sub moa rifles....riiiiight

[kir_kenix]

it just seems that everybody i meet at the shooting range has a rifle (or most of the time RIFLES) that are 1" sureshot super rifles. the same can be said about gun writers. seriously, everything that every gun writer reviews seems to group .00005" at 650 yards.
i think that anybody could shoot a 1" or less group, if they shot enough groups. i mean, i have a few rifles that if i do my part can group at, around, or slightly below one inch, but not every time. not nearly every time. and most of the time it is around...as in above.
what got me thinking about this subject is that i went to my local gun range today with some of my buddies (buddies w/ super rifles that shoot .01" groups every day but saturday when I am around). each one of them bragged about what sort of groups they could produce, and none of them (myself included) performed to that pinnacle. sure it was windy, but most groups, even off rests, were at or around the 2" or above mark.
anyway, i was just wondering what everybody else's opinion was on this subject. i think that we seem to only remember the really good groups and not the AVERAGE or TYPICAL group. 2-4" groups should be plenty for most hunting, but we seem obsessed w/ moa.
i would never call anbody at my range a liar, but i think that most of us are frequently guilty of rather selective memory. does everyone else seem to fall into this line of thinking with me, or have i just been up WAY too long?

 

[Avenger29]

Most of the modern production rifles today are limited by the shooter.

Of course, most people bragging on their rifles in the "Hey, hey, look at me! I've got a sniper rifle and that means I am a sniper!" manner couldn't hit the broadside of a barn from the inside.

P.S. These people are usually packing a Glock 7

 

[kir_kenix]

oh, im not inferring that the rifle isnt CAPABLE of moa groups, just that they are not the norm. for instance i have a stevens .223 that i shot a 1/2 group w/ today. i dont think that makes it a 1/2 rifle, just because i shot that group once today (w/ s&b 55gr fmj from a bi-pod in 10-12 mph wind). i USUALLY shoot just under 2" with the same ammo. thats what i am getting at i guess (or at least i hope that i am getting at something...lol)

 

[270Win]

If the rifle is capable of doing it, then it's fair to judge it by that, even if infrequent. I agree with you, though, that people SHOULD say "It has achieved half-minute-of-angle groups on occasion" to be entirely accurate; but that doesn't sound as impressive as "it's a half minute of angle rifle", not nearly so

I also agree with Avenger29 that most contemporary production rifles ARE capable of MOA or better these days, given a good shooter and good conditions. Thus the high number of shooters who have, at one time or another, achieved such lofty results...

 

[Freelance Tax Collector]

I think most of the accuracy standards are made from rests, so it is easy to see how such accuracy is attained from control situations like these. My best group that I've ever fired was a 3 shot .65 MOA fired from my PSS .300 win mag with TTI armory 190 grain AMAXs bipodded in the prone. Again, this was in a zero wind, zero stress, control situation. I'd post pics, but my other computer with all my pictures was stolen, so you can go ahead and call me a liar and a commie and a pig and get it over with.

 

[Waywatcher]

I can honestly say I can shoot my hunting rifle into MOA. Sitting on a bench. With a rest. With little to no wind. I've done it, so I know I can. Take away some of the controls and my groups widen up, and I'm the first to admit it.

I think some people just have a bragging problem, be it about their car, their boat, their house, their rifle, etc.

 

[Beetle Bailey]

Well, I have seen some silly antics at the range.

One guy I know brings out several rifles to each range trip. He takes one out and shoots it until he gets a good group. Let's say he gets 3 or 4 groups that are about 2". Then he gets one group that measures 1". He stops, cuts out and saves the 1" group to attach to the rifle, and moves on to the next rifle.

Another time, this guy was shooting his 6mm PPC and doing fantastic. He already had a couple of 0.5 MOA groups but he was on a roll. He put the first four shots of the group into a hole just ever so slightly larger than the bullet diameter. He was really sweating it because he was afraid to take the last shot and ruin a very nice group. He spent almost ten minutes debating whether or not to even shoot the last shot. I suggested he go ahead and take the shot, but in the end he passed and kept it as a great four-shot group.

Me? My Savage does shoot sub-MOA. I shot six groups and they were all under 1 inch, so I'm gonna go ahead and call it a sub-MOA rifle. I just don't tell you about the ten other rifles I have that I haven't shot even one sub-MOA group with.

