The internets take on Sub MOA vs what it actually is?

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SavageShooter2k

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So I would like to apologize in advance for making my first post a fairly lengthy one but I have been lurking around these boards for a while gathering info and learning as much as I can and I am finally to the point where I just need to ask this question specifically and hear your answers.

A little background to start. I have always been a gun guy, I started out a 1911 freak, then I got into ARs, then I got into precision rifles. Over the last year I have been trying to learn as much as I can about long range shooting and practice shooting my rifle as much as possible. I have a savage 11 in a B&C medalist stock, with a SWFA SS scope on it. After shooting about 600 rounds through it at this point and developing some nice hand loads I now think i know what this rfile is really capable of and I am wondering if I should stick with this rifle or go a step up to a Savage rifle designed to be more accurate out of the box like one of the model 10's in HS precision stock or a 10BA just for grins.
Now that I can shoot very consistently with my rifle I know when a miss is my fault and when it is not. So on a great day when all is right with the world I can consistently put up 1/2-3/4MOA 5 shot groups at 100 yards. Lets say I shoot 5 groups. 1. is .700 2. is .599 3. is.510 4. 1.25 5. is .800. And occasionally even I will get a 1.25MOA group even when I do my part. I used to think for sure it was my fault when I had that .800 group and that surely the rifle will do 1/2 minute every time if I am perfect. But the more I shoot the more I can feel that I am doing everything right and some times its just the other variables that open up the group.

The question is how accurate is my rifle? And how accurate are those rifles out there claiming sub MOA accuracy? The internet would have me believe that since I once shot a .300" 3 shot group that my rifle is a 1/4 MOA gun or maybe I did that once on a 5 shot group, but what if every other group is .900, 1.00, or in that range. There is also always the infamous "flyer" that no one counts towards their group.

The reason I ask this is that I really do my research before purchasing a weapon and I see these claims. I am wondering are there really any true 1/2 MOA guns out there that when your ammo is right and you do your part will put up that .500" or so group. My rifle has proven to me that if I have that perfect sight picture, perfect trigger pull and follow through that I can expect anything from .400-1.25MOA even with my hand loads. So in my mind my gun is really just barely a Sub MOA gun.

Do you think I am delusional and I really am botching the shots or this what these "Sub MOA" rifles really shoot like and no one is talking about it? They are only advertising the best groups?

Sorry again for the long post but I really want your feedback, I have gained a ton of knowledge already from this board and I look forward to learning more and contributing where I can.
 
Well, how accurate or precise do you really need the rifle to be? Is it just for self satisfaction or is there an actual need? For me, a really precise rifle is very cool and satisfying when I shoot well. But I don't need that level of precision at all, and I'm not very concerned with what others are doing.

And also, the Savage 12 FTR really is that accurate. But you're not likely to want to carry it around much.
 
IMO, only showing best groups. Some people shoot 30 groups and only post a picture of the best two and say look how accurate my gun is. If you enjoy shooting the groups, that is all that matters.
 
To me a MOA gun is one that shoots it every time, not a random group once in the lifetime of the gun. Of course you can make allowances for conditions and differences in ammo. I don't believe in cherry picking groups to represent how a particular gun shoots.
 
When most people post groups they say stuff like "my best group was .5 inch" or "my gun will shoot shoot one ragged hole on occasion". It's just a way of acknowledging that there are other groups that aren't as good, but here's what happened on this day.

Most of us don't go around saying I have a 1/4 MOA gun.
 
Thanks for the replys guys. As far as why I want a new gun its really just for fun. I am wondering if I have maxed out the capabilities of this gun and if I really can shoot better groups with another.I really enjoy learning about the gun as I shoot it more,but I also like to prove to myself that I can be really good at something. I feel like I have a really nice, accurate, budget friendly gun on my hands and I dont want to discard it if that 1/2 MOA gun that I am buying is just going to shoot the same groups as what I have now and the reason its advertised that way is once in a while it shoots that well.
 
HJ857 said:
And also, the Savage 12 FTR really is that accurate. But you're not likely to want to carry it around much.
Click to expand...

Yeah, HJ857 I am learning that accuracy and weight are a trade of. I have looked at the 12 FTR and the 12 LRP but weight has been why I have stayed away. My rifle was 13 lbs fully loaded and those bare rifles weight about that before optics,etc.
 
Sounds like a good shooting model 11. I would be happy with it. You can always rebarrel with a heavier match grade barrel or buy a more accurized model of the same action you have there. Point is that to get consistent 5 shot groups below 1/2 moa, your going to have to spend dollars. You can take a factory rifle so far. Kind of like building a hot rod. You add parts to your V8 to increase horsepower, but you get a point where the horsepower gains are minimal but the dollars spent are maximum. It's how far do you want to take and much do you want to spend.
 
