Striker fired versus DA/SA, advantage?

[Quincy12]

I understand the difference between the two and have read how some like one or the other or that one or the other is “better”. I also get the perceived advantage of the striker have the same trigger pull from first to last whereas the DA (generally) will have a long, heavy first shot pull and a lighter, shorter pull thereafter. What I don’t get is the possible advantage of the DA/SA. I’ve read here more than once that it has advantages and obviously a number of police forces use that style as well as the military with the M9. So, what’s the pro side of DA/SA?

Thanks, Q

 

[Shipwreck]

Well, I have been shooting a lot over the years. And, in the past, I have carried 1911s, and Glocks, and many other guns.

I also had a near robbery/attempted robbery one day a few years ago. I managed to get away and not use a gun, but I saw how it feels when the adrenaline kicks in. There have been tons of studies showing that your body tenses up in such situations. And, also tons of studies showing how such situations have caused law enforcement to discharge their glocks/striker fired weapons when not intended - sometimes shooting themselves or others by accident.

It is much less likely to have that happen with a gun that is DA/SA - the long, heavier 1st trigger pull greatly decreases this chance.

I personally will no longer carry any gun that isn't DA/SA. It's just my preference. There will be some that are going to post that it is a "training issue." Sorry - I do not completely believe that. People make mistake all day long... Doing paperwork, doing things around your house... Hell driving a car (car wrecks). Some people make the same mistakes several times over. We are not perfect. We are not machines. I personally think DA/SA makes a better and safer carry gun.

 

[JTQ]

For initial presentation, when you are in the "should I shoot or should I not shoot" there is an advantage to the heavier double action pull from a safety perspective. Even the best trained folks end up with their finger on the trigger earlier than they should be and the heavier DA first pull adds a little added safety cushion.

The subsequent lighter SA trigger pull, once you've started shooting, is usually a better trigger pull than your typical striker fired gun.

Since most DA/SA guns are hammer fired, they also allow you to place your thumb on the hammer when reholstering, first to verify it is decocked, and second to make sure the trigger isn't being pulled by something that may have gotten into the trigger guard and is now forcing the trigger back when reholstering. You'll notice the hammer on your thumb and you can stop holstering.

I don't consider the DA first shot to be much of a disadvantage to the design, but remembering to decock is probably the biggest drawback to the DA/SA guns.

 

[Zaydok Allen]

Shipwreck and JTQ both nailed it. It's a safety thing.

 

[Fiv3r]

I have a striker fired gun that I carry daily, but it has a safety which I generally prefer on all of my guns.

However, I do prefer a hammer fired DA/SA over a striker given a choice. I just like the size and shootability of my edc pistol.

I too find the long trigger pull a nice safety feature on a DA/SA.

If I were shooting competitively or some sort of top tier "operator", a striker fired gun is probably a no-brainer. As a civilian that is neither of those things, I like a longer first pull.

But it is personal preference for sure.

 

[Sam1911]

If you practice with it a lot you can become fairly fast at making that first pull, and if you practice with it a lot you can become just as accurate as you would be with a SA or striker-fired first pull. If you don't, you won't. It is the same safety argument made for decades on behalf of double-action revolvers: You probably won't pull that trigger accidentally, the first shot.

And then it changes for all subsequent shots.

On the face of it, it is a laughably inelegant solution to the problem -- I mean it does sort of boggle the mind that with all our calls for precision and consistency in fast accurate shooting we'd actually build many examples of a device that switches how the gun works, what the trigger feels like, and when the shot breaks mid-string! -- but in practice a lot of people have found it to work well enough for them and mentally reassures them of a heightened level of safety.



Sometimes we think of the development of human invention as being a smooth slope upward toward some perfect goal that we're all homing in on. Each new iteration being that much closer to the optimal ever-unreachable ultimate.
DA/SA triggers are a shining example of how that is not always so. Tradition, habit, and the "cultural" inertia of the systems we're born into can hold us in habitual eddys, plateaus or regressions along the path, that we don't break out of easily.

 

[JTQ]

QWERTY keyboard https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QWERTY

 

[Sam1911]

Indeed! And a good example. None of us would be willing to suffer the anguish of trying to learn to type on an alphabetical (or other more logical) format keyboard, though. How many years would that take to relearn? And would it really help anyone do anything truly better?

 

[Tallball]

I like da/sa. For one thing I am middle-aged and that's what I am used to. And I like to know what's going on. At one glance I know if it's cocked or not. I like to have some control. I can cock it or decock it as I wish. In a striker fired pistol all I know is that there is some stuff inside there, and I can't see it.

