Stupid wording of gun laws.

[camp_gunner]

In reading through the NY gun laws, I ran accross this gem:

On and after March 1, 2001, any manufacturer that ships, transports or delivers a handgun to a person or licensed handgun dealer in New York shall include in the container with such handgun a separate sealed container that encloses: (a) a shell casing of a bullet or projectile discharged from such handgun; and (b) any additional information that identifies such handgun and shell casing as required by New York state police rules and regulations.

So the question is, do you fire a cartridge, recover the bullet or projectile, melt the lead out of it, and send that in?

The great leaders in N.Y. just know how to write clear and concise laws, don't they.

This is just one of many laws that would be amusing if they did not impact people's lives.

 

[loki.fish]

I don't get what's so hard to understand about it? Seems pretty obvious to me. The gun has to be shot once and the brass casing must be enclosed.

 

[Macpherson]

As loki.fish said, either a bullet or empty brass fired from that gun must be included when the gun is shipped, presumably for ballistic identification purposes.

It is somewhat puzzling because it doesn't say that the casing/bullet must be provided to police, so what is the point of requiring that if the gun recipient can just throw it away on receipt? Is there another regulation somewhere that says that the brass has to be supplied to the police?

 

[DRMMR02]

I got an empty brass with both my P22 and P99.

 

[Josh Aston]

Yes, we all know it means a fired shell, but the way it's worded does make it sound like they mean the jacket from a bullet.

 

[loki.fish]

a shell casing of a bullet or projectile discharged from such handgun

Sounds just like it's written. A shell casing from whatever was fired through such handgun. Whether it be a bullet or other projectile.

Yes, I know I'm not a nice person. I'd use something other than "not a nice person", but it's not The High Road.

 

[Dr. Dickie]

Sorry, but the way that is written, it looks like they want the metal jacket of the bullet, not the casing of the "cartrige" fired from the gun.
Though of course we know what they mean...I think?

 

[camp_gunner]

Remember, in the world of the law, wording is king. The law does not ask for the shell casing of the cartridge, only for one from a bullet or projectile, and one that has been discharged at that. If I were going to have to go into court in a case relating to this law, it would quickly be overturned by putting the state's experts on the stand, giving them a dictionary, and asking them to clarify the law.

 

[TX1911fan]

camp gunner, I think you would lose. First of all, courts will not allow a hyper-specific reading of the law to allow someone off on a technicality, despite what you read in novels or see in movies. This langauge may be a little ambiguous, but not enough to prevent anyone from knowing what was intended.

Second, what was the bullet or projectile seated in prior to being discharged from the gun? It was seated in the shell casing. If I recover the discharged bullet and say "camp gunner, where is the shell casing that this bullet was in prior to being discharged?" what are you going to hand me? The jacket, or the ejected casing?

Yes this could have been worded a little more specifically, but its intent is clear.

 

[Bobo]

It can be the just the casing of a bullet (don't need the inside lead), or the whole projectile (casing with lead inside or just a lead bullet).

Bottom line - they want something with rifling and pit/land marks on it for forensic comparison.

Maybe that's what they should have said!

 

[Aguila Blanca]

Sounds just like it's written. A shell casing from whatever was fired through such handgun. Whether it be a bullet or other projectile.

It does not say "from" it says "of."

The original poster is correct. Despite the fact that we all know what the law intends, what it actually says is something else. The shell or casing "of" a bullet is the metal jacket thereof, not the cartridge casing from which the bullet was fired.

Yours truly,
Pedants-R-Us

 

[Jorg Nysgerrig]

If I were going to have to go into court in a case relating to this law, it would quickly be overturned by putting the state's experts on the stand, giving them a dictionary, and asking them to clarify the law.

Of course, the prosecution would then have you read subsection above it where it states:

§ 396-ff. Pistol and revolver ballistic identification databank.
(1) For the purposes of this section, the following terms shall have the
following meanings:
(a) "Manufacturer" means any person, firm or corporation possessing a
valid federal license that permits such person, firm or corporation to
engage in the business of manufacturing pistols or revolvers or
ammunition therefor for the purpose of sale or distribution.
(b) "Shell casing" means that part of ammunition capable of being used
in a pistol or revolver that contains the primer and propellant powder
to discharge the bullet or projectile.


Those legal types are pretty good about including definations in the laws for just this reason.

 

[RustyFN]

My handguns came with a case fired in each specific gun. I don't see the problem.
Rusty

 

[TX1911fan]

Aguila Blanca, since a bullet doesn't have a "shell casing", your reading doesn't work. A bullet has a jacket, but not a shell casing. It does not say shell "or" casing, but rather, shell casing. The only reading of the law that works is to realize it is talking about the shell casing from which the bullet comes, as further supported by the definitions contained in the law.

 

[Baecht]

Of course the first time you fire it you are going to get a pile of shell casings. Do you have to keep the original seperate. I have a grocery bag full of shell casings if the police want them. This law is inane.

 

[Jorg Nysgerrig]

Baecht, notice it says that "any manufacturer that ships, transports or delivers a handgun to a person or licensed handgun dealer in New York shall include".

They don't care what you do with your bag of casings. They just want the manufacturer to include a fired casing with the handgun which is then sent to the State Police after the gun is sold. The owner does not need to keep the original seperate, as he will no longer be in possession of it.

Now, if one want to argue that sending the casing in is inane, well, that's a whole new topic.

 

[1911Tuner]

Nomenclature

Many lawmakers, like journalists and movie directors, don't understand the difference between a bullet and a cartridge...Automatic and Semi-Automatic...
Pistol and Revolver...Sub machinegun and machinegun...or Automatic rifle and machinegun. To them, a cartridge is a bullet. An M-16 is a machinegun, and
a magazine is a clip...and please don't confuse'em with facts. They don't like that.

 

[WiLLtallica]

So anyway I'm just interested to know how do you even retrieve the projectile in the first place?

 

[carpettbaggerr]

Fire it into a bullet trap. Either a water trap, or one of the newer types, such as : http://www.ballisticsresearch.com/dprs2.php

http://www.snailtraps.com/forensic_fbd.htm