SKYSHOT- That analogy hits home well for me as a car/bike guy. Your answer is basically what I determined based on the information I have seen so far, but having shot some rifles that will now and then put up that ridiculous group I was really wondering if the difference is consistency in the higher dollar rifles which makes sense.

Thanks again for the input guys, the more opinions I get the better.
 
Most of us don't go around saying I have a 1/4 MOA gun.
Click to expand...

I once shot a 1/4 inch 5 shot group with my M70 .30/06.

Once.

Odds are, the barrel will be worn out before I do it again.

I can consistently - meaning 4 out of 5 times - put five rounds of the best loads into about 0.75" with that rifle; seldom will it shoot over an inch with my "accuracy" loads, and usually I can call the flyer.

As far as I'm concerned, that makes it an honest MOA rifle.
 
Welcome to the wonderful world of shooting. I learned that you can spend all the money you want and it will not make YOU a better shooter. The only thing that will make you a better shooter is practice, practice, practice. We all have off days when we shoot bug holes today and tomorrow they will be .75 to 1.00. Most guys you are watching on YouTube are cherry picking their groups to show them off, and I can guarantee they don't shoot those cherry picked groups every time they pull the trigger. I have been around several bench rest shooters and they have high dollar rifles and optics and they have the same problem, although a .50 group is terrible in their eyes where we see them as a great group. Good luck and happy shooting.
 
Sometimes it can be difficult to determine if it is the rifle, you, or your ammo that is inconsistent. One thing that can help to assess the consistency of your reloads is to use a chronograph to check your velocities. Inconsistent ammo will certainly cause inconsistent groups. Also, looking at how the groups open up might give you some insight. For instance, do your bigger groups have a large vertical spread or horizontal spread?
 
You might want to consider a better rifle. The gun you mentioned may or may not be a great improvement. Some identical rifles shoot differently. Maybe a dealer can hand pick a tested gun for you. If you go with a Remington 700 you will have a gun that can be Blueprinted if it doesn't shoot OOB or a custom gun. Savages are usually excellent OOB though. I don't know about upgrades for them. It depends on how far you plan to go. ForOOB accuracy I sure like my Tikka. 1/2 inch groups OOB with factory ammo.
 
Also keep in mind that the Savage can be easily rebarreled at home, whereas a Remington 700 needs to be rebarreled by a gunsmith. I'd sooner rebarrel a Savage I already had than spend even more on a new Savage.
 
Many rifles will shoot under moa but far less shooters can accomplish same with any rifle. Welcome to the forum, lots of wisdom found here.
 
I think everyone should shoot a running group, over time, different conditions, etc. As many rounds as possible to get the REAL idea of both the rifle and shooter.

I shot this this afternoon while doing barrel break in at 160 yds. From cold bore to last shot, it is a 34 round group. I seated and checked the first round with my case gage, and loaded all the rest without checking. The powder charge was measured on my cheaper electronic scale, +- .2 grains. The cases were new and not trimmed, though I did resize after pulling bullets to de prime some weak primers. The bullets were Hornady cheap and old and had tarnish on them. I shot with the sun in my eyes, and had mirage until the 25th round or so. I didn't heat the barrel up, and the load is mild. I actually have no idea if I'm close to a node or not. But, I wouldn't hesitate to use this load out to 300ish on coyotes....

However, for a re barreled M70 varmint rifle, that's had 3 barrels on it now, I think it should shoot a bit better when I find a load for it.

Most of the time, rifles shoot better than the shooter. I say get what you want, enjoy what you shoot, and get better over time. Nothing wrong with a new rifle or a new barrel.

i-kt5LRwT-L.jpg
 
I should have included a smiley face. Some people would call them flyers so they could claim to shoot a smaller group.

Seriously, looks like great shooting with break in ammo.
 
Yeah, I knew I pulled a couple when the trigger broke. I actually shot a 24 round group with different bullets the other day that was tighter. I was also cleaning between short strings.

Kind of goes to what the OP was stating. That days group was smaller, today's was larger. Both groups were acceptable, for what they were.

When I load develop, I usually shoot 3 or 4 rounds per charge weight, when I hit one that "may" be the one, I'll shoot 5 or 6 to verify it If I pull one out of that, and know I did it, I'll still use the load and call it good. My best 3 shot groups are almost always when I find the node. When I get to 5 or 6 I tend to wiggle one off to the side, as I just shoot off of bags.
 
I think when you see these rifles that are claimed to be sub-MOA, they are with the qualifiers that are included with the claim by the manufacturer; i.e. capable of a three shot group of less than 1" at 100 yards. That does not mean they claim it will turn in a sub-5" group at five hundred yards after having been shot twenty times successively.
 
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