Suppressors

[Misplacedtexan]

Been bugging me and had to ask.
Why do suppressors cost almost as much as the gun you want to install it on?
Am I missing something here?

 

[12Bravo20]

American made suppressors are designed and built to last a long time since there are a lot of hoops to jump through to get one. Not many people are willing to take the time to file a Form 4, wait months on end and pay a $200 tax just to buy a cheap disposable suppressor. Most people that go through the trouble of filing a Form 4, paying the $200 tax and then waiting for months want a quality suppressor that is going to last a long time.

While European countries have strict gun laws, they are lax on suppressors to the point that most countries encourage their use (for noise pollution control). Since suppressors are NOT regulated in most European countries, one will find cheap suppressors that are pretty much disposable.

 

[General Geoff]

^^All of what @12Bravo20 said.

Ridiculous government paperwork, wait times, and tax stamp have made the silencer market favor extremely well-built, robust cans that are often user-serviceable for cleaning.

If they were removed from the NFA, you'd be able to buy a cheap silencer for $50 or less within a month. Or build one with hardware store parts for about $10.

 

[AK Hunter]

Why do suppressors cost almost as much as the gun you want to install it on?

Because they know people will pay that much. A good scope will cost 2 to 3 times what the gun costs.
I agree with the General that if they remove it from the NFA list the price will drop fast.

 

[230RN]

Because they know people will pay that much. A good scope will cost 2 to 3 times what the gun costs.
I agree with the General that if they remove it from the NFA list the price will drop fast.
(Bolding,. underlining mine)

If "they" means the ATF, wouldn't that be legislating by an agency rather than by the Legislature? I believe a government Agency got spanked for that recently.

There are things an agency can do, and there are things an agency can no longer do.

 

[PzGren]

ATF charges a special annual occupational tax of $500 to $1,000 for manufacturers of NFA items but that alone does not explain why a B&T silencer in Germany cost about one third of what a comparable silencer costs here. In Germany a silencer needs to be added to the firearm license and is regulated.
I disagree with 12Bravo20 on his statement, that silencers here are better made than in Scandinavia, Germany, or Switzerland. That is pretty much like a claim that a Chevy is better made and should cost more than a Mercedes or a Volvo but European cars can be imported to the U.S., silencers cannot.

Euro 587 include 19% V.A.T. and with the current exchange rate that's about $580
B&T QD™ SMG/PDW suppressor, Cal. 9x19mm – B&T AG (bt-ag.ch)

 

[rust collector]

I think the point being made is that due to tax and regulation, the bottom tier of suppressors is not as common or attractive as the better spec lines. That is not the same as saying US cans are better. We certainly think the Euro approach to suppressors is the wiser one, but we are stuck with what we have until that part of the national firearms act (NFA) is legislatively modified.

 

[12Bravo20]

I disagree with 12Bravo20 on his statement, that silencers here are better made than in Scandinavia, Germany, or Switzerland. That is pretty much like a claim that a Chevy is better made and should cost more than a Mercedes or a Volvo but European cars can be imported to the U.S., silencers cannot.

You misinterpreted what I said and maybe I should have been more specific too.

Yes European suppressors are just as good as US suppressors (depending on who makes them). But there IS a lot of cheap suppressors available in Europe that are almost to the point of being disposable too.

 

[Odd Job]

Moved to NFA firearms and accessories.

The cost of a very good .22 suppressor here is about £85 retail. That's for an A-TEC CMM6 (those are made in Norway).
That suppressor, although aluminium (aluminum as you guys say across the pond) is a quality can, capable of taking a lot of abuse. I have two of those and my club bought another 11. The first one I bought has had 35,000 rounds through it without being cleaned, not even sprayed or rapped on a desk. Still going fine!

Having said that, yes we do have the "cheap seats" cans. Here's one I bought for £60 retail:



It is hearing safe with the correct ammunition, it just isn't as quiet as an A-TEC. But then again it is a small, light suppressor and it is marketed as such. If that can blew up on me I would not cry one bit. Those are indeed registered items in the UK, but the hoops we have to jump through are much more accessible and not as numerous as in the US.

 

[jmorris]

The same reason anything made in America, in small quantities, costs a lot.

If Harbor Freight was allowed to sell them by the container load, they would be $19.95 and probably not last as long, like other tools they make.