 

[SunRunner]

I’ve found that many factors can affect ones ability to achieve consistent tight groups at a given distance. I have a old Model 70 Winchester 22-250 with a standard barrel and a 3x9 Leupold VX scope that in the past was capable of putting 10 rounds into a ¾” group at 100 yards. Obviously this was bench resting on sand bags.

Now, what it took for me to be able to do this on any specific day was another thing. I found that first and foremost that shooting early in the morning, 7:30am ish on a nice crisp and clear 50 degree day was optimal. I would have required a good nights sleep and a light breakfast. No pancakes, eggs and sausage. Caffeine from any source seemed to impact my ability so coffee was out until I was done shooting.

I also reloaded my own ammo. I would use only Winchester brass that had been fire-formed to this specific rifles chamber and then trimmed and neck sized only. Every case was prepped methodically, cleaned and measured with a dial caliper. Always used the exact same lot CCI primer, new powder and Hornady bullets. Every powder charge and bullet was weighed on my un-dampened Redding scale. I found that using my magnetically dampened RCBS scale would affect the consistency. Every finished cartridge was then measured for overall length and possible damage such a nicks on the copper jacket.

The first round out of a cold clean barrel was always high to the right but then all subsequent rounds typically would stabilize into the above mentioned ¾” group.

On the other side of this on any given day with about any ammo, a hearty breakfast w/coffee and a light wind a 1 ½” – 2” group was very achievable. However, for me to get the nice sub-M.O.A. groups the moon and stars pretty much had to be aligned as stated above but it was worth it.

On a side note – after storing this rifle and without it being fired for the last 25 years I cleaned it up and took it out last Thursday. I used Remington Express 55 grain JSP. Suffice to say I could have shot better groups with 00 buck in my shotgun. I really don’t now what happened to it while stored but it should be fun to get it back into shape. Shortly I maybe looking for a little advise on this one.

 

[gdvan01]

it just seems that everybody i meet at the shooting range has a rifle (or most of the time RIFLES) that are 1" sureshot super rifles. the same can be said about gun writers. seriously, everything that every gun writer reviews seems to group .00005" at 650 yards.
i think that anybody could shoot a 1" or less group, if they shot enough groups. i mean, i have a few rifles that if i do my part can group at, around, or slightly below one inch, but not every time. not nearly every time. and most of the time it is around...as in above.
what got me thinking about this subject is that i went to my local gun range today with some of my buddies (buddies w/ super rifles that shoot .01" groups every day but saturday when I am around). each one of them bragged about what sort of groups they could produce, and none of them (myself included) performed to that pinnacle. sure it was windy, but most groups, even off rests, were at or around the 2" or above mark.
anyway, i was just wondering what everybody else's opinion was on this subject. i think that we seem to only remember the really good groups and not the AVERAGE or TYPICAL group. 2-4" groups should be plenty for most hunting, but we seem obsessed w/ moa.
i would never call anbody at my range a liar, but i think that most of us are frequently guilty of rather selective memory. does everyone else seem to fall into this line of thinking with me, or have i just been up WAY too long?

That made my head hurt...

 

[redneck2]

I guess there are two parts to accuracy, the shooter and the rifle (or pistol)

There are some members here that ridicule shooting off a sandbagged bench. "Only way to tell what you're capable of is real shooting", or "you don't carry a bench in the woods when you hunt"

Well, IMO, the bench gives you a guideline. If you can't shoot better than 3 MOA off a bench, it's only gonna get worse in the field. Use a bench to take out some variables.

As for "super groups", I guess there are just some days when everything is working right. Remember, a .300 hitter will make 10 million a year and still miss the ball 7 out of 10.

 

[adobewalls]

I agree most of the 1/2 MOA shooting is done by cherry picking targets, when one would be more "honest" by aggregating the group from all bullets fired that day. But it is an accomplishment, and the pursuit of accuracy and precision is a noble goal.

It is still very enlightening to run a string of 30 to 50 consecutive shots just to see what that group looks like. If still shooting 1/2 MOA, then something has been accomplished.

 

[CDignition]

Here is a target I did last week. I am testing loads for my CAP Crusader. I shot 2 5 round groups at each target... ALL are 5/8" or under in group size...the smallest is .3 or so and I decided to use that load.. very pleased. a few of the groups were real good, but I pulled a few shots..