I have striker fired pistols and they are okay. It's not a huge deal either way. But I do prefer da/sa.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

There have been tons of studies showing that your body tenses up in such situations. And, also tons of studies showing how such situations have caused law enforcement to discharge their glocks/striker fired weapons when not intended - sometimes shooting themselves or others by accident.

Do you have any citations or links to any of those "tons of studies"? I do know of incidents where there were negligent discharges (some on YouTube), and have read of problems caused by something falling into a holster causing a ND when the gun was holstered, but I've not seen or heard of ANYTHING about the situations you describe.

Links or references would be helpful. If there are tons of studies, I'm surprised they're not mentioned frequently on these types of forums. They aren't.

Sometimes we think of the development of human invention as being a smooth slope upward toward some perfect goal that we're all homing in on. Each new iteration being that much closer to the optimal ever-unreachable ultimate.
DA/SA triggers are a shining example of how that is not always so. Tradition, habit, and the "cultural" inertia of the systems we're born into can hold us in habitual eddys, plateaus or regressions along the path, that we don't break out of easily.

I agree. If a Glock trigger is too light, you could go to the heavier NY trigger upgrade. That makes it feel more like a revolver. I'm sure similar upgrades can be found for many striker-fired guns.

And after spending a number of years scoring targets at IDPA matches, I would agree that while "training can solve the DA/SA transition issue" most shooters seem to talk about the effectiveness of such training but far fewer actually walk the walk. (Most will do pretty well after that first shot is out of the way.)

My biggest concern, should I have to use my weapon in a self-defense situation is not an inadvertent first shot, but first or second shots that don't go where they should go. Those are the most important shots I'll get!

.

 

[ATLDave]

Separate and apart from the safety/ND-avoidance issue, some people find that having the "better" trigger pull on all but the first shot is an advantage.

 

[Quincy12]

Thanks for all the thoughtful responses. I follow the logic of wanting a more deliberate action in a SD situation, as the DA revolver.

 

[Shipwreck]

Do you have any citations or links to any of those "tons of studies"? I do know of incidents where there were negligent discharges (some on YouTube), and have read of problems caused by something falling into a holster causing a ND when the gun was holstered, but I've not seen or heard of ANYTHING about the situations you describe.

Links or references would be helpful. If there are tons of studies, I'm surprised they're not mentioned frequently on these types of forums. They aren't.

I have read many articles in various gun magazines, and on gun magazine websites over the years, as well as a few news websites. Such articles have referenced studies done.

I'm sorry - but I just remember reading such things - I cannot provide any references. If you are curious enough, you may be able to do some online searches to find such things. I'm not really going to try to track them down.

I do remember a thread discussing one such study on some gun forum a few months back. BuT, I am on so many forums that I cannot remember which it was.

 

[MIL-DOT]

Well, I have been shooting a lot over the years. And, in the past, I have carried 1911s, and Glocks, and many other guns.

I also had a near robbery/attempted robbery one day a few years ago. I managed to get away and not use a gun, but I saw how it feels when the adrenaline kicks in. There have been tons of studies showing that your body tenses up in such situations. And, also tons of studies showing how such situations have caused law enforcement to discharge their glocks/striker fired weapons when not intended - sometimes shooting themselves or others by accident.

It is much less likely to have that happen with a gun that is DA/SA - the long, heavier 1st trigger pull greatly decreases this chance.

I personally will no longer carry any gun that isn't DA/SA. It's just my preference. There will be some that are going to post that it is a "training issue." Sorry - I do not completely believe that. People make mistake all day long... Doing paperwork, doing things around your house... Hell driving a car (car wrecks). Some people make the same mistakes several times over. We are not perfect. We are not machines. I personally think DA/SA makes a better and safer carry gun.

Agreed. This post couldn't have said it better (and believe me, I've tried,LOL!). Though I'm not at all anti-striker (just got a new Walther PPS for EDC) , the reality of the design makes them inherently less safe than a DA/SA.
We can say that all you need to do is practice all the time, but the reality is that most people don't have the time or the money for that.
We can point out that a striker-fired trigger is going to have a more sensitive,more accurate first shot than a DA pull, but the reality is that 99.9 percent of us will be unholstering and re-holsering that pistol many,many times, while never,ever needing to use it in a self-defense situation.
So many of these various gun arguments end up being based the long-shot hypothetical, while ignoring the day-to-day realities.

 

[45_auto]

Do you have any citations or links to any of those "tons of studies"?

Sounds like Shipwreck is describing the "startle response". It's what makes you "jump" when you're surprised. It's one of the main reasons that you keep your finger off the trigger until you're ready to fire. Hold your hand in position like you have your finger on the trigger. An unexpected event (loud noise, light, unexpected movement, etc) will cause your fingers to tighten into a fist.

