thunder173
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Surprising damage from a 380.
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Some years ago a 20 yo came to ER to do x-rays with a severe back pain for an injury from heavywork. When I check the film I saw one object at R upper quadrant, and the second at the pelvic plane; I asked what happend. He explained to me that he was robbed with his mother in Venezuela, he cross the fire line to save his mother. He lost almost the complete liver and part of the bowel. The ammo used was .38 (his words) and three months at the hospital saved him. What saved him was that none of the shot hit the aorta which will kill you by internal bleeding without assistance. He related to me how painful was the episode. By the way, he had a compressed disc.
CzHen
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CzHen
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JustinJ
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"Quite a few people die from shots to the gut.."
But remember, we're not after death but ASAP incapacitation.
There are LOTS of nerves in the gut but adrenaline can overcome a LOT of pain so i'd still say the chest is the best bet if one is in a life or death situation.
Its also been said that a gun shot wound to the knee is one of the most painful things one can experience.
But remember, we're not after death but ASAP incapacitation.
There are LOTS of nerves in the gut but adrenaline can overcome a LOT of pain so i'd still say the chest is the best bet if one is in a life or death situation.
Its also been said that a gun shot wound to the knee is one of the most painful things one can experience.
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snooperman
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If all I can get is a gut shot, I will take it
Incapacitation can come in many ways and so can death. Many criminals have been shot by police in the chest more than once and have lived to go to trial. There are no absolutes and one has to take the best shot regardless of the situation. One can not count on chest shots. The bad guy most often has the advantage and you may be lying on the ground in a pool of your own blood before you can draw your gun. A great deal of research has been done in all of this by Ed Lovette and others , and it would be beneficial to read the real life situations that are in their books.
Incapacitation can come in many ways and so can death. Many criminals have been shot by police in the chest more than once and have lived to go to trial. There are no absolutes and one has to take the best shot regardless of the situation. One can not count on chest shots. The bad guy most often has the advantage and you may be lying on the ground in a pool of your own blood before you can draw your gun. A great deal of research has been done in all of this by Ed Lovette and others , and it would be beneficial to read the real life situations that are in their books.
withdrawn34
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Note the story is about FMJ. The concern over penetration is about JHP in 380 ACP.
ccsniper
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1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Worth repeating:
The .380 may not be a Romp'em/Stomp'em round...but it's not a joke.
The .380 may not be a Romp'em/Stomp'em round...but it's not a joke.
leadaddict
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- I would hope they were gelatin of the eatable variety, preferably lemon flavored. Drat! Now I'm hungry.
JustinJ
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"If all I can get is a gut shot, I will take it"
Nobody is arguing the chest or nothing. My arguement is that the preffered target is the chest. Of course there is no guarantee of immediate incapacitation, even with headshots, but tactically the chest is what one should aim for and preferrably with a round that has the highest chance of damaging the most amount of tissue, within reason. Ideally, multiple hits will be made so a gun that one can control and make rapid follow up shots is prefferable. Another plus to chest shots is that there is also a chance of damaging the pectoralis or deltoid muscles to the extent that the adversary becomes unable to wield his weapon.
Nobody is arguing the chest or nothing. My arguement is that the preffered target is the chest. Of course there is no guarantee of immediate incapacitation, even with headshots, but tactically the chest is what one should aim for and preferrably with a round that has the highest chance of damaging the most amount of tissue, within reason. Ideally, multiple hits will be made so a gun that one can control and make rapid follow up shots is prefferable. Another plus to chest shots is that there is also a chance of damaging the pectoralis or deltoid muscles to the extent that the adversary becomes unable to wield his weapon.
Seven For Sure
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I'm nitpicking here but if one has 100% faith in caliber A for any and all situations one may encounter; why rather have caliber B?
It comes down to the real world here. Smaller guns are easier to have on you all the time. Even high powered rifle cartridges don't kill or stop with one shot 100% of the time.
