Striker fired versus DA/SA, advantage?

[jimbo555]

Not all striker fired triggers are the same. The Kahrs have a smooth but long d/a style trigger.

 

[pblanc]

I poled members of two different forums as to what manual of arms they felt was safest for a carry weapon for a person who could only get out to practice shoot 8-12 times a year or so. The answers were different on the two forums, but the traditional double action (DA/SA) pistol, and double action only (DAO) pistols and double action revolvers or DAO revolvers did well in both polls. I was a bit surprised given the wave in popularity of striker-fired action (SFA) pistols in recent decades.

I have seldom had occasion to carry a pistol but when I have it has always been either a DAO pistol or a TDA pistol with a safety/decocker. I have carried both with a round chambered. In the case of the TDA pistol I have left the safety on till holstered, then carried it off safety.

I also have and shoot a traditional double action revolver, a single action pistol, and a striker-fired action pistol so I have reasonable familiarity with all these manuals of arms.

I am looking to buy a mid-sized polymer-framed 9mm pistol later this year that can serve as a carry piece and I am still undecided as to what to get. I do feel that either a DA/SA pistol or DAO pistol reduce the chances of a premature or accidental discharge compared to a SFA pistol. I do not consider my level of training adequate to safely carry a SA hammer-fired pistol.

The disadvantage of the TDA (DA/SA) pistol is mastery of the double action to single action transition. This is something I have practiced with my TDA pistols shooting DA/SA pairs and then decocking. I have improved but I am not sure that I can say I have mastered this.

The DAO pistol or my double action revolver fired DA do offer a consistent trigger action with no transition, but follow up shots are definitely slowly due to the longer trigger pull and trigger reset.

SFA definitely allows the fastest strings to be shot quickly but I remain very concerned about the possibility of an accidental discharge in a stressful situation or while reholstering. Many say these things should never happen with proper training but then "there is how things should be and how things are."

My feeling is that a TDA or DAO pistol or a double action revolver would make it a bit less likely for me to accidentally shoot myself or someone else at the cost of possibly reduced first shot accuracy and slower follow-up shots.

 

[Teachu2]

Separate and apart from the safety/ND-avoidance issue, some people find that having the "better" trigger pull on all but the first shot is an advantage.

And then they figure out that they can fix that first shot as well, with a 1911.

I own a variety of handguns, shoot them all, and the format I prefer LEAST is DA/SA. I shoot them well enough, but not as well as either a SA or striker-fired model. My CZ75B became a safe queen the first time I shot my 75B SA, but most of my carry guns are strikers. JMHO.

 

[ATLDave]

And then they figure out that they can fix that first shot as well, with a 1911.

LOL! Yeah, SAO is where I have mostly come out. But I'm not scared of external safeties. Some people are.

 

[Quincy12]

Not to get too far into the weeds, but then what is the advantage of DA/SA over DAO?

 

[JTQ]

what is the advantage of DA/SA over DAO?

from my post at #3

The subsequent lighter SA trigger pull, once you've started shooting, is usually a better trigger pull than your typical striker fired gun.

The DAO has a "people management" advantage, but from shoot-ability the DA/SA usually is at an advantage.

On another forum, some of the smart LE guys have argued for the advantages of the HK LEM trigger for "people management" purposes. They make a good point of that. It also gives you the advantage (as does DAO) that you don't have to remember to decock the pistol. However, they typically admit from a pure shooting perspective the DA/SA is a better tool.

 

[Sam1911]

Your split times between shots 2-1? may be faster by a fraction of a second. You may enjoy the feeling of the trigger break more on those subsequent shots.

You can fire all your shots in SA when you're at the range and get smaller groups.

 

[Chuck R.]

Here's one study I've found that deals with unintentionally or unknowingly putting your finger on your trigger while under stress that leads me to believe that either a DA/SA or HK LEM or DAO “might” be the way to go:

https://www.policeone.com/police-pr...-you-really-prevent-unintentional-discharges/

In his first study, 33 male and 13 female officers of different ranks and years of service, were sent into a room to arrest a "suspect" and to "act in a way they thought appropriate" while doing so. The officers were armed with a SIG-Sauer P226 that was rigged with force sensors on the trigger and grip. All the officers were instructed that if they drew the gun during the exercise, they were to keep their finger off the trigger unless they had made the decision to shoot, per their training and department regs.

As the role-play evolved, 34 of the 46 officers drew the gun and one officer actually fired, intentionally. Of the 33 others who drew, all insisted that they had followed instructions to keep their finger outside the trigger guard, because they'd not made a decision to shoot.

