The Game Design Industry and Firearms

[akodo]

check out this website for fun reading that will maybe give you some ideas

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/theboxotruth.htm

especially this one 'locks of truth'
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot5.htm

 

[Howard Roark]

This game has real feedback and conditions. The sights are realistic and are not still, they move around and the wind blows the bullet around. It isn't a shoot'em up but is realistic in what the guns are capable of.

 

[bogie]

Lord only knows... 44 caliber?

So, what kind of rifles were these? Were these semi-automatic assault rifle machineguns?

 

[Lewis130]

Never ending ammo annoys me. A typical video game pistol will come with about 70 rounds or more, about five to ten mags worth heavy brass and lead to lug around.
If I had to clear five or six people out of a building with a 1911 and only one or two mags, it would be a lot more challanging. And when I run dry, make me use some cheap, half empty snub nose.

 

[Gtone]

Ballistics. COD4 is awesome...but when I have to hit a guy twice with the Barrett...there's a lack of research integrated into the game.

 

[General Geoff]

Problem with accurately depicting muzzle energies and translating them directly to damage stats is that it neglects all the other "real world" problems of huge caliber guns.

In-game, if given a realistic damage conversion chart, everyone would be lugging around a .50BMG rifle all the time. One shot kills nearly all the time, goes through most walls, disables vehicles, etc. etc.

The problem is trying to reflect all the reasons that .50BMG rifles are not standard issue to real military troops, i.e. triple the carry weight of the most tacticool M4, big, heavy ammo, recoil that's impossible to manage when shooting off-hand (and that beats you up after several shots to the point where you really don't want to keep shooting it).

Without the purely human aspects of duty that a soldier experiences such as fatigue, pain, and recoil management, the advantage of huge caliber guns is just too great.

 

[jerkface11]

No look at Halo3 when you rip one of the mounted guns off it's tripod and carry it around it slows you way down. They could also make the super powerful guns useless unless you're prone.

 

[Weezy]

I want to see a game like Swat 4 made with more weapons, and better graphics (less blocky feel).

CoD4 was fun.

 

[Low-Sci]

1) How do you see the game design industry depictions/uses of firearms in games?

- I think they're progressing just fine. I think they should teach gamers the 4 rules though, because A) those rules should be known by everyone everywhere and B) lots of kids are impressionable as hell.

2) How visually accuracy are firearms used in games? (Please do not refer to sci-fi guns as they are doubtfully intended to resemble a realistic firearm.)

- Usually they're very good. The few minor complaints have already been mentioned, and enough shooter games are out that most games have it down well enough.

3) What would you say the most glaring problem in regards to firearms are in games?

-A) Don't ever give me a weapon that can't reliably kill things. Don't send me through the gates of hell to rescue the president's daughter with the same gun that takes three shots to kill a rat or a basic, bottom-of-the-line headcrab. Give me guns that reflect my mission's purpose and importance.
B) Let me put whatever I want on it, but don't just put it all on all at once; let me make it my own. Modular weapons have rails all over them for exactly this reason.
C)Weapons have mass. Don't let me carry the M16, FAL, Rocket Launcher, Micro-Uzis, and quad-barrel shotgun all at once.
D) If I have a gun - almost any gun - I should never be told that a door is "locked". The gun is a master key, let me use it like that if I need to. You know I'm going to shoot the door out of frustration either way.
E)Once I have a gun I like, don't take it away from me "just because". If I just crossed 70 yards of machine-gun-strafed beach to pick up the trench gun, don't replace it with my stock Garand once the next level loads. Let me keep what I earn.
F) If I shoot someone - ANYONE - I get to take their gun if I want it. Unless their weapon is surgically attached to them, I should be able to take it and use it in a pinch, or even just for the hell of it.



4) What would you like to see implemented in the future of games in regards to firearms and the culture surrounding them?

- I think a lot of games today need to move past the "gun porn" phase. They're awesome, don't get me wrong, but I want to play games where I have tons of options as to what I do, even if that makes the game a shade less pretty and the guns less realistic. Call of Duty 4 looks incredible, but all told it's every bit as linear as the older games. Give me options, make the world dynamic and vast, and let me use my wits to get by in it. I really can only handle running laps while shooting bad guys for so long before I get bored.