Clenching your hand into a fist is part of the involuntary startle response. If you have your finger on the trigger and you are startled or surprised (maybe your kid jumping out of the closet in front of you when you thought there was an intruder in your house), your fingers will involuntarily clench, causing an ND if the trigger is light enough.

http://www.hilaryking.net/glossary/startle-response.html

Definition: Startle Response
The Startle Response is also known as the startle reflex and the alarm reaction.

The alarm reaction is a completely natural, involuntary reaction to a stimulus such as a flash of light, a sudden threatening movement or loud noise. The startle reflex is considered to be innate, being found in newborn babies, in which case it is known as the Moro reflex.

The alarm reaction is brought about by the activation of the Sympathetic Nervous System, SNS, and still occurs even when the stimulus is anticipated and people are trying to stop their reaction, although the strength of the response can be modified.

Research has shown that the startle reaction takes place within milliseconds of the stimulus, in a way that is designed to protect the body from attack. Frank Pierce Jones (1951) showed that the reflex starts with the head which jerks as the neck muscles contract and the eye muscles tighten and blink. Then the response moves down into the torso which flinches; the shoulders raise and arms stiffen, the abdominal muscles contract and the chest flattens, then the knees flex - all this in around one second. Alongside these external changes, breathing and blood pressure levels change and the heart rate accelerates. Interestingly, 'the response begins with extension' and immediately changes to flexion.

Whilst the muscular changes that take place in the startle reaction can return to normal fairly quickly if the danger recedes, breathing and the vascular system take rather longer to calm down, as the Parasympathetic Nervous System, PNS, begins to take over to bring back a state of calm to the whole system. If the perceived danger continues, then the fight/flight response may develop.

There are even studies linked to the startle response that show that conservatives are more easily startled:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/09/18/AR2008091802265.html

People who startle easily in response to threatening images or loud sounds seem to have a biological predisposition to adopt conservative political positions on many hot-button issues, according to unusual new research published yesterday.

The finding suggests that people who are particularly sensitive to signals of visual or auditory threats also tend to adopt a more defensive stance on political issues, such as immigration, gun control, defense spending and patriotism. People who are less sensitive to potential threats, by contrast, seem predisposed to hold more liberal positions on those issues.

 

[Shipwreck]

Yes, but I do remember reading something recently that stated that 20% of people have been shown to have their finger on the trigger no matter how much training they have. And when shown video of themselves doing it, they have no memory of it (this is occurring in high stress situations). So, apparently, there is a % of the population that training will never solve this issue.

The story was something about how transitioning to these Glock like triggers for law enforcement might not be a good idea - especially with all the AD's that are occurring.

I am in the criminal justice system. Over the years I have been told by many cops that their departments had like zero AD's, or 1 every few years. And now (since switching to Glocks or Glock like weapons), they have 1-2 a week in some larger depts. And, the general public has no idea about many of them. Not all occur out on the street. Hell, some occur in the police station.

Carry what you want. When I shoot USPSA, I will admit that I use a Glock 17. But, that's all I ever use the gun for. And in fact, I just sold it to buy another DA/SA gun. I don't go often enough due to my schedule, and I'd rather have another gun I like more.

Carry what you want - just be aware that things in real life don't always go according to plan in actual events

 

[Pilot]

I won't carry a Glock, M&P, or other striker fired pistol (except for the HK P7) because of the short pull first shot. I don't like the risk of pulling the pistol under stress, and accidentally having my finger on the trigger. Yes, I practice drawing the pistol with my finger off the trigger, not even in the trigger guard, however stress has a way of altering your performance.

 

[Corpral_Agarn]

Advantage?
I think that would be hard to prove over any other popular design.

Preference?
Yeah I have one.

I don't like safeties on defensive pistols and I came from revolver shooting. DA/SA makes me feel warm and fuzzy (safety reasons) and I have put the time into making it work for me.

I will take a smooth 8-10lb trigger over any gritty/squishy 6lb trigger.

I haven't been practicing much, but I can draw (no concealment) and fire a shot on a 8.5x11 sheet of paper at 10 yards in 1.09 seconds.

for me DA/SA is safer and I like the SA part of the DA/SA.

/$.02

 

[Quincy12]

Thank you again... very thought provoking and insightful.

 

[Shipwreck]

I don't like safeties on defensive pistols and I came from revolver shooting. DA/SA makes me feel warm and fuzzy (safety reasons) and I have put the time into making it work for me.