There are items quite similar, as far as machine work goes, the ATF would say exactly like, suppressors, that don’t cost much at all.

 

[dogtown tom]

The same reason anything made in America, in small quantities, costs a lot.

If Harbor Freight was allowed to sell them by the container load, they would be $19.95 and probably not last as long, like other tools they make.

There are items quite similar, as far as machine work goes, the ATF would say exactly like, suppressors, that don’t cost much at all.

To be fair, the retail price of a silencer in the US is more than just the cost of raw materials and production.
Silencer companies believe it or not actually spend $$$ on research and development as weel as liability insurance.....the solvent traps in your photo likely didn't incur such cost because whoever in China that made them did so by copying someone else's design.

If your US made silencer breaks, needs repair, or there is a catastrophic incident causing injury......those expenses are built into the retail price. Not at all likely that Wish.com is going to help you with an insurance claim on a silencer made by some anonymous CNC machine in China.

NOTHING prevents any US machinist from churning out $19.95 silencers today. All he needs is an 07FFL @ $150 for three years, $500 per year for his SOT and ITAR $2250 per year I believe.

 

[LocoGringo]

Regulation...that's why.

 

[MachIVshooter]

Oh, boy. Lol.

The $2,800/yr in licensing & DDTC registration, $2k on CAD/CAM software, the $8k in liability insurance I pay, a few thousand in utilities......nothing compared to machines and tooling. I'm a small manufacturer, and we've dropped over a hundred grand on machines, tooling, consumables and bar stock since July. The WIRE for powering my Mazak Integrex 200 SY was $1,400. The tool measuring eye on my SQT15M failed last year, that was a $3,600 repair.

Manufacturing is hideously expensive. You think quality automotive tools are spendy? Start looking at all things machining and CNC, from the machines themselves to tool holders to carbide inserts and end mills. I spend more in a year on consumables than a career mechanic will have invested in a lifetime of buying Snap-On stuff. We'll burn about $400 worth of inserts in a week on ONE lathe.

Yes, we could make European style aluminum monocores cheaply. But they're loud and not very durable. So we build proper baffled cans using PH stainless steels, titanium, Inconel. These are not cheap materials, they are much harder on tooling, slower to machine, and we're using a lot more material per can to do it right. My 8" Accipiter model, a $550 large magnum and full auto rated rifle suppressor, uses 22" of 1-5/8 17-4 stainless bar stock to machine the blast chamber, 8 baffles and cap, then I have to finish bore and clip the baffles, then thoroughly clean parts with acetone, align them, fusion tig weld, finish machine after weldment, heat treat, engrave, bead blast, Moly Resin finish. It's a process. Not to mention what it took to develop that can and my other 16 models. Lots of cans made, minor tweaks in an iterative process, testing on a very expensive impulse sound meter, lots of rounds & time for accuracy testing and destructive testing to failure on machine guns.

The aluminum monocore .22 can Odd Job posted above has two parts, minimal threading & fitment, uses almost exactly the same amount of tube and bar stock the finished product represents. My Salamander model, pictured below, is made of titanium and stainless steel and has 13 individually machined parts. 10 nested baffles, a tube threaded on both ends, threaded front cap, mount with internal and external threading, lots of precision fitment involved. It's also quieter than those monocore cans despite being significantly smaller at 3/4" diameter by 5" long and only 2.5 ounces, yet it can still handle .17 HMR due to the high strength materials used. 6.5 times the parts, much more expensive materials, lots more machine time and manual labor. That's why it costs 4 times as much, and the performance justifies it.

 

[Odd Job]

Yes, we could make European style aluminum monocores cheaply. But they're loud and not very durable.

The A-TEC CMM6 is certainly very quiet, as good as any other suppressor I have heard at our range. I don't know if it qualifies as monocore though, but it certainly is aluminium. And it is durable, I have proved it, in fact I am actively trying to destroy it!

Here are the baffles of another CMM6. I am not saying the tooling to make this suppressor is cheap, but this suppressor will stand with any other and it is only £85 retail:

The aluminum monocore .22 can Odd Job posted above has two parts, minimal threading & fitment, uses almost exactly the same amount of tube and bar stock the finished product represents.

It is cheap, no doubt! I am not convinced it is aluminum entirely, I believe the core is GRP or similar, I'll see if I can find out.