I've bounced 90 gr. gold dots off the bottom of a water filled plastic apple juice bottle at 3 or 4 yards with my Kahr 380. Warm and fuzzy with it alone? No, but I have it in my pocket working in the yard and on dog walks. I may have it running in the storemfor milk or something but there is something more powerful and higher capacity in my vehicle. Fight back to the Glock to fight back to the AK. Sometimes you have to trust your decision making and live life.
I carry a .380 daily as my primary CCW during the warm months. I feel just fine with it for day to day carry. To and from my place of work, a trip to the store, just being out and about during the day, I feel perfectly protected with 7 rounds of .380. Center mass, gut shot, head shot, shot to the thigh, all I'm looking for is to dump as many rounds as I can safely into the target and get the hell out of Dodge.
There is a certain amount of risk management on all of our parts. If I am going downtown after dark, I do not carry a .380. It's a .45 or a high capacity 9mm. Am I going to need that much firepower, statistics say no. However, when there is a numerous amount obvious extraneous variables that could mean a dangerous situation, why chance it. That said, I simply don't have the desire (or the kind of career that allows it) to walk around with a concealed full size gun.
Better to have a devil in my pocket than a monster back in the truck.
There is a certain amount of risk management on all of our parts. If I am going downtown after dark, I do not carry a .380. It's a .45 or a high capacity 9mm. Am I going to need that much firepower, statistics say no. However, when there is a numerous amount obvious extraneous variables that could mean a dangerous situation, why chance it. That said, I simply don't have the desire (or the kind of career that allows it) to walk around with a concealed full size gun.
Better to have a devil in my pocket than a monster back in the truck.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
There is no one caliber/pistol/revolver for any situation you might encounter, and there aren't any guarantees. It's not about absolutes, anyway. It's about beating the odds and stacking the deck in your favor as much as possible.
The question is:
"What situation are you...as an armed private citizen...most likely to encounter?"
I think most people have the idea that their moment of truth will involve a running gunfight against multiple assailants who are also on the trigger.
It probably won't go down like that.
The most likely situation for any of us on a given day is a personal attack...Mano-y-Mano that may or may not start with conversation and escalates to a grappling defense against a knife or blunt weapon. There may be two, but it will probably be just one. As such, it will be close, fast, and very ugly...and very deadly. Powder burn distance...if not with the gun actually in contact with his body when you finally get to the trigger.
You probably won't have time to take a proper "combat" stance...whatever that means...and you'll probably have to fire with one hand. If you take the time to align your sights, it may well be the last thing that you ever see.
If your attacker is a blade man and he knows his business..the first realization that you're under attack will come when the blade parts your flesh. If he is unarmed, and seasoned...it will come when you see stars. In any event, he or they will have the initiative because you...as a law-abiding citizen and peaceably disposed..will need to wait for him to demonstrate his intentions...and that means that you're behind the curve from the outset. Since your action will essentially be a reaction, it logically follows that your move had better be a good one, or he owns you. You'll have about one second to get to your gun while you backpedal and fend him off with your weak hand and shoot him in time to keep him from disemboweling you or caving your head in with the 4-ounce ball-peen hammer that he dropped out of his sleeve as he made his final approach.
Not a very nice thought...is it?
The question is:
"What situation are you...as an armed private citizen...most likely to encounter?"
I think most people have the idea that their moment of truth will involve a running gunfight against multiple assailants who are also on the trigger.
It probably won't go down like that.
The most likely situation for any of us on a given day is a personal attack...Mano-y-Mano that may or may not start with conversation and escalates to a grappling defense against a knife or blunt weapon. There may be two, but it will probably be just one. As such, it will be close, fast, and very ugly...and very deadly. Powder burn distance...if not with the gun actually in contact with his body when you finally get to the trigger.
You probably won't have time to take a proper "combat" stance...whatever that means...and you'll probably have to fire with one hand. If you take the time to align your sights, it may well be the last thing that you ever see.
