Submitting gun designs to firearm manufacturers

[LJ-MosinFreak-Buck]

How would I go about doing this, does anybody know? I do think getting a copyright for them all before submitting them would do some good just in case you have an incident like in the movie "Big Fat Liar" Where the guy laughs at Frankie Muniz's characters idea of a story, then turns around and calls it his own. This movie comes to mind when I think about this, so I was wondering what I could do to submit a firearm design to a widely known company.

 

[Shadow Man]

I'd say copyright them, take copies of the originals to the company (by hand) and if they refuse your designs, take the copies back with you. Keep trying all the companies, even the small custom shops until you either have a taker or you have found enough parts to build it yourself.

 

[Wise Lite Arms]

Patents are expensive and take time that might be better spent getting your product ready to market.
When we do quotes or contract work for other companies and they supply the design spec's we use a "non-disclosure" agreement. It gets signed before we are "exposed" to the customers data. We also may require one of these documents to be signed prior to a customer entering our "works" if they might be "exposed" to another customer's ongoing project.
In some cases we have taken an idea all the way from concept to functioning prototype, but the details of manufacturing were developed by yet another company (in this case I am referring to the AR57 upper).

Bottom line, what you are asking about is not uncommon in the firearms industry.

Regards,
Richard C. Hamer

 

[Old Fuff]

Actually you don't have to go in person, unless they indicate interest. The alternative is to include a large, self-addresses envelope that's post paid.

A one or two page letter with a general description of what you propose will usually bring a reply indicating what they're interest level is. Then go from there.

 

[Justin]

Designs are a dime a dozen. Build a working prototype and you might get some people's attention.

 

[Gungnir]

I'd recommend not doing this...

Wise Lite an NDA for a sub-contractor is totally different to sending a viable innovative design to a manufacturer with an in company design house. Especially if it's very innovative, the risk of badging it their own and selling it without license to the original "inventor" is worth it. Their legal costs for IP theft will be worked into the pricing and production runs, and they have significantly more resources to fight such a case than a one man band. All a non-disclosure agreement does is prevent the party receiving the information from disclosing that information to anyone else who is not part of the signing company, or the owning company.

For the same reasons of not submitting a manuscript to a publisher without an agent. At best you're likely to get your letter returned unopened. At worst you'll likely get the letter back, and a year or two see your design under a big company logo. You should also read very carefully the company statements and public information submission agreements that you implicitly agree to when you send them anything, you might lose your own IP by submission, if their statement of submitted information includes "Company X retains all rights privileges and ownership of any information submitted to it; including any and all rights to all unsolicited designs, patterns or improvements submitted or suggested by customers." There are a number of people who've lost great IP to software companies with this specific clause and left them without a real legal leg to stand on.

Get two prototypes built up, and test one of them sometimes what works on paper doesn't work in reality, send the other one to your lawyer by registered mail to prove dates. You can then hawk it around to manufacturers, and have a reasonable case should they decide to cut the original designer out of the loop.

 

[Wise Lite Arms]

Wise Lite Arms isn't actually a very large company.
We start with the Non-disclosure and usually define a contract spelling out what the customer expects.
We don't have a real R&D budget. We expect to be paid by the customer for the time/effort expended to develope their idea/design into a marketable product that is safe and BATFE approved.
We have all sorts of intriguing ideas floating around within our shops, our Weapons Tech's are an innovative bunch. However, in this marketplace who has the funds to risk?
If you notice everything we manufacture in quantity is under contract to another company.

I am a bit offended that you imply we would take another person's work.
Talk to our owner, it has happened to WLA more than once!
Tony is more interested in working on guns than talking to lawyers and so we let it pass...

Regards,
Richard C. Hamer

 

[Gungnir]

I am a bit offended that you imply we would take another person's work.
Talk to our owner, it has happened to WLA more than once!
Tony is more interested in working on guns than talking to lawyers and so we let it pass...

I didn't mean to imply that you would. However the OP asked a question and I responded that there was an inherent risk in doing so and advised him to perform certain things to protect himself and design. Not everyone in any industry is scrupulous or has integrity, these are the people I was warning him about.

 

[Wise Lite Arms]

Gungnir,
I appreciate you taking a moment to clarify your guidance to the OP.
I am also a bit overly sensitive due to some unjustifed "beatings" I have weathered on other forums. I will certainly face any criticism we have "earned", but I find it difficult to accept the "well I heard" comments or cheap shots at our Tech's.

