Swabbing between shots

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ChefJeff1

ChefJeff1

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Hi, I just got my first muzzleloader. It's a cva "mountain rifle". 50 cal, 32" barrel and the only powder I could find locally was triple 7. I shot it a few times yesterday and it is a blast!

After the first shot, loading it was incredibly difficult. I'm using .490 ball and .015 patches lubed with Thompson center T17 lube.
My question is.....when swabbing the bore between shots, should I use a dry patch, oiled patch, or patch with solvent?
 
I rarely shoot more than 20 shots with any of my BP guns as I usually take 3 or 4 with me to the range since I figure that it is more efficient to clean several at a time than a single and I rarely swab between shots. I have noticed that my smoothbore Brown Bess will develop a tight spot forward of the chamber after 4 or 5 rounds so I use the 5/8" wooden dowel rod that I use for a ram rod to load it as a scraper. Just pump it up and down the last foot of the barrel closest to the chamber while swiveling it around and the problem goes away for another 4 or 5 shots. It is quick and does not require any patches, water, or magic cleaning solution. I use Bore Butter saturated patches for all my muzzle stuffers and have very few fouling problems.....
 
Some guys swab between shots and some don't. You will hear both sides of this issue. I have personally shot 50+ shots through one on numerous occasions, without swabbing. I figure if a guy is having problems loading after firing, he isn't using a wet enough patch. I normally use a windex/murphy's oil soap mix and wet the patch pretty good, and the wet patch just picks up the fouling and shoves it back down the bore.
 
I am not familiar with T17, never used it. Googled it and it looks like a cleaning solution rather than a lubricant.

Now maybe it doubles as a lube ok, and hopefully if that's the case more knowledgable folks than I will post. In the meantime, I suggest you save the T17 for cleaning the bore after your trip to the range, and lube your bore and patches with something else.

I have had good success using TC Bore Butter or plain old PAM cooking spray on my patched balls. If I am trying to shoot as small a group as possible, I will run a patch coated with either of these lubes down the bore after the first shot, then one or two dry patches to make sure there is not so much lube remaining in there to moisten the next powder charge. Then throw the powder charge, seat the ball with another patch lubed with Bore Butter or PAM and fire the next shot.

You should be able to seat quite a few balls without a hassle long as the patch is well lubed with a true lube rather than a cleaner. I think I remember seeing an old advertisement that Thompson Center fired 1000 shots out of a muzzleloader without cleaning between shots, just using Bore Butter on the patches.

777 cleans up fine with plain water, so you might even try that instead of T17.
 
If I were to swab, I'd use Moose Milk. The formula went something like (and someone correct me):

1/3 hyrdogen peroxide
1/3 rubbing alcohol
1/3 Murphy's Soap
 
Damp (not sopping) spit patch.
Down & up...Down & up...
ReLoad.
:D


BTW: Use damp/spit on your 0.015" shooting patch as well.
Best shooting lube there is.
;)
 
J-bar, this is what I'm using. I'll get bore butter next time I'm in the city. Maybe I just need more lube.

Pam...sounds interesting.

By spit, you mean wet the patch in your mouth and use it?
 

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If I were to swab, I'd use Moose Milk. The formula went something like (and someone correct me):

1/3 hyrdogen peroxide
1/3 rubbing alcohol
1/3 Murphy's Soap
Click to expand...

That's a good cleaning solution but it's not Moose Milk. MM is an emulsion of water soluble machinist's oil and water. Proportions can vary. You can make a close analogue with Ballistol and water.
 
Triple 7 is 'famous' for leaving a crud ring with some combos especially in inlines with regular or magnum 209 primers. Using your rifle with percussion caps may not result in the crud ring but I'm not sure. I've never used the stuff myself after listening to my brother's horror stories.

Try some thinner patches like .012" if swabbing doesn't work for you. I use plain old corn oil or mink oil for a patch lube with black powder in my PRB loads.
 
Thanks for all the help.
I measured my patches and they are .020...I ordered some new ones. I guess I assumed they were .015, the cva pack wasn't marked.
Back to the drawing board on load development with the right stuff on this one:)
 
Yeah, .20" patches would make it difficult. :) Some competition shooters use larger than normal balls and patch combos that require using a mallet to seat the ball.
I use a thick patch moistened by mouth and get good results at 75 yards.
 
I measured my patches and they are .020...I ordered some new ones.
I guess I assumed they were 0.015" ....
Click to expand...
Never buy store-bought patches again. Take your calipers, go to your local fabric store,
and ask for their 100% cotton pillow ticking (close weave/striped fabric).