The sensors told a different tale.

Seven of the 33--more than 20 per cent--had in fact touched the trigger hard enough to activate the sensor. Even the officer who eventually fired his weapon "not only touched the trigger twice before actually firing and once again afterwards, but also had his finger on it long before actually firing," Heim notes. Yet he too maintained he'd kept his finger well clear of the trigger until the very split-second before he fired.

I'm a died in the wool striker fired guy, was a big 1911 guy (cocked & locked) before moving to polymer due to weight/capacity. I like a striker trigger that has some pre-travel for this reason. I’ve also been working with the HK LEM, which just might be “THE” option for someone concerned with this because the trigger does have some take-up before the break that’s hard to ignore, but also provides for a good trigger accuracy wise. I do prefer the LEM to a straight DA/SA or normal DAO trigger. Also being a hammer fired gun, you can ride your thumb on the “bobbed” hammer while holstering, which for some is another concern for striker fired pistols.

Although most SA pistols; 1911s for example have a safety, since I was taught to swipe it off as part of my draw stroke (2nd Step of 4 count) I can see how someone would be concerned with a SA pistol also.

Chuck

 

[Deanimator]

The HUGE advantage of a Glock type striker fired gun is the consistent trigger pull. The trigger pulls on my Glocks are the same from first through last shots.

I really dislike DA/SA trigger as well as conventional DAO triggers.

I've never seen a DA auto of ANY kind that had a DA trigger pull that could hold a candle to that of a Glock with a reasonable trigger set up, nevermind an S&W revolver.

One of the worst DA trigger pulls I've ever seen was on the Beretta 96D. It was simply AWFUL: long, creepy, crunchy and grinding.

I'd own a CZ-75, but only because it can be carried cocked and locked. I'd be more inclined to carry the single action version. A Beretta 92/96, SIG or S&W 5906? Not a chance.

For me, it's M1911s, BHPs and Glocks (with 3.5lb. connectors).

 

[AZAndy]

Indeed! And a good example. None of us would be willing to suffer the anguish of trying to learn to type on an alphabetical (or other more logical) format keyboard, though. How many years would that take to relearn? And would it really help anyone do anything truly better?

I'm a Dvorak guy-- less tiring and a touch faster. It took a few months to get up to speed, but it was worth it.

 

[9mmepiphany]

I've never seen a DA auto of ANY kind that had a DA trigger pull that could hold a candle to that of a Glock with a reasonable trigger set up, nevermind an S&W revolver.

Any Kahr, SIG DAK, H&K LEM...

 

[FireInCairo]

One advantage to the striker fired action is that it is a simple point and click response. While the triggers may not be as light as a DA/SA in single action mode, most decent designs can be fine tuned to the point that their triggers are very smooth, relatively light, and with a short enough of a reset to make them an excellent personal protection tool.

Being that I've never owned a 1911, or any DA/SA pistol before, I would have to become accustomed to their style. I don't even want a striker fired pistol with a external safety, nevermind a decocker.

 

[tuj]

This is not necessarily true of all, but generally striker-fired have no 2nd-strike capability, whereas most hammer-fired DA/SA do.

I have 1911's, have shot plenty of Glocks and am comfortable with them, but ultimately use a CZ-75 P-07 with decocker and a S&W 5906 as HD guns.

 

[guyfromohio]

I'm a fan of DA/SA, but also carry a PPS and 1911 at times. I always wondered about the striker-fired gun having the same pull from first to last. Do they not have a reset that is shorter than first pull? Unless you are shooting a revolver or a DA set up like a revolver, a Glock has a different second pull than first pull, right? I find a DA to SA transition to be no different. Just my opinion. Carry what you shoot best and take care with any system not to shoot before you want to. Personally, I take more comfort in the DA first shot and find it really not that hard to get used to.

 

[roscoe]

This disagreement has always made me wonder why there is no slim single-stack DA/SA. Enough folks like them (including me) that it seems like a natural, but all the newer CCW pieces are striker-fired.

 

[MAKster]

I think a real world example of the safety benefit of the heavy first DA/SA trigger pull vs. a lighter striker pistol is the LA County Sheriffs Dept. They recently switched from the Beretta 92FS to the Smith & Wesson M&P and there has been a dramatic increase in negligent discharges. Clearly the heavy first trigger pull was covering up bad habits like putting your finger on the trigger.
http://www.cnn.com/2015/12/16/us/los-angeles-sheriffs-department-guns-report/

 

[45_auto]

From the article quoted above:

--And a light mounted to the gun and activated by deputies squeezing a pressure switch on the handle has led to confusion in some incidents, with "a significant number of deputies reporting that they unintentionally pulled the trigger of their weapon when they intended only to turn on the light."

