suppressor?

[the Real Alpo]

The ATF doesn't do a background check. Once your paperwork is submitted to the ATF it's currently taking about 4 to 5 months to get your tax stamp back, and during that time there's no actual background check taking place.

Once the tax stamp comes back, you fill out a 4473 like you were buying any other firearm. If you got your silencer (or other Title 2 firearm) through a trust or corporation, your dealer then does a normal instant backgroud check like they would for a normal gun. If you had a sign-off by your chief law enforcement officer that exempts you from the instant background check. Some states have different rules, but that's how it is in most NFA-friendly states.

Why would you have to fill out a 4473? If you check the 2nd page of a Form 4, questions 15 - 20 ARE the questions from a 4473.

https://www.atf.gov/file/61546/download

Only things I don't see there, that are on a 4473, is my race, where I was born, and my social. Since they have my picture, they know my race. I don't give them my Social anyway.

 

[dogtown tom]

the Real Alpo Why would you have to fill out a 4473?

1. Because Federal law requires it.
2. See #1

If you check the 2nd page of a Form 4, questions 15 - 20 ARE the questions from a 4473.

Two different forms, two different purposes.
Form 1's, 3's, 4's are tax documents.
Form 4473 is a Firearm Transaction Record.

 

[the Real Alpo]

I own three submachine guns, one silenced pistol and an AOW.

I did not fill out a 4473 for any of them. The questions are on the Form 4, ATF did a background check, so it was not required.

 

[GarySTL]

When I pick up my cans from my dealer I fill out a 4473. But he doesn't call in for a check. He just files it with all the others. This is for form 4s filled out as an individual. I'm in Missouri.

 

[dogtown tom]

the Real Alpo I own three submachine guns, one silenced pistol and an AOW.

I did not fill out a 4473 for any of them. The questions are on the Form 4, ATF did a background check, so it was not required.

Then your dealer is an idiot.
ATF regulations are very clear on when a Form 4473 is used....just read the instruction on the 4473.

The dealer checks "Other Firearm" on Question 18 Type of Firearm. The instructions to Question 18 are explicit that NFA firearms are recorded as "Other Firearms".

The instructions to Questions 21, 22 7 23 state that a NICS check is not required for transfers of NFA firearms.

 

[yugorpk]

Ive never filled out a 4473 for a NFA purchase in almost 20 times..

 

[pjeski]

Then your dealer is an idiot too.

 

[yugorpk]

Thats 3 different dealers in two states.

 

[Theohazard]

For the people claiming there's a background check performed on you during the tax stamp wait if you're filing as an individual: I still don't understand how anyone can do a proper background check with the small amount of information given on the Form 1 or Form 4. All they have is your name and address.

In contrast, the folks doing the FBI NICS instant background check get the following information:

-Full name
-Place of birth (US state or foreign country)
-Date of birth
-Height
-Weight
-Gender
-Social Security Number (optional)
-Ethnicity
-Race
-State of residence
-Country of citizenship
-US - issued alien number or admission number (if not a US citizen)

And even with all that information, the background check can sometimes take a while to clear. I'd guess that about 5% of people at our shop get delayed, and that's usually because the FBI can't identify the person and clear them quickly enough. This delay can last anywhere from a few minutes to a few weeks (and sometimes more). And sometimes people even get erroneously denied or even erroneously approved when they should have been denied. I once had a guy buy a gun in the morning and get a "proceed", then he bought another gun in the afternoon and got a "deny". According to the very confused FBI NICS examiner, the difference appeared to be that he didn't put his SSN on the 4473 the first time, but he included it the second time. So the second time he was properly identified and then denied, whereas the first time he was misidentified and mistakenly approved.

My point is that if the FBI NICS can still have trouble identifying you even with all the information they have, how can a proper background check be done with just the little bit of personal information that's on a Form 1 or Form 4? Is there more personal information provided on the fingerprint card that I'm not aware of because I've never processed a sign-off?

 

[pjeski]

For the people claiming there's a background check performed on you during the tax stamp wait if you're filing as an individual: I still don't understand how anyone can do a proper background check with the small amount of information given on the Form 1 or Form 4. All they have is your name and address.

