swapping rifle stocks-bedding?

[Axis II]

I am planning on purchasing a boyds classic stock for my savage axis heavy barrel. right now with the cheapo stock the gun will send 5 shots through the same hole consistently. I was a little worried about ordering the boyds and upon doing research I was told to get the metal pillar kit. Upon looking this up it shows metal hollow rods where the action screws go through. My questions are below.

do I need these little pillars to keep the accuracy of the rifle? what do they do anyways?
should I invest in or attempt to barrow a torque screw driver to tighten action screws or hand tight is fine?
is it possible I drop $190 on this stock and it makes accuracy go down? I'm hoping it makes it better for longer ranges.

 

[LoonWulf]

Pillars provide a solid contact point between your reciever and action screws. Since they are hard to compress they help keep torque consistent.

Personally ive never seen the need for them, or a torque wrench for tightening my action screws. But thats just me.

Properly bedded (pillars or epoxy....or both) into its new stock, you should not see a deterioration of the rifles current accuracy. You most likely wont see a marked improvement considering how accurate your rifle is already, but thats possible also.

 

[22250Rem]

What Loon Wulf said.............. Plus; it sounds like the gun's pretty darn accurate as-is. So before swapping stocks I would check to see if the barrel is free floating or not. If it's free floating then make sure it is in the new stock, too. Some rifles shoot better free floated, some do better with a pressure point in the forend touching the barrel. Whatever your case may be, if it shoots great I'd try to have the new stock replicate your current stock, bedding wise. Good luck with it; I'm sure that Boyd's stock will be a great improvement over some of those el-cheapo factory stocks. It sure is nice when they look AND shoot good.

 

[30Cal]

Should be a good stock. And it's going to need to be bedded.

 

[jmr40]

Over time the stock material will compress. The pillars prevent that from happening no matter how tight you get the screws. I like pillars and have never had to fool with traditional bedding when using them. They are cheap and not hard to install.

But if it ain't broke, why are you trying to fix it. With a rifle that accurate I'd not touch it. I've gone with aftermarket stocks on over a dozen rifles. I've never seen one improve the accuracy and it may well be worse. Improving accuracy wasn't my goal. I've replaced a lot of wood stocks with cheap synthetic stocks because they are more weather resistant, lighter, and while not any more accurate, they shoot more consistently. I've ponied up the cash for a few McMillans because they look and feel better. Not because they were any more accurate than the cheap synthetics.

 

[edwardware]

I can't speak to pillars, but I'm very happy with my 4 Accra-gel bedded stocks, and my 1 Boyds Pro Varmint.

If you're not set on a fancy plastic torque driver, you can pick up an old Sturtevant inch-pound beam wrench on ebay for ~$20, and it'll be more durable than a click wrench.

 

[Axis II]

Today I shot 5 shots covered by a quarter but I'm a little shakey for some reason. The plastic savage stock is flimsy and won't allow a bipod and bags must be almost under mag well to keep it free floated.

 

[ford8nr]

Today I shot 5 shots covered by a quarter but I'm a little shakey for some reason. The plastic savage stock is flimsy and won't allow a bipod and bags must be almost under mag well to keep it free floated.

5 shots under a quarter is far from a 1 hole group, probably closer to a 1" group. Still great for a factory Axis !

The wooden Boyd's stock will get rid of the stock flex of the factory plastic though.

 

[Axis II]

5 shots under a quarter is far from a 1 hole group, probably closer to a 1" group. Still great for a factory Axis !

The wooden Boyd's stock will get rid of the stock flex of the factory plastic though.

It usually will do 5 one hole but the bags must be in the right spot cause if on the forend they open up a bit. it usually will touch holes but again its 5-8 round messing with the bags finding the spot the stock isn't flexing at. I also noticed the grip on the buttstock flexes too.

 

[Bart B.]

It usually will do 5 one hole but the bags must be in the right spot cause if on the forend they open up a bit.

Usually caused by not enough clearance between fore end and barrel.

More often than not, people don't realize how much the stock fore end bends up from down pressure on the shouldered rifle as it rests on something. One can measure it fairly easy. Stocks with bedding pads at the fore end tip are notorious for this problem.

Totally free float the barrel with at least 1/16" clearance.

Sometimes caused by uneven down force on the fore end that causes different amount of vertical barrel whip while the bullet goes through it. Where it points at bullet exit determines where it strikes on paper.

 

[Axis II]

Usually caused by not enough clearance between fore end and barrel.

More often than not, people don't realize how much the stock fore end bends up from down pressure on the shouldered rifle as it rests on something. One can measure it fairly easy. Stocks with bedding pads at the fore end tip are notorious for this problem.

Totally free float the barrel with at least 1/16" clearance.

Sometimes caused by uneven down force on the fore end that causes different amount of vertical barrel whip while the bullet goes through it. Where it points at bullet exit determines where it strikes on paper.

