sub moa rifles....riiiiight

[YodaVader]

I guess I'm one of those guys who figures benchrest shooting is cheating a bit. Okay for statistics, but not necessarily a highly skilled exercise, compared to offhand, prone and sitting.

I can agree as well , but after reading the posts here the ability for most to shoot less than an inch at 100 yards (even bench rested) is an extreme rarity.

Seems like most are also talking sporter type hunting rifles , with stock triggers , and using non-match factory ammo. Which I can also agree with - that would not be the type of rifle I would used to try to shoot less than 1" at 100yds.

Now using a heavy varmint or tactical rifle with a decent stock , with a good trigger , securely mounted quality optics , a proper rest , a solid bench and match bullet reloads I don't find it to be such a great feat , under most range condtions. My most accurate rifle is a Rem 700LTR with a Jewell trigger , Leupold Vari-XIII 6.5X-20X target dot , and I use Sierra and Berger match bullets.

To me shooting in the 90s in 50 yard slowfire bullseye (pistol) is far more difficult than shooting less than a one inch group with a bench rested varmint rifle with match ammo reloads. But with enough practice and using the right equipment some do it routinely.

 

[doc2rn]

+1 fineredmist: Murphy was a grunt

 

[jpwilly]

There are a number of variables involved; the shooter, the weather, the gun, and the ammo. If one of these is out of whack the groups can open up and I think most of us are willing to forget the bad groups and blame one of the above. When things go right - you gotta tell everyone!!

 

[Whitman31]

Good groups are how we judge our guns. There are dozens of factors that can cause groups to grow, even the best guns have bad days.

5 shot group, 100yds, 204 Ruger, Hornady 32Gr V-max...Good enough for the girl I date...

 

[Buckskinner]

good target. That's a heartbeat away from a fly's eyeball...

 

[Whitman31]

Here's another

6 shot group, 100yds, Remington 700 BDL in 22-250 with 1500+ down the barrel, 50gr NBT. This gun always shoots a "flyer" the first round down a clean barrel, after that it tightens up...I adjust by shooting 6 instead of 5.

One more thing, this gun barely shoots 2 MOA with the best factory ammo I can find...

 

[the new guy]

WOW! This has been the best entertainment I've had in a looooooong time! It might even be good for a few more pages... one can only hope!

So here's what I think: Those that "do", rarely "talk". Those that "talk", rarely "do". The world would probably be a better place if the talkers shut up and "did"... or just went away. Of course, it is fun to listen to the I can shoot better than you folks out there sometimes. It's even more fun to, with a few well placed words, smash their oh so fragile self esteem and leave them wallowing in their own self reproach while I rap off a few more rounds. What can I say? Sometimes I'm a sadist.

Yes I have a few sub moa rifles... yes they're consistant... no biggie really. As far as my new rifle goes, every time I set out to find its limits it laughs at me and says: not this time. I'm very happy with it so far, everything else is merely someone else's conjecture.

Hey rangerruck, what in the wide world of shootin' stuff is a pressure pad?
And what ever posessed you to torque action screws? I don't believe I ever wouldv'e come up with that one... whatever works. Also... nice groups.

 

[Mannlicher]

Kir Kenex

i would never call anbody at my range a liar, but i think that most of us are frequently guilty of rather selective memory. does everyone else seem to fall into this line of thinking with me, or have i just been up WAY too long?

well, there are 'internet 3 shot groups', and 'real life 3 shot groups'.

I have some rifles that shoot with a high degree of accuracy. I am sure most here do. HOWEVER, some of the claims posted on the internet, are in the relm of science fiction.

 

[GunTech]

I also measure shot groups by 5 round groups in 5 strings.

I my experience, people who shoot sub MOA groups will usually qualify it with conditions - 'with this particular ammo' for example.

I recenltly had a person tel me his SA SOCOM would shoot sub MOA with Portugese surplus or any other crap he put into it. It will, if you do like he does and shoot 3 round groups, and toss out 'flyers'.

Are modern production rifle capable of sub MOA - which is precision, BTW, not accuracy as some people seem to think. Certainly. But you must pick the right ammo, and in the case of many hunting weight barrels, you must allow the rifle to cool down between strings.

Can most production rifles shoot sub MOA groups of 5 rounds, 5 times in a row? Rarely. Can they do same with factory ammo? Almost never.

I shoot a 40X custome that will reliably do 1/2 MOA, and under the right conditions will do 1/4 MOA. That's after carefull working up a load using weighed bullets and brass, attention to seating depth and carefully measured powder. That's way more effort than most people bother with, but it gets groups like this:

If I use over the counter Federal Gold Medal Match, it shoots about MOA - but consistently.