5) Anything else that comes to mind. I’d love to hear it.

- Make a "Red Dawn" game. I mean a realistic one, not that ridiculous "freedom fighters" game that Eidos made. I shouldn't have to spend 2 mags of ammo to knock down one ruskie just because his fur coat is abnormally thick.

 

[General Geoff]

D) If I have a gun - almost any gun - I should never be told that a door is "locked". The gun is a master key, let me use it like that if I need to. You know I'm going to shoot the door out of frustration either way.

Yeah, unless it's a blast or vault door, I'm thinking a rifle should make short work of any "locked" door.

 

[FieroCDSP]

1) How do you see the game design industry depictions/uses of firearms in games?

2) How visually accuracy are firearms used in games? (Please do not refer to sci-fi guns as they are doubtfully intended to resemble a realistic firearm.)

3) What would you say the most glaring problem in regards to firearms are in games?

4) What would you like to see implemented in the future of games in regards to firearms and the culture surrounding them?

5) Anything else that comes to mind. I’d love to hear it.

1: Arcadish in most cases. Bad guys swarm, player shoots swarm. Even in war games. NPC interaction needs beefed up.
2:Accurate enough. A Mosin looks like a Mosin, etc. Red Orchestra did this very well.
3:Only recently has use of sights been better stressed. Delta Force: Blackhawk Down had okay implementation years ago. Red Orchestra has probably the best currently, as you can shoot without sighting, but it's likely to miss, even at short range. Damage is modeled okay, but not perfect.
4:Accurate damage modeling, including wall/object penetration. Visual cover is not the same as hard cover. HL2 had tritium sights on the pistol, but you never use them!!!

5: An IDPA/USPSA game would be great, especially in a FPS form. Player control of movement, as well as gun would be important, as simply being moved by the comp (a la Gun Club-PS2) sucks.

Shooter games that have stuck out in my mind are as follows:
-Trespasser: You actually had to align the sights on the gun with the mouse and hit a critical part of the dino to stop it. Action was not always fast, so this was possible. Damage modeling of weapons was relative. A rifle killed easier than a pistol. A 44mag killed easier than a 9mm. None would kill easily unless you get a head shot.
-Operation Flashpoint: Cold War Crisis: One hit, you're usually dead. Ammo was stingy. Could hide in tree-line from tanks, but sometimes could be seen and then a platoon would swoop in to find you. Cons- Annoying that you can die so easily and often.
-Red Orchestra: Great implementation of visuals and realism, except barriers. A crate could stop rifle rounds, rather than penetrate through to the BG behind it. Lack of single-player campaign. Not everyone spends their day online.
-Call of Duty: Good campaign work, good visuals, allows use of sights. Damage modelling is arcadish.

The issue with making a game that meets the demands of gunnies is that it likely won't be appreciated by the casual gamers. Can you market such a finely tuned game to just Gunnies? Yes. Will it make ton of money? No.

 

[-v-]

1) How do you see the game design industry depictions/uses of firearms in games?

Fairly descent. Most games are a balance of realism vs fun. While hauling around a small armory of weapons is fun, its not very realistic, and while having to constantly compensate for bullet drop at ranges is realistic, it probably wouldn't be very fun to the majority of your target audience who is used to video-game guns functioning like laser-shotguns.

2) How visually accuracy are firearms used in games? (Please do not refer to sci-fi guns as they are doubtfully intended to resemble a realistic firearm.)
Great!

3) What would you say the most glaring problem in regards to firearms are in games?

I think what others have said regarding shotguns. They should be effective out to 50 yards or more.

The other thing that always has irked me was the depiction of rifles and assault rifles in games. They tended to act more like sub-machine guns with worn out barrels in terms of accuracy. If I have an AR I should be able to hit bad-guys out to 300 meters or so. Which, unfortunately, tends to be beyond sniper-rifle range in most games. Which brings up another issue.

Most of these epic shooter games seem to take place at ranges of 25-50 yards, on average. Even in Mass Effect, with its massive environments, an ultra-long range firefight was maybe 500 meters, with the range-finder on the tank maxing out at 300!! I would dearly like to see games with expansive environments also implement realistic ranges for weapons. My lowly grunt with an AR, AK, etc. should be able to reliably hit bad-guys to 300 yards. My sniper gun should be able to tag a bg at 1km, etc.