Its pretty off i noticed to get the one hole groups i use my Caldwell front and rear bag and the front bag must be almost under the mag well or front action screw and i have to push down on the grip almost bending it down and it will shoot great. last night the bench i was on was a little off. half had a rubber mat nailed to it and the other half with the rear bag did not have the rubber mat.it felt a little off when sitting there and i couldn't get the bags just right for anything. I did have 2 groups i was able to squeeze 5 holes all touching but the other groups of know good loads were quarter or larger.

If im on the bags and the scope parallel lines are aligned with the bottom of the paper the stock has so much flex if i push down the line will then move to the top of the paper.

 

[Varminterror]

Lots of options to stiffen that stock. I like to take a piece of aluminum or steel angle stock, route a V channel down the middle of the stock, and bed the angle stock into the forend. This saves on weight compared to completely filling the forend with bedding compound.

If you do get a Boyd's or other laminate stock, I prefer to "block and bed" together, as they both serve different purposes. I've used different methods over the years, but the most reliable method which yields the best results is to block and bed, with no contact between the pillars and the action, which is the method provided to me by multiple competitive precision gun builders. I use shims between the action and the pillars when installing the pillars and when bedding, such that when the shims are removed, and the epoxy has shrank, the pillars do not present pressure points against the action.

Here are the aspects of my block & bed jobs which I consider important:

1) Pillars don't actually touch the action. Shims are used during the bedding process, then removed after to ensure clearance after the epoxy shrinks.

2) Action support is provided 100% by the bedding, not by the pillars. The pillars are only used to prevent shift in action screw tension

3) Action screws are centered in the pillars to prevent any lateral contact. Tape on the action screws or centering stockmakers screws are used to ensure the action screws are centered in the pillars when installed

4) The bottom metal is also bedded to ensure consistent contact - the pillar is sub-surface of the inlet, so the bottom metal sits on bedding, not the pillar, just like the action at the other end

5) I block all stock types, not just woods, as synthetics and fiberglass can crush over time, just as wood can compress. Wood is, of course, sensitive to heat and humidity, but all of these materials can be deformed, so all of them get blocking - with the obvious exception of aluminum chassis'.

6) Barrel free float should be sufficient, in excess of 1/16". Many folks use the "dollar bill trick," however, this does NOT signify sufficient clearance - sufficient clearance is more on the order of FIFTEEN TO TWENTY BILLS THICK.

7) Optics mounts deserve loving too - bedding your optic bases will ensure they don't shift over time, and will decrease your likelihood of coming loose. It's a good idea to double down and do this job while you're in a bedding mood.

I confirm all of my bedding jobs with a dial indicator. Everyone knows how to bed an action (or at least thinks they do), but most folks consider the groups on the page to be the only way to measure the results. The principle is to eliminate movement potential between the action and stock - this is easily measured with a mag base dial indicator. Better is better, and any bedding is better than no bedding, but PERFECT is better than better. If the dial indicator shows movement as the action screws are relaxed, the bedding job isn't sufficiently holding the stock in the action.

 

[ford8nr]

I feel your pain on bag placement. When I first bought my Axis I could get a 3" POI shift just by moving the bags. I did a thread on "bought an Axis for a project". I stiffened my stock with 2 aluminum arrow shafts epoxied into the webs of the forearm. I also cleaned up the trigger, installed a spring set and stop screw. This lowered trigger pull to 2-1/2# and removed creep. To balance the stock for offhand I placed a short piece of pipe filled with lead in the butt stock. I think it took about 5oz to balance then injected expanding foam. The removable section of trigger guard got epoxied to the stock to stiffen the hand grip area. As the gun sits today it's a consistant sub 3/4 for 5 shots off a set of bags at 100yds

 

[Bart B.]

Pillars don't actually touch the action.

Action screws are centered in the pillars to prevent any lateral contact.

Then why put pillars in?

 

[Varminterror]

Then why put pillars in?

To prevent a change in screw tension as the stock expands or contracts with environmental changes. The bedding does one job, the pillars do another. Bedding supports the action, pillars ensure constant, unchanging dimension between the head of the screw and the action.

In order, the action screw head presses against the bottom metal, the bottom metal against its bedding, its bedding against the pillar, the pillar against the action bedding, and the action bedding against the action.

I suspected several years ago conventional pillar blocking and bedding would leave the pillars slightly proud as the epoxy shrank, creating pressure points against the action, or eliminating contact between the bedding and the action, either way, a problem. So I went to master gun builders with my questions.