In contrast, the folks doing the FBI NICS instant background check get the following information:

-Full name
-Place of birth (US state or foreign country)
-Date of birth
-Height
-Weight
-Gender
-Social Security Number (optional)
-Ethnicity
-Race
-State of residence
-Country of citizenship
-US - issued alien number or admission number (if not a US citizen)

And even with all that information, the background check can sometimes take a while to clear. I'd guess that about 5% of people at our shop get delayed, and that's usually because the FBI can't identify the person and clear them quickly enough. This delay can last anywhere from a few minutes to a few weeks (and sometimes more). And sometimes people even get erroneously denied or even erroneously approved when they should have been denied. I once had a guy buy a gun in the morning and get a "proceed", then he bought another gun in the afternoon and got a "deny". According to the very confused FBI NICS examiner, the difference appeared to be that he didn't put his SSN on the 4473 the first time, but he included it the second time. So the second time he was properly identified and then denied, whereas the first time he was misidentified and mistakenly approved.

My point is that if the FBI NICS can still have trouble identifying you even with all the information they have, how can a proper background check be done with just the little bit of personal information that's on a Form 1 or Form 4? Is there more personal information provided on the fingerprint card that I'm not aware of because I've never processed a sign-off?

https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/identity-history-summary-checks/fd-258-1

 

[Theohazard]

Ive never filled out a 4473 for a NFA purchase in almost 20 times..

Are you positive? I'm not at all accusing you of lying, I just wonder if you're remembering correctly.

I can't tell you how often I've been delivering an NFA item and when I hand the customer the 4473 to fill out, he goes, "Is this new? I didn't have to fill this out the last time I bought a silencer from you." I then have to tactfully explain to him that yes, he did full one out the last time too, he just obviously doesn't remember it.

Or people forget about the WA handgun form: I'll hand it to them along with the 4473 when they go to buy a handgun and they say, "I didn't have to fill this form out the last time I bought a handgun from you guys". And I have to politely tell them that no, the handgun form isn't new and they did indeed have to fill it out the last time they bought a handgun from us.

I've noticed that people fill forms out automatically without really reading the questions. I'd wager that 95% to 98% of people would automatically answer "no" to question 12 on the 4473 if you didn't point out ahead of time that you're supposed to skip that question if you answered "no" on 11l. (Heck, often they still answer 12 even after I point that out). Even though question 11l explicitly instructs you to skip 12 if you answered "no" on 11l, people don't bother reading that, and then when they get to question 12 they don't bother reading the whole question (if you actually read the question you can see that's it's obviously just for aliens admitted to the US under a non-immigrant visa), and almost everyone answers "no" to that question instead of leaving it blank like the instructions say.

Sorry to ramble on, but my point is that I wouldn't be surprised at all if you actually did fill out a 4473 for at least some of those purchases and you just don't remember it.

 

[Theohazard]

https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/id...hecks/fd-258-1

Thanks! I knew I was missing something here. I assume that's the fingerprint form that goes along with a CLEO sign off? It's funny, in my three years of selling NFA items, I've never actually seen one of those. Like I said, virtually everyone here in western WA uses a trust.

 

[pjeski]

As I said earlier, I've never seen one (almost 30 stamps). I googled it.

 

[basicblur]

I've dealt with two different dealers in VA - filled out a 4473 at both of 'em (for a trust).

 

[yugorpk]

Are you positive? I'm not at all accusing you of lying, I just wonder if you're remembering correctly.

I can't tell you how often I've been delivering an NFA item and when I hand the customer the 4473 to fill out, he goes, "Is this new? I didn't have to fill this out the last time I bought a silencer from you." I then have to tactfully explain to him that yes, he did full one out the last time too, he just obviously doesn't remember it.

Or people forget about the WA handgun form: I'll hand it to them along with the 4473 when they go to buy a handgun and they say, "I didn't have to fill this form out the last time I bought a handgun from you guys". And I have to politely tell them that no, the handgun form isn't new and they did indeed have to fill it out the last time they bought a handgun from us.