My M1A match shoots right about 1 MOA with handloads. I'd like to see one that will do the same with milsurp, though I've heard of many.

There may be a lot of sub MOA rifles, but I sure don't see them at the range.

 

[Creature]

I have an old sporterized 1903A3 that is sub-MOA.

 

[sammy]

I have shot a sub MOA group once. I was shooting my Springfield Scout, open sights with SA surplus. I fired a 3 shot group at 100 yards and looked through the scope and did cartwheels!! I am sure it was a total fluke, normally at 100 yards it is more like 4 MOA if I am doing my part.

 

[ojibweindian]

I my experience, people who shoot sub MOA groups will usually qualify it with conditions - 'with this particular ammo' for example.

t

What's wrong with that as a condition? If ammo wasn't a factor in a rifle's ability to shoot sub-MOA, then bench-resters, F-Class shooters, and military snipers wouldn't care if they were using cheap surplus. A rifle, like anything else, can only be as good as the stuff its fed.

Can most production rifles shoot sub MOA groups of 5 rounds, 5 times in a row? Rarely. Can they do same with factory ammo? Almost never.

Mine can, and does. Of course, it's with handloads, and I don't send 25 rounds down range in 3 minutes. I really don't know of anyone that does, either. Most any barrel's gonna get too hot with 5 strings of 5 rounds in under 10 minutes to reliably perform at such levels. But, if i send 25 rounds downrange in 30+ minutes, mine can, and does, shoot sub-MOA.

There may be a lot of sub MOA rifles, but I sure don't see them at the range.

That's probably the fault of the shooter, not the rifle.

My sub-MOA groups are off a bench at 100 yards. To be honest, I've not shot at any more than that (soon to be rectified). I've every reason to believe, though, that with development of the right load, my rifle can do sub-MOA to several hundred yards (if I'm capable).

 

[Whitman31]

I've every reason to believe, though, that with development of the right load, my rifle can do sub-MOA to several hundred yards (if I'm capable).

Good luck with that.

 

[Slamfire]

My M1A match shoots right about 1 MOA with handloads. I'd like to see one that will do the same with milsurp, though I've heard of many.

I use milsurplus to bust rocks. Or get on paper when setting the zero on a new rifle. Then, to get an accurate zero, I use match ammunition in my match Garands and Match M1a's.

Even in the day of "White Box" match ammunition, that 174 FMJBT would not consistantly shoot under a MOA. It took the 168 SMK to get the occasional under one MOA group in a Match M1a. I know the rifle is capable, but iron sights and service stocks limit the shooter. And it kicks.

Milsurplus ammunition is limited by awful bullets. My Austrailian will group around 3 MOA in a match rifle. Funny enough, it will actually shoot closer to 2 MOA in an Argentine barreled FN.

Even in match rifles you have to shoot match bullets in match barrels, with a well bedded action to get close to consistent MOA groups. And then, some loads just shoot better.

 

[aspade]

Milsurp varies greatly. I have gotten consistent MOA performance at 200 yards out of some lots of RG84 and FNM in my 10FP.

 

[cmb3366]

I have to say I disagree with the statement that most rifles are more capable than their operators, and easily capable of sub MOA accuracy. I've owned and shot alot of rifles capable of only 1.5-2.5" with the best of scopes and handloads. That said there most certainly are sub MOA factory rifles, they just take some looking, shooting, and selling to get.

3 shots at 100yds with a Remingiton VLS .308, 168grain Matchkings and Varget.









And here's an example of a rifle that was just a POS no matter what it was fed. These groups were shot at 100yds with a new Savage 11-FNS .308win I bought back when the accu-trigger came out.

 

[GunTech]

Milsurp is not just limited to bad bullets. Military contracts accept powders that have much more variation in burn rate that civilian powders. Military contract powders that are converted to civilian used must be blended to make commercial powder specs. WC848 has a much wider allowable burn rate than BL-C(2) and W748, two powders it of frequently compared to.

Miltary primers are about as bad. They are made to be less sensitive and have a big flash for reliable ignition. Anyone who's used CCI #34 can confirm that they suck for accuracy work.

Part of the accuracy problems cited for the M14 was due to ammunition variablility. The same rifles that would fail the 5.5 inch at 100 yard specification would shoot 2-3 MOA wth commercial ammunition. If the ammunition is not capable of MOA (and most military is not anywhere close) it doesn't matter what you fire it from - you won't do MOA - unless the stars just happen to be in the right alignment and you get lucky.