Interesting what happens when you throw a little stress into the situation ....

 

[tipoc]

One advantage to the striker fired action is that it is a simple point and click response.

Sometimes we see that fellas can assume that all striker fired guns have the same mode of operation, they don't. That a gun has a striker says nothing automatically about it's mode of operation. It only means they have a striker. They can and do have external safeties (M&P and others), they can have long heavier trigger pulls (Kahr and others), the "saf-action" type triggers of the Glock, the H&K P7, etc.

It's usually been seen that the mode of operation was more important than the mechanism of getting the pin to strike the primer. When Glocks first appeared it was the trigger that was unique and worth attention and less so that it had a striker mechanism which was not unique. Over the last 5 years or so the term "striker fired" has come to be a stand in term for a gun similar to the Glock. This is unfortunate because it's inaccurate.

What striker fired guns have in common, aside from the obvious, and what many people seem to mean when they use the term is that the trigger pulls are the same from shot to shot and that the triggers can be light.

Da/sa pistols (or TDA, Traditional Double Action as S&W called them for years) did not begin with a committee thinking up something odd for marketing purposes. They arose as a way to solve a few problems. They did that pretty well and still do. Practice makes the transition issue less important than many individuals suggest. It becomes a matter of personal preference.

tipoc

 

[tarosean]

This disagreement has always made me wonder why there is no slim single-stack DA/SA. Enough folks like them (including me) that it seems like a natural, but all the newer CCW pieces are striker-fired.

PPK and a host of others.... same size as that new fangled Glock 43. Small striker guns have existed for over a 100yrs so thats not really new.

When Glocks first appeared it was the trigger that was unique

Not exactly, since Iver Johnson came out with the Safety Automatic Hammerless 2nd model, with a similar trigger bar safety. some 90yrs before glock hit the scene.

 

[tipoc]

Not exactly, since Iver Johnson came out with the Safety Automatic Hammerless 2nd model, with a similar trigger bar safety. some 90yrs before glock hit the scene.

That was a top break internal hammer revolver as I recall. So not a forerunner so much. The trigger bar-drop/trigger safety on the Glock as well as the partially cocked condition of the striker in combination were unique at the time.

No gun that is made does not borrow elements and working ideas from the ones that came before. It's how they are combined that makes the difference.

tipoc

 

[tarosean]

No gun that is made does not borrow elements and working ideas from the ones that came before.

pretty much, nothing new under the sun. till we move away from cartridges...

 

[kozak6]

DA/SA triggers are traditional and well established. They can offer more flexibility since many of them can be carried in Condition 1 or Condition 2 depending on your viewpoint on safety. Also, the single action pull can be much better than on most striker fired pistols.

Also, please note that not all striker fired pistols are not the same. There are DA/SA, SAO, and DAO striker fired pistols, as well as pretensioned hammer fired pistols. And, even pretensioned striker fired pistols can vary quite a bit in their implementation. For example, even though they have pretensioned strikers, Kahrs are described as double action since that is what their long smooth pull more closely resembles.

 

[HGM22]

DA/SA makes sense for me since I'm not very likely to need a gun. I'd rather err on the side of caution.

 

[Shootshellz]

Hate to burst your bubble, but safety with ANY firearm resides between the ears; it has nothing to do with the trigger mechanism. 'Off target, off trigger'. If you can't/won't follow that rule please do us all a favor and leave handgun ownership to others.

 

[JohnhenrySTL]

I don't think any bodies bubbles have been burst. This is an actual conversation acknowledging the realities of what happens when firearms are deployed.

Ever noticed how many "shooters" will explain how they would shoot better than they ever had if somebody was shooting back? It was explained to me today.

Up until I bought my first Glock, I would have thought a striker fire was the easiest to carry and handle. The consistant trigger pull, and the lack of a manual safety seemed like the obvious choice.

However, owning and trying to shoot my Glock as tight as I shoot my DASA guns has frustrated me almost to the point of no return. I can even shoot double action only guns in tighter groups with way less frustration than I can the only striker fired gun I own. Modern and theoreticaly convienant or not, if I don't feel prepared then I'm likely not.

As a golden rule for me, I don't carry or reach for guns I don't thoroughly enjoy everything about. There are way too many choices for that. I also want to do whatever it is I need to do with my Glock. Because there are so many of striker fired guns I feel along the lines of disabled not shooting them to my ability.