The owner at WLA is a real decent guy (as are all our Tech's) and I guess his experience actually reinforces the warning you were passing along to the OP. We have trusted other people/companies and that has on a few occaisions ended badly. We have learned our lessons and manage things differently now. With the current state of the firearms industry you just can't afford costly errors.

I do hope the OP has something that will "light up" the firearms marketplace!
Lately no product has really done that, at least nothing affordable!

Regards,
Richard C. Hamer

 

[ClayInTX]

LJ-MosinFreak,

First my credentials for speaking: I am the owner of a patent (1) and of copyrights (several), and have been involved with helping others get patents and copyrights.

I first intended to list instructions of what to do to protect your idea but realized my last line of advice would be to get a lawyer. Patent law is a field all to itself and patent lawyers are rare but a local lawyer will be a good witness. Getting a witness as soon as you can is paramount. Look up the patent on the laser for a good lesson on this but don’t do it like Gould did, although Gould really had little choice but to do the “candy store patent” thing.

There is one thing I will warn you about; you have only one (1) year to begin application for a patent after you have revealed your idea to anyone else, or you may lose your rights to it. Don’t even reveal that you do have an idea about something until you are ready to begin application within the next year. You have just posted that you have an idea on the internet—what does this tell you?

Be prepared for a long hard task. A colleague of mine got a patent in 2009 which he had been working on since 1999. I served as witness and peer review.

Get a lawyer! Now!

 

[Bubbles]

If you go with Wise Lite's suggestion, pick a company with a reputation for honesty and integrity. We have worked with Wise Lite in the past and I would have no problem entering a business relationship as described, as I am certain they would honor the NDA.

OTOH stay the heck away from Navy Crane. Give them nothing.

Henry Bowman on this site is a patent/IP attorney. He has done work for us in the past and I highly recommend him.

 

[ultradoc]

I have heard something about mailing yourself the drawings and that way you have a sealed envelope and a date [on the envelope] when you designed this.

 

[rmfnla]

I have heard something about mailing yourself the drawings and that way you have a sealed envelope and a date [on the envelope] when you designed this.

That can help; just make sure to send it registered so there is a paper trail as to date it was mailed.

BTW, Product designs are patented, not copyrighted.

 

[Fish Miner]

Where to begin?!?!?!?

I work at a major research University in the Tech Transfer Office. This means I file patents, copyrights and TM's on inventions created by faculty then try to find a company to license said intellectual property.

I am not an attorney, (but have 15 that work for me) and have been doing this for over 10 years...Here are a few points to counter some of the advice above.

1) The mail yourself a letter trick is false- no such thing, a judge or patent attorney would point and laugh at you...HA HA

2)Copyright is about $35 bucks. These are for literary works, like songs and software and art. Patents can be a couple thousand if you do it yourself on www.uspto.gov or north of $20K if you pay a $300-400 an hour Patent Attorney to file for you.

3) Public disclosure- One year rule applies in US- Foreign filing is gone unless you have filed at least a provisional application in the US before the public disclosure. A public disclosure is considered if..."one who is skilled in the art has a reasonable information to recreate or build said device". Meaning in a room full of gun nuts, someone might be able to reproduce your work based on your information as opposed to a room full of school children

4) Always have protection or PAT Pending before talking to any company. CDA is advised but they are only as good as the lawyer who defends it should they breach the contract. A Patent is designed for you to bar others from practicing your intellectual property, nothing more. If you do not or can not defend your patent, it could be considered public domain and others could use it with no $$$$ to you.

5) keep in mind what your after. Just giving a design to Ruger or Colt in exchange for what? Money? Toys? Running royalty on net sales? Are you going to front the money for the patent? Are they? Why would they need you? Research? product tooling?

6) It is a dog eat dog world in the commercial IP world. If you can afford an attorney get one, if not, read the www.USPTO.gov and try yourself. Something like less then 10% of University patents ever make it to market, not much more for the real world I think. Over 7Million patents means not much is new out there. Do the best patent search you can to find out what you think you have and see how it is different from the rest of the patents out there.

The best thing I can suggest is read all the prior art you can. 9 out of 10 times you will find someone has allready patented it.