4) What would you like to see implemented in the future of games in regards to firearms and the culture surrounding them?
Modularity in firearms, which I think Crysis hit upon. Keep going with that, its a good trend!

Also, I would like to see more impact from carrying and using larger-bore firearms. I think one of the ways that you can get players to more strategically choose their guns is by introducing the mental component of shooting. After all shooting something that has "bone-crushing" recoil is going to sap your desire to move quickly, shoot it, and shoot it accurately, unless you are very used to it. Thus you suddenly have a choice. You can carry that battle-rifle, but its going to wear out your guy quicker, resulting in less accuracy and speed. But you have a lot of 1-shot wallop, or you can choose to grab that dinky MP5 or M4, which will have much less damage, but suddenly you can keep scoring hits out farther much longer.

Equally, weapons that are small are much easier to maneuver then large and heavy weapons. Turning on a dime is quite possible with a handgun, but if you're lugging a .50cal sniper rifle, you're not going to be a nimble ballerina.

 

[akodo]

The issue with making a game that meets the demands of gunnies is that it likely won't be appreciated by the casual gamers. Can you market such a finely tuned game to just Gunnies? Yes. Will it make ton of money? No.

I think just the opposite. "If you make it they will come" I think gamers would be drawn to the more realistic aspect of it. I mean, how often have you heard a gamer complain that the game was 'too realistic!'

no, gamers loved when designers started to institute things like crouching and crawling prone. Gamers loved it when designers started carefully modeling real guns. Gamers lived it when designers started to allow sights to be used, had move/stationary reflect accuracy, etc etc

Heck some go so far as to play with their character's health turned off and the crosshairs turned off.


One thing that was supposed to make it more realistic that in my experience backfired was COD4 or one of the other WW2 games, when the health bar was removed. Sure, you didn't have to always run back to get old first aid kits when you were hurt, you just rested a bit. Bit it got to the point that when I had a good gun, conserving it's ammo was more important to me than my health. I'd let myself get shot 3 times just to line up the perfect headshot on the Machinegunner across the alley. If I missed, I'd simply withdraw, heal, and try again.

"healing" in shooters will always be bizzare and unrealistic, but still, I'd much rather have a bar and health packs on the ground. Probably best woudl be the option to carry around 2 or 3 healthpacks, this helps meet the needs when different players have trouble in different areas due to different play styles. Player A is great at run-and-gun and is able to stock up on healthpacks provided there but sucks at belly-crawling around spotting the snipers, and needs every single one. Player B needs every single healthpack in the house, but once he is outside bellycrawling, he is always taking headshots and eliminating the enemy with ease. This allows him to build up his health pack supply

 

[akodo]

I'd love to see a shooter game designed where you can pick what character from a list of say 8 different people (maybe 3 at first, more choices unlock) but it isn't like most games where the characters just ahve different gun combinations.

i'd love to see stats like speed (how fast you can run) strength (how much you are slowed by a big load, or how many magazines you can carry) sneaky/stealth, medical skill (get more or less health from a first aid kit)

but most importantly different gun skills. Have a character who is a shotgun expert able to fire and pump his gun extremely fast, have a SWAT guy with an MP5 who is good at holding the gun more steady than most even when moving, etc etc

Lots of times guns will have a bit of zoom when aiming over the iron sights rather than using the crosshairs 'hip shooting' a character good with a certain type of firearms could get more zoom when using that type.

 

[Area 52]

I dislike how in some games, you can be carrying a pistol and be moving the same speed as if you carry a bazooka. Then there are ones where you can carry both the pistol and bazooka, but if you have the pistol selected, you move faster even though you are carrying the bazooka still. Lets see the guns have weight. Halo 3 did very well with this. Also having to do with weight: I do not want to be able to carry every gun in the game at once. If you have played C&C Renegade, you know what I mean. However, telling me I can only carry two guns regardless of weight is dumb. I should be allowed to have a smg, pistol, and shotgun all at once, however I should not be able to have 3 rocket launchers all at once.

