sub moa rifles....riiiiight

[Charles S]

kir_kenix,

You have posted on a topic that always interest me. It seems everyone I hung with and everyone I talk to at the gun store owns a slew a rifles that can shoot less than MOA. That is until I see then at at the range and they are having a bad day or just changed ammo. I do know a few (three) shooters who consistently shoot less than MOA, but they are the exception not the rule.

One thing you must do is define MOA, to a great deal of people a rifle is a MOA rifle if it once shot a group or two or maybe three that happened to measure, or just look like it was less than an inch, at what might or might not be 100 yards. For me a MOA rifle is one that will consistently shoot less than MOA with three five shot groups or five three shot groups.

I can shoot MOA with three of my rifles, but I am using a good steady bench (an unsteady bench can really degrade your capabilities), a benchrest quality rest, anemometer with flags at 50 and 100 yards, good optics, and quality targets on a stable target holder. Two of these rifles are custom, one is a Tikka, and I am using handloaded or premium ammo to achieve these results.

As to consistently less than half MOA, I just don't shoot enough nor have good enough equipment to shoot those kind of groups consistently, some do just not me.

I really think it is all in the definition, if one cosiders MOA a rifle that once shot a group that happened to look like it was less than an inch then sure they have a MOA rifle; if on the other hand your definition is like mine, I think you will find there are few MOA rifles or shooters out there.

 

[C-grunt]

My Savage 10FP will average about .8 inch groups if I do my part. This is 3 shots off a bench, using bipods, bag under the butt, its favorite ammo (Winchester Ballistic Silvertip 168 grn), using a leupold Mk4 3-9, little or no wind and waiting a good minute inbetween shots. The best group I have shot was just under .5 inch. I did that once. On a good day I will pull a .6-.7 inch group. On a bad day its more like 1.25-1.5 inch groups. My best handloads so far produce 1 inch groups.

My Mosin m38 is a completely different story.

 

[YodaVader]

Consistent sub-MOA groups from a benchrest using a modern bolt rifle, good optics and handloads is really no big deal.

Pretty much has been my experience with the varmint/tactical rifles
I have owned - 4 Remingtons , 700VS , 700VLS , 700P and 700LTR and my Savage 12BVSS , just shot a few through it last evening , easily averaging under the "magical" MOA mark for the four 5 shot groups @ 100 yards.

Anyone who is ever in the central IN area is more than welcome to be my guest at the range and I'll be glad to let them shoot my rifles.

 

[MechAg94]

I know a guy whose goal is to hit the same hole at 200 yards with his 22-250. He has done it, but not always. In order to do it, he has a custom rifle and shoots very carefully prepared hand loads off a bench. He puts a lot of effort into just a few shots.

For me, I am just glad to consistently shoot less then 3 or 4 inches. Most of my rifles are semi-auto so I am not trying to win any accuracy contests. I do need more practice standing and kneeling though.

 

[Geronimo45]

You guys are pathetic. I routinely shoot sub-MOA groups at 300 yards, with a full belt from my MG-42. The secret is in not shooting in bursts - that makes you less accurate. The reciprocation allows your body to compensate for recoil. Nothing is as accurate as a fully automatic weapon.

I once tried point shooting at a thousand yards with a Barrett 82.. 2" group for ten shots. Too much caffeine that day, I guess.

Gecko45, signing out.

 

[Picknlittle]

I had a fella tell me how his 30-06 shot the same 1 inch group at 100, 200, and 300 yds a couple days ago. He didn't have his gun with him at the time.

In about a month to six weeks, we'll have our 400 yd range open here in Montgomery Co. TN. I'll put him to the test then.

Personally, I can shoot one shot one, hole groups all day long,

 

[koja48]

All of my varmint rifles are so capable, but this after many years of tweaking & culling as well as working-up loads. On some days, off a rest I am even capable. I've always been careful to describe those occasions when the stars aligned using the following statement: "The smallest group I shot today was . . . " Even though I shoot A LOT, a group, even on a good day without a "flyer" is much more the exception rather than the rule.

 

[Afy]

I know that all the rifles I do own are MOA or better. However me as shooter isnt...

 

[Peter M. Eick]

These are not MOA rifles, but they are better then that. They are consistent.

To me the measure of a rifle or a handgun is how it does over a 50 shot group. 50 shots is a lot of time for the shooter to screw up, the gun to warm up , mag changes etc, and basically it takes a lot of the guess work out of the process. It would be hard to "luck" into a 50 shot good group at 100 yards.