I've noticed that people fill forms out automatically without really reading the questions. I'd wager that 95% to 98% of people would automatically answer "no" to question 12 on the 4473 if you didn't point out ahead of time that you're supposed to skip that question if you answered "no" on 11l. (Heck, often they still answer 12 even after I point that out). Even though question 11l explicitly instructs you to skip 12 if you answered "no" on 11l, people don't bother reading that, and then when they get to question 12 they don't bother reading the whole question (if you actually read the question you can see that's it's obviously just for aliens admitted to the US under a non-immigrant visa), and almost everyone answers "no" to that question instead of leaving it blank like the instructions say.

Sorry to ramble on, but my point is that I wouldn't be surprised at all if you actually did fill out a 4473 for at least some of those purchases and you just don't remember it.

I'm sure. Only time I've filled out a 4473 is when I bought something else at the same time like a receiver.

 

[USAF_Vet]

Would it make a difference if a stamp was approved on a form 1 (manufacture) versus a Form 4 (transfer)? I'd assume you'd fill out a 4473 on a transfer, but not on a manufacture.

 

[Midwest]

Supposedly Teddy Roosevelt used a (silencer, suppressor, moderator, muffler, can, hearing protector) on his Long Island NY property so he would not disturb his neighbors.

Sadly, if Ol' Teddy tried that today on his own property in New York. He would be promptly arrested, be put in chains in front of the news media and the governor would hold a press conference to say they caught a dangerous criminal and terrorist.
.

 

[yugorpk]

Are you positive? I'm not at all accusing you of lying, I just wonder if you're remembering correctly.

I can't tell you how often I've been delivering an NFA item and when I hand the customer the 4473 to fill out, he goes, "Is this new? I didn't have to fill this out the last time I bought a silencer from you." I then have to tactfully explain to him that yes, he did full one out the last time too, he just obviously doesn't remember it.

Or people forget about the WA handgun form: I'll hand it to them along with the 4473 when they go to buy a handgun and they say, "I didn't have to fill this form out the last time I bought a handgun from you guys". And I have to politely tell them that no, the handgun form isn't new and they did indeed have to fill it out the last time they bought a handgun from us.

I've noticed that people fill forms out automatically without really reading the questions. I'd wager that 95% to 98% of people would automatically answer "no" to question 12 on the 4473 if you didn't point out ahead of time that you're supposed to skip that question if you answered "no" on 11l. (Heck, often they still answer 12 even after I point that out). Even though question 11l explicitly instructs you to skip 12 if you answered "no" on 11l, people don't bother reading that, and then when they get to question 12 they don't bother reading the whole question (if you actually read the question you can see that's it's obviously just for aliens admitted to the US under a non-immigrant visa), and almost everyone answers "no" to that question instead of leaving it blank like the instructions say.

Sorry to ramble on, but my point is that I wouldn't be surprised at all if you actually did fill out a 4473 for at least some of those purchases and you just don't remember it.

Just picked up a few stamped forms a few weeks ago. I know what a 4473 looks like. I was a dealer for a decade. it was always a conversation with my class 3 when I picked up why I wasnt filling one out.

 

[the Real Alpo]

edit: never mind. I misread a question, so was answering a question that was not asked.

 

[pjeski]

Would it make a difference if a stamp was approved on a form 1 (manufacture) versus a Form 4 (transfer)? I'd assume you'd fill out a 4473 on a transfer, but not on a manufacture.

Correct. Form 4473 is for transfers.

 

[dogtown tom]

yugorpk Just picked up a few stamped forms a few weeks ago. I know what a 4473 looks like. I was a dealer for a decade. it was always a conversation with my class 3 when I picked up why I wasnt filling one out.

If you were a dealer then you should know that a 4473 would be required anytime a dealer transfers a firearm.

pjeski

Quote:
Originally Posted by USAF_Vet View Post
Would it make a difference if a stamp was approved on a form 1 (manufacture) versus a Form 4 (transfer)? I'd assume you'd fill out a 4473 on a transfer, but not on a manufacture.

Correct. Form 4473 is for transfers.

To be more precise......transfers from dealers.
A transfer between two nonlicensees who reside in the same state would only require a Form 4.