Boyd Allen shared with me the technique I described above, which he picked up from George Kelby when he was in the same position I was in, but obviously many years prior. Kelby noted, back when action bedding was first invented, the most accurate rifles had a bit of epoxy between the top of the pillar and the action, so there was no true metal to metal contact. In testing this out, he worked out the method I described above, and when Boyd replicated it he found the same result - the best bedding performance was achieved when the pillars were not making direct contact. When I tested it out for myself, I found the same - it was much easier to reliably produce a movement free bedding job, which remained movement free over many firings by eliminating metal-to-metal contact. The only bedding method I've used which was more reliable is gluing the action into the stock, permanently fixing the two (in other words, not using any release agent on the action during the bedding process).

The end result is independent functions - the bedding supports the action, the pillars ensure consistent action screw tension.

 

[LoonWulf]

The how to of properly fitting the pillars so they didnt cause wierd pressure points was one of the reasons i never got into trying the. Only having them contact the actions bedding seems like a good way to do that.
How thick is the bedding between the pilar and the action?

 

[Varminterror]

There are multiple ways to do that - bed the action on top of the pillar, or use a removable shim to float the action above the pillar. I use the latter method, placing a 10thou shim on top of the pillars when I set the bedding, which then leaves the pillars exposed once the shims are removed. In my mind, I prefer this method as opposed to a thicker layer of bedding on top of the pillar, as it allows me a much easier bedding process, since it gives me positive dead stop for action position in the stock, and it doesn't run the risk of chipping/cracking out above the pillar - if it's not there, it can't break.

For tubular actions, I use a squared pillar, and let the bedding fill on top of the side portions of the pillars.

 

[Axis II]

There are multiple ways to do that - bed the action on top of the pillar, or use a removable shim to float the action above the pillar. I use the latter method, placing a 10thou shim on top of the pillars when I set the bedding, which then leaves the pillars exposed once the shims are removed. In my mind, I prefer this method as opposed to a thicker layer of bedding on top of the pillar, as it allows me a much easier bedding process, since it gives me positive dead stop for action position in the stock, and it doesn't run the risk of chipping/cracking out above the pillar - if it's not there, it can't break.

For tubular actions, I use a squared pillar, and let the bedding fill on top of the side portions of the pillars.

so buying the little kit with pillars and the metal mag latch would be a waste of money? I don't plan on bedding it was just going to use pillars.

 

[Varminterror]

If you install pillars, you're going to have the epoxy anyway. Go ahead and bed it.

Out of about 70 bolt guns currently in my safes which aren't in aluminum chassis', I've either blocked and bedded them, or had them done.

 

[Newtosavage]

But if it ain't broke, why are you trying to fix it. With a rifle that accurate I'd not touch it.

+1

I have gotten extraordinary accuracy from regular 'ol Savage rifles and tupperware stocks - to the point I just don't see the need for Accustocks or aftermarket wood stocks or pillars or bedding. How those rifles can shoot so well from a flimsy plastic stock is beyond me, but they do. And they are incredibly light. So all I do is paint them with a textured paint to give me some grip when I'm hunting. Many folks at the range have asked me "what kind of stock is that?" after I painted them. They look like $400 custom stocks, and frankly they shoot like one too.

 

[Axis II]

+1

I have gotten extraordinary accuracy from regular 'ol Savage rifles and tupperware stocks - to the point I just don't see the need for Accustocks or aftermarket wood stocks or pillars or bedding. How those rifles can shoot so well from a flimsy plastic stock is beyond me, but they do. And they are incredibly light. So all I do is paint them with a textured paint to give me some grip when I'm hunting. Many folks at the range have asked me "what kind of stock is that?" after I painted them. They look like $400 custom stocks, and frankly they shoot like one too.

I agree 100% with you on shooting great but its too flimsy for a bipod and balance is a little off with the heavy barrel and plastic stock and mine has a lot of grip flex. I figured the boyds would eliminate all these issues. I could bed the plastic forearm but what about the hand grip.

 

[Newtosavage]

I use a bipod on my tupperware stocks that are nowhere near as stiff as that one and somehow I get away with it. Are you shooting with a hand on the stock/scope? I fold one arm under the gun and only touch the gun with the other hand.

 

[LoonWulf]

Has savage stopped using pillars in their stocks? They used to, infact i have a spare 4.4 thats pillared.

 

[Bart B.]

As receivers, wood stocks and steel screws change dimension with temperature, I think the best way to keep receiver pressure against the stock is to use a torque wrench to tighten the screws.

Some rifles have wave washers between stock screw heads and the stock. Those washers mitigate most of the mating pressure variables as receiver and stock change dimension from heat and humidity.

Loosening stock screws between shooting sessions minimizes stock compression between them. Or unlatch trigger guards on M1 and M14/A epoxy bedded service rifles.

All metal tube guns have pretty much eliminated these problems.

 

[Newtosavage]

Has savage stopped using pillars in their stocks? They used to, infact i have a spare 4.4 thats pillared.

They still use pillars. I think that is one reason they can get away with the flimsy tupperware and still have great accuracy.