If your attacker is a blade man and he knows his business..the first realization that you're under attack will come when the blade parts your flesh. If he is unarmed, and seasoned...it will come when you see stars. In any event, he or they will have the initiative because you...as a law-abiding citizen and peaceably disposed..will need to wait for him to demonstrate his intentions...and that means that you're behind the curve from the outset. Since your action will essentially be a reaction, it logically follows that your move had better be a good one, or he owns you. You'll have about one second to get to your gun while you backpedal and fend him off with your weak hand and shoot him in time to keep him from disemboweling you or caving your head in with the 4-ounce ball-peen hammer that he dropped out of his sleeve as he made his final approach.
Not a very nice thought...is it?
1911Tuner your last paragraph in post #64 sums it up about as well as I think it could be said and explained.
Years ago a very good friend was in a fist fight with a guy(for a very good reason) and the guy stabbed him twice in the side before he actually realized he was really hurt.
Had it not been for a life flight helicopter old Tommy probably would have died and in fact almost did.
As you said it's coming fast.
Years ago a very good friend was in a fist fight with a guy(for a very good reason) and the guy stabbed him twice in the side before he actually realized he was really hurt.
Had it not been for a life flight helicopter old Tommy probably would have died and in fact almost did.
As you said it's coming fast.
Strykervet
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Sounds like a lucky shot. Passes between bones in the hand, enters soft tissue. A hole in the liver can be very lethal.
I had a friend get shot with a .22 in the heart. It was just a .22, but he was just 7' and 250lb+. A marginal calibre can cause a lethal wound if the trajectory is right and it doesn't have to pass through bone.
But let us change a couple things up. Say the guy was crouched a little more or leaning foward. And his hand was tilted say 10degrees. Now the bullet has to pass through the bones in the hand and the lower part of the rib cage. Most likely the bullet will be deflected to some degree somewhere along the way to a new trajectory, but say it doesn't. Even if it can penetrate the hand and the rib cage, and still have energy left to puncture the soft tissue in the abdomen, do you think it will still have the energy left to induce a lethal wound to the liver?
The .380 sure was "better than nothing" as they say. But I'll stick with my 10mm or .40.
Also goes to show you that FMJ works better in marginal calibre weapons. If you don't have the energy to open a JHP, you are better off making the deepest hole you can.
I had a friend get shot with a .22 in the heart. It was just a .22, but he was just 7' and 250lb+. A marginal calibre can cause a lethal wound if the trajectory is right and it doesn't have to pass through bone.
But let us change a couple things up. Say the guy was crouched a little more or leaning foward. And his hand was tilted say 10degrees. Now the bullet has to pass through the bones in the hand and the lower part of the rib cage. Most likely the bullet will be deflected to some degree somewhere along the way to a new trajectory, but say it doesn't. Even if it can penetrate the hand and the rib cage, and still have energy left to puncture the soft tissue in the abdomen, do you think it will still have the energy left to induce a lethal wound to the liver?
The .380 sure was "better than nothing" as they say. But I'll stick with my 10mm or .40.
Also goes to show you that FMJ works better in marginal calibre weapons. If you don't have the energy to open a JHP, you are better off making the deepest hole you can.
I love 380s for some reason. They are usually light, small, and now that there is ammo to shoot - fun. I mention this a lot, but it bears repeating. If you get good +P ammo like Buffalo Bore you are, in my opinion, good to go with a 380 Kahr or similar. (yes - there is no standard for 380 +P). All my 380s are like totally different animals when shooting Buffalo Bore. The stuff hits like a ball peen hammer.
I shot my Makarov wednesday, several boxes of ammo. I would trust my life to that round as well. It has about as much energy as a 38 special and makes a bigger hole than standard 9mm luger. Ammo is cheap and plentiful and the pistol is a superbly crafted, reliable instrument of mayhem. Great for shooting beer cans and water bottles too.
I shot my Makarov wednesday, several boxes of ammo. I would trust my life to that round as well. It has about as much energy as a 38 special and makes a bigger hole than standard 9mm luger. Ammo is cheap and plentiful and the pistol is a superbly crafted, reliable instrument of mayhem. Great for shooting beer cans and water bottles too.