Another cheap one is the Hogan Decimeater. This has to be the very definition of rudimentary, yet the can works well:



Would you want that in the US? Depends what the ATF's stance is on the replacement of the "brillo pads" around the core segments. Here I can replace that at will. I suspect it wouldn't hold up to 35,000 rounds uncleaned and maintained like the A-TEC.

 

[jmorris]

To be fair, the retail price of a silencer in the US is more than just the cost of raw materials and production.
Silencer companies believe it or not actually spend $$$ on research and development as weel as liability insurance.....the solvent traps in your photo likely didn't incur such cost because whoever in China that made them did so by copying someone else's design.

If we are being fair , also have to count other Federal regulations, State minimum wage laws, workman’s comp & unemployment insurance, State occupational license, business license and other local regulations, equipment as far as machining, welding, rotary positioners etc. cost of “exotic” materials like Inconel, Ti, not to mention the tooling it takes to make them something other than a solid bar, Customer calls non stop, both inquisitive about products not yet created as well as repair. Insurance and lawyers on retainer when they spit hot coffee on themselves because your product was so quiet….

 

[MachIVshooter]

The A-TEC CMM6 is certainly very quiet, as good as any other suppressor I have heard at our range. I don't know if it qualifies as monocore though, but it certainly is aluminium. And it is durable, I have proved it, in fact I am actively trying to destroy it!

No, that's not a monocore. Screw together modular would be what it's considered here. There are a few on the US market, and they're definitely more expensive.

I've made numerous rimfire cans with aluminum, and in fact when I have the time to hammer out the CAM file and set up the high pressure gun drill, we will have an inexpensive aluminum monocore model available. But it won't be rated for 5.7x28 and .22 Hornet like our Ocelot .22 can, and as with other monocores, it won't perform as well on pistols, namely the first round pop. Hearing safe, sure, but definitely not in the same league.

Would you want that in the US? Depends what the ATF's stance is on the replacement of the "brillo pads" around the core segments. Here I can replace that at will. I suspect it wouldn't hold up to 35,000 rounds uncleaned and maintained like the A-TEC.

The pads would be considered silencer parts and regulated. It's absolutely ridiculous.

The inability to easily replace the can or parts is what drives the US market to use stronger, tougher, more easily cleaned and much more expensive materials. People just really balk at aluminum. I used to give an aluminum core option on some models at a lower price point, they did not sell. Titanium and stainless steel can be dropped into an ultrasonic cleaner with some nasty compounds that will turn aluminum into sludge.

I've jailbroken and recored enough rimfire and pistol cans to understand why it matters to folks, and it's not uncommon for baffles made of the weaker material to be damaged or broken trying to get them out of a high round count sealed can. We also see tube failures and mount or cap thread failures with aluminum that don't happen with Ti and stainless. Last week I repaired a Gemtech Multimount 9mm that had ripped off at the rear thread termination on a 9mm carbine, fortunately behind the engraving. A new titanium piece was created to replace the missing inch and finer, shallower, longer threads used to couple it to the tube so it wouldn't happen again. Meanwhile, my Phoenix XLV .45 pistol can with it's. 035" wall titanium tube (45% thinner than the Multimount 9mm tube) survived mag dumps on our M16 and our full auto .308 with a 13" barrel.

In the UK, I'm sure the equivalent of that Multimount would have been a bit cheaper, and replacement would be easy. But here, there's the $200 tax stamp, the dealer transfer fees (typically $100-$150) and 7-12 month wait attached, so it was worth it to this customer to repair the thing. People here will often spend up to the retail price of a can to fix and upgrade for that reason because they're still $300+ cheaper than replacing and don't have to wait. Our recores typically range from low $200 range for simple rimfires to over $500 for complete overhauls of centerfire cans, replacing everything but the tube (new tube=new stamp) with higher performance parts and mounting options compatible with modern industry standard stuff.

 

[gotboostvr]

Why do suppressors cost almost as much as the gun you want to install it on?

Heck, I recently put together a combo that the can cost about twice as much as the host!

 

[starling]

They are legal in my state but I wont jump through the hoops as its rediculous. Once they finally take the restrictions off I will jump on them for my main range shooters. Its the first thing I would like to be made open. Absolutely rediculous that a safety item is this restricted. Never made sense before and still doesnt. Stupid people let Hollywood trick them into thinking that people who have safety device are some sort of ninja assassin. Kinda funny how violent crimes with firearms continue without all these ninja "silencers" yet here we are. I have never heard a logical reason why they are so restricted BTW.

