. When shooting my striker fired pistols, my accuracy is somewhat embarrassing. At 21 feet I'm within the 7 ring on a B29 target, shooting primarily left but my shots are all over. About 3 weeks ago I was at the range with my SR1911 (Commander), CZ P07 and Canik L120. In single action at 21 feet, I would guess that 70% of my shots were within the 10 ring, with most of the remainder in the 9 ring. My misses, of which there were very few, were in the 8 ring.

I'm absolutely stumped. My SA's and the LC9s feel great ergonomically and i love the trigger pull on them. I'm not that crazy about Glock's ergonomics, but I shoot them just as well (or poorly) as the others. My friends pick up the SA's and are accurate with them, so i know it's me. At this point I'm stumped, as I have no idea why I shoot fairly well in single action and the striker fired ones so poorly. I could understand a slight difference, but not this dramatic. Without seeing me shoot, I understand it's difficult to diagnose, but any tips would be appreciated. I'm going to the range this weekend and am going to try larger grip inserts in the SA's, hoping an adjustment in my grip helps.

my guess is trigger control and the amount of finger you sink into the guard(onto the trigger). Many other shave the same issue--sometimes you need to use mor e finger-- middle of the tip and a slow deliberate trigger pull to hit accurately with striker fired guns

recently picked up a HK VP(--great shooter---but it took time to adjust from shooting a walther or glock-- each has its own "personality"-- when all else fails--slow down the trigger pull--concentrate on the tip of the front sight

happy shooting

 

[boatdoc173]

shooting is simple

it is just NOT easy-- to be consistent aNYWAY

 

[boatdoc173]

To amplify a bit, the main drawback of the striker for a fine trigger pull is that because the striker is in the slide and the sear in the frame, the sear engagement must allow for variation in the frame-slide fit. When the sear and hammer are in the same piece of metal, that variation does not exist and the sear engagement can be more finely adjusted. When the trigger must perform other functions, like moving a firing pin block, getting a fine trigger pull becomes even more difficult.

Even when a striker and sear are in the same piece of metal (the S&W Straight Line is the only example I can think of at the moment), the tolerances necessary for proper functioning usually mean the striker has some degree of up-and-down movement so that the sear can drag the striker down rather than just disengaging from it.

Jim

thanks Jim

 

[Steve C]

...shooting primarily left but my shots are all over.

Striker fired handguns that are DA-ish take a bit more work to develop skill. The theory of handgun accuracy is still the same as a SA handgun. Align sights on target, press the trigger in line with the barrel without changing the sight alignment and produce a surprise release that then results in the bullet hitting where aimed. A single action handgun makes it a bit easier to get the surprise release as the trigger pull is generally lighter and you press the trigger till it releases the hammer or striker.

boatdoc173 give good advice to improving your accuracy with your Glocks etc. Shooting to the left for a right handed shooter firing a DA handgun is common as during the trigger press and long travel the shooter will often have part of the trigger finger pushing left against the right side of the gun.

First establish a grip on your pistol so the bore line bisect in the middle of the V between your thumb and trigger finger and aligned directly with the forearm between wrist and elbow. When you bring your sight up to your eye they will naturally align when you look down your arm. For me this was something I had to learn because simply picking most handguns up and placing the trigger finger on the trigger engaged most naturally at the first joint usually cants the gun to the right.

Try using the middle of the first pad of your finger to press the trigger directly rearward in line with the bore. This position should allow the trigger finger clearance so it doesn't touch the side of the pistol during the squeeze that pushes the muzzle to the left. The picture below "A" on the left illustrates the space between the trigger finger and the side of my Glock 19 using the middle of the first finger pad for the press vrs "B" on the right where the trigger is hooked at the first joint and the trigger finger lays touching along the right side side of the pistol pressing it too the left during the squeeze.

Dry fire your pistols to practice a smooth straight line DA pull watching your sights to see if you are pushing the gun before the trigger releases.

 

[readyeddy]

Try concentrating your grip with the middle finger of your strong hand and the forefinger of you support hand, and avoid using your pinkies for gripping.

 

[guyfromohio]

I have to be more conscious of my finger position on my striker-fired guns because I find the little trigger do-hickies (some call them safeties) annoy me. When my G19 was my primary carry gun, I got used to it quickly and found the gun to be accurate and consistent, but my forehead and eyebrows became weary of the brass burns. Now that my primary is a decocked da/sa, I find the trigger distracting again.

 

[TomJ]

Steele C,

I'm wondering if that might be my problem, as I tend to use the first knuckle more than the pad of my index finger. We'll be at the range Sunday, and I'll be aware of that.

Thanks,
Tom

 

[strambo]

Smooth, uninterrupted pull straight to the rear. Practice 10-20 dry fire warm ups at 1/2 to 3/4 speed, sights should stay perfect when the shot breaks.

 

[TomJ]

Smooth, uninterrupted pull straight to the rear. Practice 10-20 dry fire warm ups at 1/2 to 3/4 speed, sights should stay perfect when the shot breaks.

I'll give that a try. Thanks.

 

[Mike J]

It has been a while but I used to do dry fire practice about 10 minutes a night. I had an old Ruger P-series DA/SA pistol. I would balance a coin on the front sight & practice with the double action trigger. It is still different from live fire but if you learn to shoot a true double action trigger well you will be able to shoot pretty much anything. Single action triggers are still nicer though.

 

[Ex]

Strider fired or otherwise, I think a tuned SA kicks the snot out of all others.

JMHO of course, but...