Shienhausser
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"Unless there is a world invasion of alien gel blocks"
OK you are taking me back to my 2nd Edition D&D days. Roll 1d4 for damage against Gelatinous Cube.
"I shot my Makarov Wednesday, several boxes of ammo. I would trust my life to that round as well. It has about as much energy as a 38 special and makes a bigger hole than standard 9mm luger. Ammo is cheap and plentiful and the pistol is a superbly crafted, reliable instrument of mayhem. Great for shooting beer cans and water bottles too."
I am in LOVE with all three of my Makarovs. I would love to suppress that puppy in the future, problem is finding a threaded barrel.
OK you are taking me back to my 2nd Edition D&D days. Roll 1d4 for damage against Gelatinous Cube.
"I shot my Makarov Wednesday, several boxes of ammo. I would trust my life to that round as well. It has about as much energy as a 38 special and makes a bigger hole than standard 9mm luger. Ammo is cheap and plentiful and the pistol is a superbly crafted, reliable instrument of mayhem. Great for shooting beer cans and water bottles too."
I am in LOVE with all three of my Makarovs. I would love to suppress that puppy in the future, problem is finding a threaded barrel.
snooperman
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A Big plus One for what 1911TUNER and HEELER said above
That represents my sentiments exactly. The confrontations happen very quickly and unexpectedly,and that trying to predict what one will do, such as aim for the chest is remote, to say the least. Ed Lovette in his book states that after interviewing hundreds of victims . His book is a documentation of real-life encounters and how these encounters take place. 1911 Tuner and Heeler both expressed his ideas correctly in my opinion.
That represents my sentiments exactly. The confrontations happen very quickly and unexpectedly,and that trying to predict what one will do, such as aim for the chest is remote, to say the least. Ed Lovette in his book states that after interviewing hundreds of victims . His book is a documentation of real-life encounters and how these encounters take place. 1911 Tuner and Heeler both expressed his ideas correctly in my opinion.
If you want to see what a knife can do in the right hands, watch "Gangs of New York". The way a good knife fighter can take you down is unbelievable. They are more likelly to kill you by cutting an artery in less time than you can draw your pistol "close up" that's why many of us know to create distance when you think something is about to happen. A sharp well placed knife, as 1911 mentioned is not even felt untill it's too late. Many of our servicemen learned this when dealing with knife fighters in foreign countries. That 21 foot rule is real. My good friend had to put down a 300 plus pound woman who charged him during a domestic dispute in Harlem back in the 80's. He was found fully justified good shoot, but the stigma that he went through was hard. If he had not backed up through the incident he would have had a butcher knife in his chest. Even for a young alert cop, it's a nightmare to decide that you have to empty your gun into some woman in an apartment, just to stay alive. She was found to be very high, but getting your sites on a shot while kids are running through the house and other people are there is not what as easy as it sounded, rapid fire to the upper torso finally took it's toll. That's why I have said thats one drill I always do before leaving the range , is to put a target out 10 yrds or less, and just hit return. I pretend that that is a person closing on me. Try it if your rage permits it, it's one of the few drills you can usuually do without getting yelled at for in todays ultra safe ranges. I also shoot from concealment using the booth as a "fake wall", and shoot with either hand just so it won't be foreign if you happen to catch a round in your shooting arm or shoulder. I can't draw from a holster in most ranges, so practice that at home, "empty gun", but all this stuff comes with carrying. It's never how you imagined it was going to happen. Not everyone has the cash to spend on a Gunsite training course, nor do you have to.It's all practice, and seeing how most short distance gunfights go down.
amazon shooter
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At Last
At last, Mr. 1911 Tuner, has connected the dots about the reality of a violent confrontation a civilian might encounter. Please make his comments a "sticky".
At last, Mr. 1911 Tuner, has connected the dots about the reality of a violent confrontation a civilian might encounter. Please make his comments a "sticky".
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
After growin' up in the wrong side of the tracks, and runnin' with a rough crowd...I connected those dots a good many years ago. Got the scars to prove it.
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