Until then its ear plugs and muffs for hearing protection.

 

[gotboostvr]

Never made sense before and still doesnt. Stupid people let Hollywood trick them into thinking that people who have safety device are some sort of ninja assassin... I have never heard a logical reason why they are so restricted BTW.

To my understanding they were originally restricted to hinder poachers.

 

[starling]

To my understanding they were originally restricted to hinder poachers.

Ah.. I was under the impression that poaching itself was already illegal.

 

[Soonerpesek]

Ah.. I was under the impression that poaching itself was already illegal.

Yes.........................But if you can't hear a poacher....................well, you get the idea...

 

[starling]

Yes.........................But if you can't hear a poacher....................well, you get the idea...

Of course but its a pretty silly reason. Kind of like taking firearms away from law abiding citizens because someone decides to rob a bank or commit murder.

Might as well go the dummy route and have suppressors engraved with "range use only" or "not to be used for poaching"....better yet... "Grow up...dont be an ass..use this suppresor for legal purposes only".

 

[12Bravo20]

@dogtown tom and @MachIVshooter both brought up good points.

Machines, tooling, etc are not cheap. Labor costs for a journeyman machinist and CNC programmers aren't cheap either. And the going shop rate for most machine shops is about $85 per hour. And that doesn't even include all of the licenses needed or associated fees/taxes that goes along with said licenses. And you have to add in the cost of insurance, liability for the product along with health insurance for the workers. Plus the fact that American made silencers all have warranties too.

As a journeyman tool and die maker, I would hear the shipping workers complain that a loaf of bread cost them the same as us. But what they did not take into account was the 2 years of schooling or the 2-4 year apprenticeship programs we had to go through. Or the fact that their tools only cost a few hundred dollars while our tools cost thousands of dollars.

 

[a_canadian]

Regarding the origin of limitations/bans on suppressors (such as the outright ban for civilian use in Canada, or your inconsistently applied at state level NFA), I suspect the bulk of the blame goes to advertising. Maxim pushed these devices as 'Silencers' - had that word stamped right on the product, and his ad copy was all about shooting so quietly that nobody would hear you. That's scary to non-firearm people.

Fast forward to our era and Hollywood perpetuates the same imagery. The vast majority don't have enough knowledge nor experience to differentiate between hyperbole and reality, and movies/TV shows are frankly more engaging than reality anyway, so why not believe that moderators, suppressors, and 'silencers' actually render firearm reports silent or very nearly so? It's easy, same as saying COVID-19 will end our species if we don't cooperate with nonsensical rules and allow gene therapy concoctions to be injected into our bodies. Easy to go along with a prevailing narrative, especially when it's packaged and advertised nicely. So James Bond shoots his little pistol and it makes a mouse fart noise and people believe it. And for the next 60 years (has it been that long?!) one film after another represents these devices in the same way, with extremely rare exceptions, most films actually using the same sound file.

And then there are politicians trying to retain power. One of the easiest ways to pull that trick is to scare people. Scaring them with something like mean looking black firearms is easy, always a good selling point for a politician without any real platform, and not an honest bone in his/her body. Add a silencer and it's scary and sneaky at the same time, and if allowed for civilian use, heck, we could all be assassinated next week and nobody would even notice the gunshots! So more advertising happens, but this time to sell the idea of banning them because they make guns too quiet (a bad thing), rather than trying to sell them because they make guns amazingly quiet (a good thing). And manufacturers are complicit, continuing to boast in slick Youtube videos about how incredibly quiet their products will make your guns - every single advertiser guilty of giving the gun grabbers more ad copy to push to their voters.

And I don't blame manufacturers. Heck, when I show off a new suppressor to someone and they grin because it's so quiet, I get a warm and fuzzy feeling. It's good when we succeed. But it's also kind of a trap, in which we're very thoroughly stuck. I very much Canada will make owning or making these things legal any time soon, probably never. Doesn't matter to our government that in the UK one can buy such devices cheaply at gun shops. It's like taxes; very hard to reel them back in once instituted. Gun grabs, and by extension suppressor grabs, are only getting worse, until major changes happen to how government works...