I agree. Years ago I was huge into carrying a 1911 - now I have owned so many guns over the years that SAO and turning off the thumb safety is no longer second nature. So yea, I don't wanna have to remember to deactivate something.

I am actually surprised at how this thread has gone so far - usually, I stay out of the topic because the Glock-o-Philes jump in and accept no other viewpoint. The threads usually degrade into insults towards people who can't use those types of guns, or don't want to.

I only jumped into this thread because no one else had answered yet. So far, this thread has gone over quite well. And, I'm not saying that because most people seem agree so far. Feel free to have your own opinion. But, the issue isn't simply ONLY a matter of "training" - as that is the viewpoint that gets tossed around a lot.And there is no reason to degrade people who prefer DA/SA and treat them as if they are dummies who can't use a gun responsibly

 

[Zaydok Allen]

These issues are why I do like the backstrap safety on the XD and XDm lines. Obviously keeping your finger off the trigger is still key, but pushing on the rear of the slide to holster the gun, without touching the backstrap safety is a bit safer IMO, over my VP9, that only has the trigger safety.

 

[Old Dog]

What many people do not acknowledge is that most of the time (I'm sure it's well over 90 percent, maybe up to 99% of the time) law enforcement officers draw their handguns, the handgun is used for "threat management" (i.e., during felony stops, concluding vehicle or foot pursuits, clearing buildings in response to alarms or reports, etc.) .

Most of us have held suspects at gunpoint on many occasions, and most of us have never had to actually fire a shot. This is when the DA first-pull is useful, in my opinion. If you've got a suspect proned out, and you're not indexed, you see a twitch, and ...

I personally prefer the long DA first trigger pull, and given the caliber of officers with whom I'm forced to work sometimes, I wish they all were issued DA/SA pistols.

Seems to me that some police shootings involving two or more officers are the result of "sympathetic fire" -- one officer fires a shot (purposely or inadvertently) and then all the others on scene start shooting as well.

Our NDs did go up, not drastically, but significantly, when we transitioned from a traditional double-action (DA/SA) that had a safety/de-cocker lever, to a polymer striker-fired pistol.

Just my thoughts.

 

[Shipwreck]

Until that situation I mentioned above happened - I NEVER practiced the DA shot on my DA/SA guns (this was several years ago). I always cocked the gun. After that - I started practicing. I always shoot 1-2 mags where EVERY shot is DA - I do this on every range trip. I also practice 1 handed shooting now - both in DA on every shot and in SA.

With some practice - it's not hard to shoot that first DA shot well.

Now, I have no doubts about my aim in DA.

 

[Sam1911]

It is my personal feeling that DA is a very good thing and probably do have measurable benefits in safety. Along with that is my belief that a consistent trigger pull is a valuable quality and that a truly DA autoloader should be a very reasonable choice for almost all issuing agencies and a very great many carriers.

But we've got this belief that SA is mo'better and changing to SA mid-stream somehow improves things. I question that. If I can shoot a revolver well, why can I not shoot a DA auto just as well? Why do I have to switch over to SA after the fight is engaged? If I can't shoot a DA revolver well, how in the world will I land that most critical first shot accurately and fast? And why is it good that I've then got a lot of SA shots to follow up with?

I personally feel the "-SA" part of the DA/SA system is the real answer to the question no one (should have) asked.

 

[ny32182]

Until that situation I mentioned above happened - I NEVER practiced the DA shot on my DA/SA guns (this was several years ago). I always cocked the gun. After that - I started practicing. I always shoot 1-2 mags where EVERY shot is DA - I do this on every range trip. I also practice 1 handed shooting now - both in DA on every shot and in SA.

Personally, I'm not a fan of this either.

My opinion, you want the transition subconsciously ingrained, and to do that, you actually need to do the transition.

A guy I used to shoot with a lot would do ALL his dryfire by letting the trigger all the way out and pulling DA for every pull. His trigger control was always what was holding him back from performing at a higher level (in competition in this case). After trying it both ways, I always thought his dryfire practice of doing every shot DA was a contributing factor. I found out later I wasn't the only one to hold that opinion.

By now, I believe I can say that all the best shooters I know that shoot DA/SA guns practice how they play in both live and dry fire. Dryfire: Draw, DA pull, and then "simulate" a SA pull for the rest of the shots in the string by not letting the trigger out far enough to reset to the DA pull. In live fire: Draw, DA pull, finish the string in SA as you have to anyway.

The DA pull is the easiest thing in the world to dryfire. Just draw, click, "simulate" a few single action pulls, holster. Don't need to rack the gun or anything. 80% of your DA competence can be easily developed like this in dryfire.