 

[qajaq59]

I often enjoy shooting 30-30 levers at 50 or 100 yards while standing. Would you like to guess how many MOA targets I get doing that? Yup, you got that right. Zilch, zero, nada, whatever. But I sure hit hogs pretty well in the woods.

But if it's perfect targets that you like, then go for it. We're all different.

 

[Kalashnikov]

My guns shoot good enough for me. Thats all that matters to me.

 

[fineredmist]

The correct explanation is something like this, when conditions are perfect, Murphy ( of Murphy' Law) is on vacation and I ( the shooter ) do everthing right, then the rifle will do this.
Murphy spends a lot of time at the range.

 

[darkwing]

My first rifle was a Savage 99 308 with a 4x Busnhell. That gun never had a bad day. 10 shots in a inch. Like a dumb A-- I traded it for a mini 14 which was a neat rifle but a little disapointing in accuracy to say the least. So traded it in on a Model 70 243 bull barrel which would do 5 shots in a half inch. 7400 in 30/06 out of a cold barrel would shoot 1 moa but let her warm up and she string shots off the paper. I've had several guns that walk the bullets as they warm up and a some that shot better once hot . Now days I'm happy if I shoot a 2" group.
On my first hog hunt I had practiced with several guns. The 94 30-30 with iron sights was allways dead on for the first shot. Anyway thats what I used for a 75yrd neck shot. 200 lb hog just rolled over and didn't even oink. I knew then gun writers might be full of it. Who would of believed after 30 years of reading about guns I didn't need a 338 mag shooting a half MOA group to kill a wild boar.

 

[possum]

my old 1sg used to be a sniper instructer at Benning and on the aims commity and i was asking him similar questions. he was a rellay good shot, and said that he got some really amazing groups at extended ranges, one in particualr i can't remember but he told me the group size and my miuth hit the floor it was very impressive, but he said the following groups were no where near that the had shot before. there are ok shooters that get lucky every once in a while and great shooters that lucky sometimes and do extrodinary things but on the whole it is very rare to pull off some of the feats that he described, i have no reason to think that he didn't by no means. he is a great solider and a great shot. i guess the planets get in alignment sometimes, and sometimes they don't.

of course they are gonna remember the good groups and i am sure that they let the bad groups fall by the way side.

then i had another guy in my company that said he went out with another nco in the company and they shot a dime size group at 1000yds. i knew he was full of it because he streche the truth and was a liar, but i asked the owner of the gun and he sid they were shooting at about 250 meters, not to mention the act that there was no where around the area that had the space to shoot out that far, and they were using a dpms lr .308 they are accurate guns but i know they are not capable of that and especially him he dosen't have that amount of skill even if the rifle could.

there are some stories that are believable and some that are out of this world. you have to take into consideration the sourse and the deed that is being cliamed.

 

[_N4Z_]

I liken alot of these stories to "the one that got away" kind of tales. Fish stories.

Not all of them, but alot of them.

For me I've never shot an under 1" group, with a pre-determined amount of rounds, at 100 yards. Between 1 and 1-1/2 inches, yes it has happened for me, but not as often as I would like.

Just this past Friday I put 3 out of 5 rounds into 1/2 an inch at 100 yards, but the other 2 shots bloomed it out to 2 7/8". ....My newest Finn M39 with surplus ammo. I was still pretty friggin jazzed about that. BUT... all the other groups from that rifle that day were anywhere from 3 to 5 inches.


I really think it's usually just the competitive bravado most of the time. The great fish story to elevate ones self to a position of esteem among his or her peers.

 

[R.W.Dale]

I have a couple rifles that will do it on an average basis, it's not really magic. When I was a new shooter I thought it was, But if you're willing to put the effort into precision shooting after awhile you'll find that sub MOA isn't all that hard to achieve

 

[sansone]

I agree with the original post. I consider myself a good shooter and especially like accurate rifles, single shot, boltie, etc.. I don't EVER recall getting sub MOA myself, or been present at a range to witness anybody doing it. now maybe myself and others around me just plain suck.

 

[YodaVader]

i think that anybody could shoot a 1" or less group, if they shot enough groups. i mean, i have a few rifles that if i do my part can group at, around, or slightly below one inch, but not every time. not nearly every time. and most of the time it is around...as in above.

With the right rifle , loads and equipment combined with some degree of shooting skill MOA or 1" @ 100 yards is not such a big deal? Look at the targets by CDignition , all are well under the MOA.