Look at/measure the thickness of any of several bolts of cloth that they'll have and buy
a square yard ($7). Once home, cut it into strips about 5 colored-stripes wide and take
it to the range with you. (The old guys put it in an old Altoids tins/into their pocket)

When loading, moisten one end in your mouth, lay it over the muzzle, smack a ball flush
with the short-starter and cut the patch flush with your knife. Ram home (hopefully
having already poured the powder in) ;) :D

See HERE for some other tidbits.
 
i swab well between shots, if nothing more than to simulate a clean bore that i will have when hunting. i want my sites to shoot poa with a clean bore as i do not hunt with a dirty bore.

personally i use windex or some kind of glass cleaner to swab with.lightly spray the patch and swab away.moose milk or spit prob works fine too. then a patch greased with bore butter under the next ball.
 
#18
ridgerunner1965
Member


Join Date: December 11, 2010
Posts: 508
i swab well between shots, if nothing more than to simulate a clean bore that i will have when hunting. i want my sites to shoot poa with a clean bore as i do not hunt with a dirty bore.

personally i use windex or some kind of glass cleaner to swab with.lightly spray the patch and swab away.moose milk or spit prob works fine too. then a patch greased with bore butter under the next ball.


i do the same swab with a wet patch then a dry
 
A patch on a ball that is wet enough to clean fouling, is also wet enough to foul the charge. The result is that the power from shot to shot will vary by Howver much the charge was dampened.
As jcwit said, if you shoot in matched, and expect to place, you will most likely swab between shots.
All that being said, some barrel 's rifling design is more prone to fouling problems than other designs. If it means a difference of 2 points over 40 shots, most shooters would not know. But a match shooter does.
I shot competition for 20 years. Always wet patch followed by two dry patches. Kept the cleanliness of the barrel consistent from shot to shot.
 
I have to differ.

A spit damp patch will clean out 95%+ of the fouling in two strokes.
A similarly spit damp patch on the ball will not affect the powder ignition train to any extent at all.
(Remember, the powder burns starting at the furthest point from the ball)

.
 
Well, it turns out that my patches were actuall .020. I tried some .010 and they were much better for loading and shot better too, I still want to try some .015. I also determined that my rifle likes a fouled barrel. I shot about a softball sized group at 80 yards which I feel is fine for hunting. I'm using 90g of triple 7.
 
Over the past while I've found that the patch fit counts for as much towards accuracy as any other factor found in shooting PRB's. The setups that have been giving me some of my best consistency, and thus better accuracy, are where there is only a moderate drag during ramming the ball and patch home. Like about a 10 to 15lb push on the ram rod if I had to guess at a measurement. Hmmmmm.... when I go out for a basic range session instead of a trail walk shoot I think I'll take along my direct pull fishing scale next time and get a proper measurement.

With the style of shooting I'm doing with my BP guns we simply do not have time to even consider swabbing the bore. The typical club event is a trail walk along the base of the hill which is our backstop and targets are put out on the hill side at random places and ranges. We walk in groups of 4 to 5 and it's pretty much shoot, load, gab for about 45 seconds then shoot again, etc. So everyone uses a mixture on their patches that gives a combination of cleaning and lubrication to keep the fouling soft and provide consistently moderate ramming force. This method gives a slight increase in ramming force needed during the first shot or two from a clean bore. But from that point on it should stay constant with the right amount of patch "lube". The mixtures used vary from plain old spit as detailed above to bore butter, Ballistol and water moose milk, exotic mixtures of Murphy's oil soap and peroxide and on and on. The key though is that you should not ever require more than what the patch will easily hold soaked into the material and that the ramming forces should not build up to become overly hard to set the ball or to where it forms tight spots in the bore. If you can't get the lube to do that then try something else.

I can't help you with the Triple 7 since I've never used it. It's good ol' proper Black stuff for me as I'm lucky enough to have a supplier locally. Beside that I mostly shoot flintlocks which pretty much need the easier ignition of the proper black stuff.

On the other hand if I were doing slower paced fixed position target shooting I think I'd be swabbing for every shot to get proper consistency.

The proper solvent for such swabbing is going to require some form of water. It may be "wet" alcohol or it may be Moose Milk or it may be something else. I would think that the goal would be to get a consistent bore surface with a well dampened but not dripping wet patch so that it leaves very little moisture behind. You'll have to play with the T7 with different things to find what works for that product's fouling.
 
ChefJeff1 said:
Hi, I just got my first muzzleloader. It's a cva "mountain rifle". 50 cal, 32" barrel and the only powder I could find locally was triple 7. I shot it a few times yesterday and it is a blast!

After the first shot, loading it was incredibly difficult. I'm using .490 ball and .015 patches lubed with Thompson center T17 lube.
My question is.....when swabbing the bore between shots, should I use a dry patch, oiled patch, or patch with solvent?
Click to expand...
You're an excellent candidate for "The System" by Dutch Schoultz. Best $20 you'll ever spend, guaranteed.

Get with Dutch, then start making your own balls, lubricants and buy your patch material as previously advised.

Some guys are happy to just hit the paper. Others like them all in the black. Those who pay attention to the details like one hole groups in the X-Ring. You're MR is certainly capable of doing it, the task for you is to find out which combination works best.
 
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