PS AND NEVER NEVER NEVER - EVER- go to one of those late night invent now websites or call here for $$$ on your invention. They are a scam and are not to be trusted. Really Never ever go there. bad news....


Good luck

 

[Pweller]

I am not in the gun business, but I have had amateurs come to me with similar ideas relating to my own business. As Justin said, designs are a dime a dozen. I've had plenty of people think they have a 'million dollar idea' which was basically nothing, and wasn't well thought out, and wasn't really even feasible. One of these 'ideas' came from two people who were supposedly engineers.

You have to look at your ideas with great scrutiny. Is this a functional improvement that could be patented, or is it just an aesthetic design? Are you able to use CAD software to really work out the details of your designs? If not, probably no one will be interested. If you can get a patent for function, it may be worthwhile. If you don't have professional experience in the business, it probably isn't feasible. Think of all the professionals who design guns all day long, have a solid teamwork of other professionals around them, have degrees, etc. - is it really likely that you have thought of something that they haven't? Possible, sure, but likely, no.

 

[mcdonl]

Is this a functional improvement that could be patented, or is it just an aesthetic design? Are you able to use CAD software to really work out the details of your designs?

Thats what I was thinking. I have had what I considered some great ideas, but did not have the mechanical engineering and CAD background to "prove" the idea. I had nothing other then sketches hanging on my wall.

I will tell you my idea... have tuning pegs on a guitar, each with a built in tuner that listened to their string.... when the string was out of tune it would automatically tune itself... the self tuning guitar.

But, alas... I am still not rich despite that brilliant idea.

 

[Gatorbait]

mcdonl, You rascal! You almost had me there but I checked it out using Google. It really IS spelled "prolly."

 

[mcdonl]

LOL... ok. I am changing that tag line...

 

[LJ-MosinFreak-Buck]

Unfortunately, I don't have the money to do either. And I'm not necessarily looking for money. One of the ideas I have is for an assault rifle that will help our soldiers in combat so much better than what they're used to. That's all I'm going to say about that, taking your advice, lol.

I just want to bring the market something new, something cool, really. And dependable beyond measure.

 

[Fish Miner]

Then you may consider applying for a STTR or SBIR grant. Money from the Gov't in a grant format (no pay back ness.) The DoD funds a ton- I do alot of these grants to assist in small company formation/R&D/commercialization. Check out the websites or google SBIR STTR and you will see millions of dollars of grants for tons of projects. You may want to try that route- the technology gets right to the troops alot faster then a more traditional design, approval, test, contract production route....Good luck

 

[CWL]

Unfortunately, I don't have the money to do either. And I'm not necessarily looking for money. One of the ideas I have is for an assault rifle that will help our soldiers in combat so much better than what they're used to. That's all I'm going to say about that, taking your advice, lol.

I just want to bring the market something new, something cool, really. And dependable beyond measure.

Before you throw any money & efforts in patenting & prototyping your idea, you'll also need to run a patent search to make sure that you haven't come-up with an idea that has already been patented by someone else.

 

[jakemccoy]

I didn't read thread.

If you want a manufacturer to implement your design, then you should get a job there as an engineer/designer. Anything you create there will be the property of the company by way of assignment. Some of the most brilliant engineers in the world work for large companies in this manner.

If you don't want to work for a large company but still want the benefit of the large company taking a chance on your idea, then you need to get the intellectual property (IP) solid beforehand. This IP typically includes patents, copyrights, non-disclosure agreements, etc. It can be a tough road, not for weekend enthusiasts.

Many folks want all the benefits of an investment (taking your design to market) and none of the risk. It doesn't work that way.

 

[4v50 Gary]

Patent office. Not copyrights. You have to get your designed protected under patents. Get a patent attorney.

BTW, it would help to make a working model to show the feasibility of the design.

 

[LJ-MosinFreak-Buck]

Unfortunately I don't have the resources for a working model... how ever, I can explain my ideas fairly well... I don't know, lol.

 

[HGUNHNTR]

How do you know your design is "dependable beyond measure" if you dont' even have a working prototype?


What are your firearms design credentials? (engineer, etc.)

Maybe some of your professional contacts could guide you down a more appropriate path to get your designs reviewed. These contacts may help further your cause, AFTER you get your designs patented.