Supressor questions

[MGshaggy]

Obviously it worked for me because my NFA AK is in my hands with no legal problems.

Thats the heart of my concern with trusts. BATFE hasn't really looked at the substantive provisions of these trusts to see that they comply with relevant state laws regarding the formation of a valid trust prior to approval. As I now understand it, the new head of NFA is not as gun friendly as Ken Houchens was, and rumor has it he may now be investigating the terms in these trusts to see if there are any problems which could invalidate the trust. Note that NFA will no longer approva a transfer where only a simple certificate of trust has been submitted, but they now require the declarations so they can see the substantive terms. My guess is that they are going to be paying more attention to trusts and specific trust terms.

Whichever way you go, double & triple check EVERYTHING before the paperwork is finally sent off the the Feds.

100% agreement on that point, but if you don't have it drawn up by a lawyer in your state, I think at least an hour or so of lawyer time to review the trust terms should be considered part of your due dilligence and double check before sending it off.

 

[Gunnerpalace]

Go private route if you can, trusts adds more paperwork and time, but in turn you don't need (at least I don't think) a CLEO signoff and if you have other names in the trust or something like that they can access it as well. At least my understanding of trust.

Gemtech,AWC,YMH, just avoid AAC.

 

[DoubleTapDrew]

The WillMaker software was $20, and getting things notarized cost another 20 bucks. I can understand the recommendation to go to an attorney, but I am just too frugal for that.

You might want a attorney to look it over just to be sure. You have a SBR and a stamp but if they decide to look at trusts with more scrutiny it could turn into an unregistered NFA weapon, and that could require much, much higher attorney fees, or at the very least surrender the gun. It's not unheard of for the ATF to change their mind (look up Akins Accelerator) after the fact.
I love the sound of the trust, mainly for the fact you can name other people authorized to use it, but the controversy about it makes me hesitant to try using one.

 

[IRONFIST]

All valid points, but from what I've heard is that BATFE is already going over Trust declarations with staff attorneys before giving them the stamp of approval.

That is why it is now taking longer than it used to.

While the BATFE could probably easily change course and disallow the use of Trusts, having the signed, stamped, approval letter with the magic stamp attached would give me serious legal leverage when filing a class-action suit to contest their arbitrary decision.

Consider the argument that could be made in a civil court case when I can show the jury that I met all ownership criteria set by the government, created the completely legal paperwork, paid my $200 fee to the government in good faith, and waited patiently to legally alter my weapon until after I received government permission to do so.

Then one day they somehow decide it isn't legal? I would be happy to take a case like that to a jury.

In a class-action suit it wouldn't just be me either, it would be hundreds of folks in similar situation.

I think at the very least we would be looking at our NFA weapons being grandfathered into legal status, and possible even some kind of cash settlement so the government could put it behind them.

Personally I think that it is a legal anthill they won't want to step in, but I have been wrong before.

 

[MGshaggy]

having the signed, stamped, approval letter with the magic stamp attached would give me serious legal leverage when filing a class-action suit to contest their arbitrary decision.

Hate to break it to 'ya but possession of the stamp is not dispositive of legal ownership. A few years ago NFA decided they didn't believe the approved & stamped forms for a C&R MP40 were valid and seized the gun and destroyed it. Turns out the form was valid, but that wasn't discovered until after the weapon was destroyed. (and to my knowledge, the owner did not seek restitution as his legal fees would have been significantly more than the value of the gun)

In a class-action suit it wouldn't just be me either, it would be hundreds of folks in similar situation.

I think you misunderstand the nature of the risk here. It would not be a blanket recission of approvals for all trusts, but would rather be on an ad hoc basis, dependant upon the specific provisions in each particular trust. If a particular trust was properly created and executed, it would be fine, but if a particular trust had problems affecting its validity due to provisions therein or changes in the applicable state law, it could be invalidated, thus leaving the individual in possession of an NFA weapon not registered to them individually.

Personally I think that it is a legal anthill they won't want to step in, but I have been wrong before.

Never underestimate the willingness of BATFE to backtrack on previous opinions or approvals, regardless of the potential legal consequences. Two words to remember - Akins Accelerator.