Supermatch, 100 yards, 50 shots off the bench.

NationalMatch, 100 yards, 50 shots off the bench.

Winchester 94, 100 yards, 50 shots off the bench. Note that most of the flyers on this one was the first shot out of the cooled barrel prior to reloading.

 

[Farnham]

Hey, I did it once! Took me a lot of reloading, a new stock, and a bipod, but my Savage 10FP .308 turned in this group one day. More often, it's an inch and a half or better off the bipod. But knowing it IS possible encourages me to try harder every trip.

S/F

Farnham

 

[atblis]

MOA

Hmmm. My Tikka is an easy sub MOA rifle. Everything else...not so much.

 

[itgoesboom]

I can honestly claim to have a rifle that can and does shoot well below 1MOA, for 3-shots, center to center. In fact, if I get a group over 1" with that rifle, with the handloads I have done for it, I am sorely disapointed. Five shot groups are another matter, I can never seem to hold 5 tighter than an inch, but I suspect that is me rather than the rifle. I get three really tight, get excited, 4th is just a little farther, and then I yank #5.

During my load development, I shot about 10-15 groups, and averaged the size. The average was roughly .5". Largest was right at an inch, the smallest was in between .3-.4".

Since then, I have shot groups over an inch, including one that went about 2". But they aren't the norm.

Everytime I have had a group go over 1", there has been a major error on my part.

Here are some examples.

-Didn't clean the rifle for a few range trips. 2 range trips resulted in <1" groups, third resulted in groups over an inch. Cleaned the rifle, and the groups went back under 1".

-Didn't clean the cases well enough of the RCBS case lube in the necks, and the bullets were sticking. I pushed them back .001-.002" to unlock them, then shot them. Groups opened up a bit.

-Flinching. Didn't take this particular rifle to the range for a bit, instead focused on my AR. Significant change in recoil between the two, and the first few targets weren't up to par.

I actuallly have 3 recipes for handloads for this rifle. One is extremely accurate at it's best, but inconsistant. .4" of inch one group, 1.4" next, so I don't shoot it anymore. Next is very accurate, and consistant day to day. With that load, I know that my POI is exactly 1" high @ 100yards with new brass when compared fired brass. Next is a hunting load, accuracy isn't quite as good, but still much better than average.

Reality is that most rifles are capable of really good accuracy, and most factory loads are capable of really good accuracy. It's the shooter that limits the potential.

 

[trueblue1776]

I'll put the first one on the paper and the next four in the trees off to the left. Thats a "one hole group" right?

 

[Mesa]

Excepting the cold bore shot (always high and to the left) my 10FP will consistantly shoot under 1" 5-round groups at 100 yards. But .5 or less groups are VERY few and far between. In fact, they go on the wall on the rare occassion that I actually shoot one. That being said, as I go out to 200, 300 and beyond to 650 yards the sub-moa groups dwindle. Some days I can just stack them in there and others I'll have a group that looks more like a buckshot pattern than rifle shots. I also shoot 3-round groups past 100 just because of ammo price. 3-round sub moa and 5-round sub moa groups as different as night and day.

I do know that I can very consistantly shoot sub moa 3-round groups to 300 yards though, (3" or less). Past that distance I'm consistantly inconsistant.

I would LOVE to get one of those rigs that eliminate the shooter to see just how accurately (consistantly) the 10fp will shoot. Then again, maybe I don't want to know.

For the record, I shoot prone, with a bi-pod, and a rear bag.
-Mesa

 

[atblis]

Yeah

There are most definitely lots and lots of liars at shooting ranges. Usually they claim something much less than 1 moa though. 1 MOA is believable, 1/2 MOA is getting into wader territory (with hunting rifles).

I think what most people do is shoot one group of a particular size, and then that gun becomes a whatever inch gun based on a single group.

We all know this though.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

There are probably a lot more rifles out there that are sub-MOA capable then there are shooters. However, anybody talking about group size and accuracy needs to understand the factors outlined in this post:

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=279218

I shot two 5-shot sub-MOA groups today (back to back even), so I feel pretty confident the rifle can do it consistently. The shooter needs a bit more work though.

Here is an example of an earlier MOA 5-shot group, along with more typical groups (grid squares are one inch, rifle was a 16" midlength AR15 with Lilja barrel, stock trigger, TA11 ACOG, shot at 100yds from the bench using Grippod and rifle case for support).