I see some of the group firing methods used by some of the shooters at my range , rolled up jacket on a box of ammo with the forend resting on it and the shooter's balled up fist under the stock , hard to shoot MOA that way. No taking their time , a five shot group does not have to fired in less than 45 seconds when testing accuracy.

Rifles with out of the box 6 - 7 lb triggers make it difficult along with a $39 non- PA scope with thick crosshairs that do not allow precise aiming. And using the cheapest available factory ammo or the bulk mail order stuff. And some shooters have barrels so fouled they will never shoot MOA regardless of who is behind the trigger. Think a fouled barrel won't hurt groups? I find it amazing how my groups tighten up after a good barrel cleaning.

And the type of rifle , will be harder to accomplish MOA with Marlin lever action , a Remington semi-auto or WWII surplus bolt action from Lower Mongolia. Not saying it can't be done , just less likely to occur.

The shooters I see shooting MOA/sub MOA with regularity , are usually shooting varmint/tactical style rifles with heavy free floated barrels , load their own ammo with match bullets/primers , most prep their brass. They use a front rest and rear sand bag , almost always a trigger that is tuned or aftermarket. They clean often enough not to allow their barrels to become fouled to the point where accuracy deteriorates.

They all have quality optics often with target dot reticle and always parallax adjustable , with parallax present sub MOA is difficult to achieve. And don't trust the markings on the scope , adjust to the point where there is no parallax present.

They are patient enough not to rush the shots and simply have a lot of shooting EXPERIENCE.

 

[MachIVshooter]

Consistent sub-MOA groups from a benchrest using a modern bolt rifle, good optics and handloads is really no big deal. I have 6 rifles that I know will shoot 1" or better @ 100 from the bench using the right loads with little to no wind. I usually do 5-shot groups, allowing for 1 flyer.

That said, shooting from a bench with sandbags virtually eliminates the human component. I cannot reliably produce MOA from feild positions, even using a bipod and laying prone.

Half MOA is quite another story. While I have on occasion produced such tiny groups, it is not the norm. The smallest group I've ever fired was 3 shots measuring .403" CTC, but that rifle averages ~.8". IT is a remington 700 LVSF .17 rem topped with a WEaver V-16 4-16x42mm ultra fine reticle and using 20 grain V-max's loaded to 4270 FPS. The trigger is set at 17.5 ounces with 0.040" pull (FYI, this much trimming renders the safety inop).

 

[plexreticle]

I feel most of these gun writers are cherry picking their groups.

Most of the rifles I own seem to be more ammo sensitive than most the ones I read about.

Just my observation.

 

[bhk]

Same shooter (me), lots of rifles over the years, and LOTS of years tell me some factory hunting rifles will AVERAGE sub moa (in decent conditions) but most won't. I think the shooter is the limiting factor up to a point, but most rifles themselves won't AVERAGE under 1" and 100 yards regardless of who is shooting them and what type of rests/bags they use (even using mechancial machine rests). I shoot for groups when conditions are right and use good rests (Hart) and good bags. I have only one centerfire factory rifle right now that will AVERAGE under moa and it is a SAKO .223. All my others will AVERAGE between 1 and 2 inches. I don't think an occassional good group out of a rifle means anything, it is the aggregate of lots of groups that count.

Now, benchresters and others carefully selecting custom barrels, using Jewel triggers, and carefully handloading can consistantly shoot TINY groups. Some other folks repeatedly buy and sell hunting/varmint rifles until they get a collection of sub moa rifles - fine. Others carefully select rifles and spend scores of hours working up handloads for each one, also increasing average accuracy. These guys are the exception and in no way reflect the overwheling majority of shooters using factory rifles and using factory loads (or doing minor handloading). My passion is .22 rifles, with my current favorite being built on a Sako Finnfire action, with a Lilja barrel and a Jewel trigger. Yes, it averages well under moa with the right ammo (Lapua or Ely) but in no way reflects on the average across-the-counter rimfire.

Another point to consider: I'll bet many shooter claiming moa groups don't truely understand what moa means, how to properly measure groups, and shoot enough shots to truely constitute a 'group.' I don't think groups under 5 shots each should count for measuring groups, although they may give a rough assessment of 'hunting' usability.

 

[Buzztail]

Most rifles out there will, from time to time post a sub MOA five round group.


Few will agg anywhere near it