 

[Gun Wielding Maniac]

An earlier poster asked if moving a suppressor from one gun to another required an additional $200 for each gun. No, it does not.

In fact, many suppressors are made with quick detach points. Some are sold with Flash hiders which replace the original FH and allow a suppressor to be changed from one gun to another in seconds. An example is the AAC SPR/M4 or M4-2000... also the YHM Phantom.

 

[Cacafuego]

Because unlike a corporate entity, as an individual there are no annual filings to be made. If you forget a required filing, your corp. may cease to exist under your state's law leaving you in possession of an NFA weapon not registered to you individually. There can also be annual fees, business licenses, etc., all of which must be maintained to keep the corp valid.

With a trust, you have to be very careful as to how you set it up and you should consult an attorney in your state to do it. Many people say you can use an off-the-shelf software package, but I've seen NFA holding trusts created that have significant problems which could technically invalidate the trust, again leaving you in possession of an NFA weapon not registered to you individually.

As an individual, there are no annual filings, no need to consult an attorney or stay current on developments in corporate or trust/eststes law that could affect the entity (corp or trust) holding the NFA item

Points to ponder. Thanks.

 

[NAK]

Baffle designs, db reduction, supersonic crack...all confusing stuff.


With a can on my AR, I hear the spent rounds clink as they fall into the bag of my brass catcher

 

[rfurtkamp]

Note that NFA will no longer approva a transfer where only a simple certificate of trust has been submitted, but they now require the declarations so they can see the substantive terms. My guess is that they are going to be paying more attention to trusts and specific trust terms.

Even with the increased scrutiny, I'm happy with my trust transactions and ATF thusfar.

Not begging Sheriff Mommy for permission alone is worth the one-time additional hassle and expense.

I don't want to hear 'the lecture' on why I don't need a MP5K or another can or whatever I feel like at the time.

My rights are my rights, not subject to some pathetic oaf currently running for re-election here locally. It's bad enough we have to deal with ATF, but why include any more moronic levels of bureaucracy in the equation than necessary?

 

[no_problem]

A picture is worth a thousand words. D)

 

[PTK]

Gemtech,AWC,YMH, just avoid AAC.

Odd, they're ALL good manufacturers... I'd say AAC is top notch, followed by AWC, Gemtech, then YMH.

 

[contenderman]

Correia, thanks for the polite feedback.

Of course you and the others are right, never said you were not. There IS a significant reduction in sound level. That's not been my point.

Before anyone sharpens their spikes and jumps on ... my point is:

What was/is the OP's objective. Noise reduction to improve hearing protection? Looks slick and trick and fun? ... or ... "stealth" the gun?

If the objective is hearing protection, my point is that there is some super effective protection out there that costs less than a suppressor and does not have the licensing requirements.

If the objective is slick, trick, fun? Heck yes go for it and previous posters have given you some good options to pursue.

If the objective is "stealth" ... then you have not gotten the job done. The report (while being lower) can still be heard and identified for what it is (gun shot) at appreciable distances.

The sonic, sub-sonic issue(s) I'm just letting them lie where I left them. Go buy some of both type of ammo, fire them and appreciate the difference yourself. Don't make a difference if the gun your using is suppressed or not you'll hear the difference. How your gun functions with the lower power ammo is strictly a design/mechanical issue.

Suppressors DO work ... better for some calibers than others and on some types of guns than others. And, last but not least ... some styles and mfg. work better than others, and generally the better they get the more they cost.

Oh BTW ... Correia, best of luck with your book, another of my "passions" is reading both fiction and non-fiction. I hope you get it finished and published soon. Remember Clancy sold insurance before his break through, so there's no reason an accountant can't make the big time too.

 

[LiquidTension]

Odd, they're ALL good manufacturers... I'd say AAC is top notch, followed by AWC, Gemtech, then YMH.

AWC's Thundertrap is a nice can. I don't have any experience with their cam-lock mount (on the Raider), but I do take exception to their website claim that other QD mounts adversely affect accuracy.

Some of the YHM stuff is really nice. Apparently the new Cobras are pretty quiet in spite of only having 3 slant baffles in them. The Mite is an inexpensive take apart .22 can, but it's louder than other offerings.