Commercial ammo is only a bit better. Recall that manufacturers are loading millions of rounds, and dies wear out, powder feed, etc. As long as everything is within spec, commercial ammo is pretty good.

Match ammo is a notch up, but it's very hard to compete with precision hand loaded ammunition, where bullets, powder and cases are all weight, seating depth is set for a particular rifle, necks are turned, etc.
So when someone say he can shoot sub MOA with his deer rifle and ammo from Wal-Mart, I say 'show me'. I find it particularly galling when gunwriters (many of who are basically marketing for gun companies) talk about factory sub MOA deer rifles - usually counting a single 3 shot group, and often discounting 'flyers' or 'called shots'.

 

[Jerry Morris]

Some of you guys need to find a more impressive rifle range.

Let's get me out of the way. On a "hot day", I can do sub-MOA, most of the day. Every day? No! My rifles, a model 94 in 30-30 is good for about 3 MOA, it's my meat gun. My AR is a decent MOA rifle. My formerly 700 PSS is sub MOA, when I am. It still looks like a PSS, but it has a Shilen stainless hand lapped match barrel and has been blue printed. I have had my days and am satisfied with them. Say what you will.

Now, to the meat. I shoot at George Kelbly's Range. There are a lot of fine marksmen there. Numerous times I have started out on what I thought was a quick trip to the range, only to come home 8 hours later. I was looking though my spotting scope at other peoples targets as they shot.

Three vs. five shot groups? YOU WOULD NOT BE ABLE TO TELL!!!! Ten, or more shots? You would have to watch them be fired from behind the shooter, they are THAT tight.

Never say it ain't gonna be done. And some of those writers ain't lying about their guns, or their skill. If you ever run into one of those hack writers with the name of Roland, hang onto your wallet. He can clean you out in a couple of bets.

Jerry

 

[riddleofsteel]

Remington Sendero 25-06
Leupold 3.5x10 Vari X III

3/8" ten shot group at 100 yards

This was the day I learned to set the torque on my bedding screws with a torque wrench.

Later that day I shot a 5 shot 1.5" group at 395 yards with the same rifle.


I NEVER sell a rifle that shots like this!!

I have sold a bunch that I could not MAKE shoot for love nor money.

Big game hunting rifles have to shoot 1.5 MOA off of sand bags to live at my house.

Varmit rifles have to shoot 1 MOA or less.

Having said that most of my rifles will shoot from .5 MOA to .75 MOA with my hand loads. It has been a 30 year process of elimination and gun smithing to accomplish that goal.

 

[cameron.personal]

I think it is pretty obvious to everyone that you poked those holes with a pencil...

 

[riddleofsteel]

OK............... if that makes you feel better to believe that.

 

[cameron.personal]

I was like this when I was writing that.

Really is great shooting!

Cameron

 

[Slamfire]

Anyone who's used CCI #34 can confirm that they suck for accuracy work.

I would disagree with that. I have been using them in my M1a, Garand, since they came out. And they provide excellent accuracy.

Attached is a 200 Yard Sitting Rapid fire group I shot with my M1a, 168 grain bullets, Surplus 4895, and CCI#34 primers. It was scored as a 100-8X. I do not often shoot 8X cleans with a M1a, and I seldom ever get the target as it is usually pasted over when I get to the pits. But I was able to get a photograph this time. These primers shoot just fine all the way across the course.

And so do the CCI#41 primers. I just came back from Perry where on two out of the three long range legs I shot 197's with a Space Gun. One was an 197-8X. The wind had a larger negative influence on my groups than anything else.

 

[ojibweindian]

Whitman31
Good luck with that.

Thanks!

 

[Balddragn]

I guess I can throw in my two cents.

I have a Rem. 700vsf in 308 that I've been putting together and tuning up for benchrest. I'd like to be able to compete with some of the long range shooters, 600 to 1000 yards. Part of the process will be doing my own hand load but I have just finished my first batch yesterday and haven't had time to test them out yet. If I can get the pictures to load I have three examples of (barely) sub MOA 5 shot groups (I don't throw out fliers) if measured center to center. This session was the sight in for the Horus scope I had just mounted, I was shooting Federal match gold 168gr. hpbt.

I shot 40 rounds that day, the first two groups to get sighted in, the other three groups were about 1.25 inches and these three just under, so the average was just over MOA.

I'm looking forward to what I can do with my own handloads.