 

[itgoesboom]

There are most definitely lots and lots of liars at shooting ranges. Usually they claim something much less than 1 moa though. 1 MOA is believable, 1/2 MOA is getting into wader territory (with hunting rifles).

I think what most people do is shoot one group of a particular size, and then that gun becomes a whatever inch gun based on a single group.

We all know this though.

Just cuz you might not be able to do it, doesn't mean that it isn't possible.

These are all pretty much shot on different days, different temps (by as much as 45 degrees), different lighting conditions, etc.

These are just a few targets that I have scanned, I have a stack more. All of these are well under 1", and many are under .5" center to center.

ETA, these are all through my Weatherby Vanguard sporter. To be fair, I have restocked it and bedded the action, and the trigger is pretty decent.

 

[fatelk]

I used to work for a gunsmith who built high-dollar benchrest and hunting rifles. He would guarantee that under ideal conditions his rifles would shoot "in the twos or threes" (.2 or .3 MOA). Now of course that's a $2500 plus rifle with a $1000 plus scope with meticulously loaded ammo, from sandbags, no wind, expert marksman at the trigger.

I have a rifle he put together for me on the cheap from spare parts, under $1000 scope and all. I can shoot very consistently under 1moa with it, often 3/4moa, but sometimes I will have a bad day and shoot one and a quarter but that's me and not the rifle. The best group I've shot lately was 1.04" 5 shots at 200 yards (center to center).

To me I would not call a rifle "minute of angle capable" unless it would do it consistantly, not just a lucky group. Lucky groups happen and they are just that- luck.

Peter M. Eick- that's some impressive shooting with those M1A's.

 

[taliv]

i mostly agree with peter.

i don't even consider "3-shot groups" to be groups. posting pictures of them and talking about them is just wasting my time.

if you can't shoot 5 shots with no "fliers" in any wind conditions, then talk less, practice more.

if you want people to respect your skills, make it a 10 shot group.
if you want people to respect your rifle, show me a 50 shot group.

 

[R.W.Dale]

In my book hunting weight rifles get 3 shot groups and bench/varmint weight rifles get 5 shot groups. You can't expect a featherweight rifle to be able to be held to the same measure of repeatability you would a target gun. 3 shots are a more than adequate representation of what a hunting rifle can do in the field.

Saying 3 shot groups don't matter is silly anyhow, A 3 shot group can mean just as much as a 5 shot group, it just takes more of them. Which means more two .50 three shot groups or one .50 five shot group.

 

[taliv]

it's not silly, because anybody can luck into an "impressive" 3-shot group. an "impressive" 5-shot group is significantly more difficult because the "fliers" are usually the 4th or 5th shot.

i don't expect a featherweight rifle to be held to the same standard as a target gun, because i know they're not the same. but 1MOA is 1MOA and .5MOA is .5MOA.

but internet braggarts don't qualify their claims by saying "my tikka shoots .5 hunting MOA"; they just claim it's .5 MOA.

if you want to claim your featherweight rifle can shoot like a target rifle, then shoot a competition sized string.

 

[R.W.Dale]

because anybody can luck into an "impressive" 3-shot group.

So it's always luck when a person shoots four or five outstanding 3 shot groups in a row

In my opinion a SINGLE five shot group is as meaningless as a SINGLE three shot group. It's the average that counts

 

[_N4Z_]

don't even consider "3-shot groups" to be groups. posting pictures of them and talking about them is just wasting my time.

Finland circa WW2 time period. Army tested rifles must produce three shot group of 1.5" or less @ 100 (or was it 150?) meters, before being allowed into service.

Those Finns kicked the snot out of the Soviets during the Winter and Continuation wars while vastly outnumbered.

Guess those 3 shot groups weren't a waste of time for those infantry guys on skies.

 

[taliv]

no, it's not always luck. but it's usually luck.

a single 5 shot group is obviously more meaningful than a single 3 shot group.

i agree, the average is more important. but nobody posts all 100 shots they made for the day, they just post the best 3-shot group, and out of 33 tries, everybody is going to luck into at least one 1-moa group. that's unlikely to happen with 5 shot groups, and it's not going to happen with 10 shot groups.

edit: that's fine, n4z and not a waste of money. it's perfectly ok for a battle rifle.

 

[351 WINCHESTER]

I knew I shouldn't have had that 7th cup of coffee. I have rifles, that will shoot sub moa, but only with perfect conditions and not every day. The human factor is usually the cause. If you have a hunting rifle that shoots 2 or 3 inch groups at 100 yds. and you deer hunt - go hunting with confidence.