I don't drink the Gemtech koolaid. Especially not after they released their multimount, where they obviously stole the mount design from AAC. The parts interchange - come on, ***?

I do drink the AAC koolaid. I've met everyone up there and they're all cool. Their products are top notch, though sometimes more expensive than others. They're also SOLID. Take a look at the welds on an AAC vs a Gemtech - no competition.

 

[Beren]

Let's not turn this thread into a "which koolaid tastes better" debate. There's plenty of mud to toss on both sides of the Gemtech/AAC debate, and speaking personally (not as a mod), I'd rather not see it slung here. Speak positively based on your personal experiences, and don't trash what you don't own.

Next thing you know, we'll be debating 9mm v. 45, 4150 v. 4140 barrel steel, and Batman v. Spiderman.

 

[rfurtkamp]

If the objective is hearing protection, my point is that there is some super effective protection out there that costs less than a suppressor and does not have the licensing requirements.

Once you have one NFA item, the tax stamp issues are pretty much irrelevant IMO.

If the objective is "stealth" ... then you have not gotten the job done. The report (while being lower) can still be heard and identified for what it is (gun shot) at appreciable distances.

Doesn't jive with my rifle can experiences - the tonal qualities change substantially, enough that it's not immediately identifiable.

That and even with supersonic ammo it muffles the origin point substantially.

I can shoot on some property here with my .308 (which I prefer in general to the .223 but it's another story) and can using regular ol' Nato surplus, get zero neighbor complaints or notice. Take the can off, and it gets noticed. And for the preemptive online knowitalls, legal silencer, legal to shoot where it's being shot, know the backstop, insert buzzphrases here.

Batman v. Spiderman

Spiderman webbing would be far more tactical on my HVT than a Batlogo imo.

 

[MGshaggy]

Next thing you know, we'll be debating 9mm v. 45, 4150 v. 4140 barrel steel, and Batman v. Spiderman.

I'll take Spiderman with a 4140 framed .45

 

[LiquidTension]

Fair enough, Beren.

The only Gemtech can I have used is an Outback II. It was louder than other .22 cans, including my inexpensive Innovative Arms can. I just don't see the point in spending more money for a louder can unless it has some special feature like the ability to take it apart for cleaning.

AAC has put a lot of money into their machinery and it shows in the quality of their cans. The construction is top notch. Fully welded, excellent finish, and lighter than other cans. On top of it all, the SPR/M4 and M4-2000 cans are quieter than almost every other .223 can on the market. At the Silencer Shoot a few weeks ago I had the opportunity to fire several different manufacturers' cans side by side. With the exception of the Prodigy, the AAC cans were the quietest. Knight's Armament, Liberty Suppressors, Innovative Arms, and SWR were all there.

As to the OP, do you have a preference for QD or thread mount? I prefer QD as I like to not worry about torquing the can back on after a half a mag, and I like the ability to swap the can quickly to different guns.

 

[xx7grant7x]

One thing about suppressed ARs is the gassing. You'll get a ton of gas in your face coming up over the charging handle. It doesn't hurt, but man is it annoying. ATV sealant (available at car stores) will fix it.

PRI gasbuster charging handle?

 

[Cacafuego]

Batman v. Spiderman

Oh, Batman. No contest.

 

[gnut]

So what manufacturer has removable cleanable design? I am not referring to dip-in-solvent technique, rather the take it all apart and tediously maintain it type. Any ideas on life expectancy of 22 rimfire 16+inch barrelled, single shot target rifle? Price is an issue. But, I will be spending alittle bit anyhoo. This is not for cool factor or absolute sound quality but rather an easy way to keep a nosy neighbor (thoeretical) from becoming concerned (nosy). Any legal help is appreciated but I plan on going private. My brother-in-law is local LE. Thanks.

 

[Ranb]

I made my own silencer on a form 1 for my ar-15. It is a bit louder than an unsuppressed 22 rifle, but less noisy than a 22 pistol. It is the best $40 plus tax I ever spent on my gun collection. It is 4130 steel 1.5" by 7" with welded endcaps and K baffles mounted on a muzzle brake I made for the barrel. The first baffle is hard to make, the rest are very easy.

Ranb