Basically what I'm sayin is GIVE GUNS SOME WEIGHT! please.

 

[FMF]

I think "Black" did a good job of depicting the firearms. I think their whole marketing pitch was the accuracy of their gun models. They all function, fire and sound very similar to their real life counterparts. Although ballistics aren't completely accurate at distance weapons like the UZI and SMGs aren't at all accurate in full-auto unless you're up close. Best guns in the game were the SPAS-12 for the close quarters and M4 w/M203 for reaching out and touching somebody.

a little in-game video for those who haven't played it

 

[JImbothefiveth]

Well, I get really ticked off at stuff like GTA, or really anything that glorifies crime, especially when they throw in guns with it. :banghead: Heck, even in stuff like halo it's not tying it in with crime. I would like to see a videogame that glorifies responsible use of guns.(Halo might qualify, "save the humans" seems pretty good to me.) Cabela's has a few games, and I hear there is even a biathlon game in progress. So, if you can find a way to make a best-selling game that promotes responsible use of guns(Maybe have kids play as a cop) I think that would be excellent!

 

[Odd Job]

Hmm... one of the best I've seen as far as weapons handling realism is True Combat Elite.

+1

If you could have that gun handling with better ballistics and more accurate hitboxes, that would be ideal.

 

[XDKingslayer]

I'd love to answer this. Games and guns are two of my favorite hobbies.

1) How do you see the game design industry depictions/uses of firearms in games?

As technology has advanced so has the accuracy of the depictions. It's not just the graphic of the weapon, it's the sound and the way it behaves. Now, what most people don't understand is how boringly similair most military weapons are in performace and how that would make a game boring. So most inaccuracies that you see aren't because the game designers don't understand the weapons, it's to provide a unique experience for each weapon.

2) How visually accuracy are firearms used in games? (Please do not refer to sci-fi guns as they are doubtfully intended to resemble a realistic firearm.)

Again, as graphics technology has advanced so has image accuracy. The weapon skins in a recent game, like Call Of Duty 4, are so accurate it isn't funny.

3) What would you say the most glaring problem in regards to firearms are in games?

Recoil. I think a lot of work needs done in the recoil area. The view through the sight picture and the way it effects accuracy. Few games have even come close. Again, sometimes it's left open for game playability and sometimes it's just a PITA to code for.

4) What would you like to see implemented in the future of games in regards to firearms and the culture surrounding them?

More long range sniper shots that are at least kinda accurate. The main sniper shot in COD4 was amazing.

 

[Zip7]

Make a "Red Dawn" game.

+1

I'm not a big gamer, but seems like every game in which you shoot, is always a military or paramilitary environment. How about you head to the hills and become a guerrilla resistance fighter with an extremely wide variety of weapons available - mostly hunting weapons, revolvers, or whatever you can steal from sporting goods stores, abandoned homes or dead Canadians/Russians/Chinese/Californians who just invaded the U.S..

 

[Gunnerpalace]

Please do not make games with bullet drop in them, while it is accurate it is a massive pain, taking fun out of the game.

It is a game and in the game gamers like to do stuff that is not possible in the "real world".Anyway, I do think that shooting someone in the foot should not be an instant kill, and picking up ammo could be a little more realistic, (have to pull the mag out of the enemy's gun).

 

[DrDeFab]

Lord only knows... 44 caliber?

I suspect you mean 22 caliber rifles

At the risk of thread creep, am I the only one who instantly thought: "Cool! Marlin 1894?"

 

[HB]

Guns are too accurate in some cases, MG's are too controllable, most guns are too powerful, and mag changes are too fast. I like most shoot in games tho, because I'm not playing a game to have it be like real life.

HB

 

[Nero_Atrum]

S.T.A.L.K.E.R. : Shadow of Chernobyl was pretty good with the guns. (Except that everything ejected to the left side.)

 

[scrat]

Good info guys. Scott i hope you let your friends know where you got this knowledge from. I think we can all give you a lot of knowledge. Yet just a handfull og guys are seeing this. I dont play a lot of video games. I guess my favorite is still pretty old and thats beach head 2000. Same as other guys though. the look of the guns and the sounds are very important.