leadcounsel
member
Yes!!!!
Swat raids galore. You might want to think on the following.
- Thread starter alan
- Start date
- Status
Yes!!!!
Aguila Blanca
Member
Can I buy a clue?Beerslurpy said:
alan
Member
I think that the following point might be worth a thought or two. Readers may, of course, judge for themselves.
Look at the full text version of the CATO piece, written by Radley Balko. If I read correctly and or if memory serves correctly, all this business of SWAT Teams started in CALIFORNIA, the place where so many truly marvelous trends seem to originate, the place often held up as worthy of emulation by /for the rest of the country. Of course, nowadays, what with the ever increasing MILITERILIZATION of police departments, every two bit operation, even the one in One Tit, Nebraska, I mean no offense to Nebraska nor to people there, has it's very own SWAT Team. All those truly wonderful toys, so ,many of which are showered on all and sundry by DHS (Dept. of Homeland Security).
By the way, having once upon a time, many years ago, lived in California, I never took that position, but that's just my opinion.
Look at the full text version of the CATO piece, written by Radley Balko. If I read correctly and or if memory serves correctly, all this business of SWAT Teams started in CALIFORNIA, the place where so many truly marvelous trends seem to originate, the place often held up as worthy of emulation by /for the rest of the country. Of course, nowadays, what with the ever increasing MILITERILIZATION of police departments, every two bit operation, even the one in One Tit, Nebraska, I mean no offense to Nebraska nor to people there, has it's very own SWAT Team. All those truly wonderful toys, so ,many of which are showered on all and sundry by DHS (Dept. of Homeland Security).
By the way, having once upon a time, many years ago, lived in California, I never took that position, but that's just my opinion.
Evil5liter
I remember that case it was here in Fla. Here is the Cato.org synopsis:
Officer Stephen House.
February 15, 1989—FL
In February 1989, police in Titusville, Florida raid the home of 58-year-old Charles DiGristine, a retired painter. As a flashbang grenade detonates near the front door, DiGristine's wife screams, and DiGristine runs to his bedroom to get a handgun.
Officer Stephen House, dressed in dark clothing and a black mask, charges into the bedroom with his gun drawn. DiGristine shoots and kills him.
Police raided on information from an anonymous informant that the house was being used by armed drug dealers. They found only a small amount of marijuana belonging to DiGristine's son.
DiGristine was charged and tried for first-degree murder. A jury acquitted him.
When DiGristine then filed suit against the city for the raid in 1990, the Titusville city manager responded, "It appears from the publicity achieved by filing very close to the anniversary date of this occurrence that it fits with the overall plan of greed and publicity."
Sources:
"Man Innocent of Police Murder During Drug Raid," United Press International, August 17, 1989.
Lynne Bumpus-Hooper, "DiGristine Sues Titusville Over Drug Raid," Orlando Sentinel, February 15, 1990.
I also personnaly know of a SWAT raid that was on the wrong house and another where it was the right house but the Police flashbang caught the residence on fire and damn near burned the house down. And another where the SWAT sniper shot the hostage.
The thing is that no one on the Law Enforcement side is ever held personnally accountable. The line is always that the officer was working on the best info available or feared for their lives. In each case above the victims got tidy cash settlements and if anything the responsible parties got to work midnights for awhile.
It is a tough job.....thats why we need them to do it right every time.
I remember that case it was here in Fla. Here is the Cato.org synopsis:
Officer Stephen House.
February 15, 1989—FL
In February 1989, police in Titusville, Florida raid the home of 58-year-old Charles DiGristine, a retired painter. As a flashbang grenade detonates near the front door, DiGristine's wife screams, and DiGristine runs to his bedroom to get a handgun.
Officer Stephen House, dressed in dark clothing and a black mask, charges into the bedroom with his gun drawn. DiGristine shoots and kills him.
Police raided on information from an anonymous informant that the house was being used by armed drug dealers. They found only a small amount of marijuana belonging to DiGristine's son.
DiGristine was charged and tried for first-degree murder. A jury acquitted him.
When DiGristine then filed suit against the city for the raid in 1990, the Titusville city manager responded, "It appears from the publicity achieved by filing very close to the anniversary date of this occurrence that it fits with the overall plan of greed and publicity."
Sources:
"Man Innocent of Police Murder During Drug Raid," United Press International, August 17, 1989.
Lynne Bumpus-Hooper, "DiGristine Sues Titusville Over Drug Raid," Orlando Sentinel, February 15, 1990.
I also personnaly know of a SWAT raid that was on the wrong house and another where it was the right house but the Police flashbang caught the residence on fire and damn near burned the house down. And another where the SWAT sniper shot the hostage.
The thing is that no one on the Law Enforcement side is ever held personnally accountable. The line is always that the officer was working on the best info available or feared for their lives. In each case above the victims got tidy cash settlements and if anything the responsible parties got to work midnights for awhile.
It is a tough job.....thats why we need them to do it right every time.
rock jock
Member
When I see inflammatory statements like this, its hard to take this guy seriously as any sort of analyst. The truth is that LE doesn't know if the guy behind that door is watching ESPN or holding an illegally modified full-auto AK. To not have body armor, helmets, communication devices, and horrors! rifles and subguns would be foolish.
Furthermore, in case you haven't been paying attention, most cops have very little training on entry procedures. Why risk liability and lives (on both sides) by sending in officers who aren't trained and experienced?
The reality is is that drug dealers' homes are going to continue to get raided. If you want to change this by having drugs legalized, then lobby your congresscritters. Until then, the safest way to arrest this scourge of society is to bash in their (or their mommy's) door at 0700 on a Saturday morning after they have been "socializing" with their homeys all night.
BTW,
No, I wouldn't!!
Low-Sci
Member
Radley Balko actually is the real deal, but he can be a bit dramatic sometimes. He is, however, very much concerned with getting his story straight. He's also one of the people in the blogosphere who picked up on the Cory Maye case big time.
To be honest, I do have a problem with SWAT teams being used for minor drug offenses, largely because I believe that police training is, generally, desperately lacking. Getting the wrong house is inexcusable, no two ways about it. And until the local smokies are trained well enough to read a street address and hit what they're aiming at in a few shots rather than ten to fifteen, I don't trust the goobers with special weapons or tactics. Those are for responsible, well trained professionals who are very well versed in the use of both and the ramifications involved in their use.
Please understand that I'm not LEO-bashing, I'm just very dismayed with the level of training police officers have, and I don't think aggressive tactics and shiny new guns should be a substitute for poor training.
To be honest, I do have a problem with SWAT teams being used for minor drug offenses, largely because I believe that police training is, generally, desperately lacking. Getting the wrong house is inexcusable, no two ways about it. And until the local smokies are trained well enough to read a street address and hit what they're aiming at in a few shots rather than ten to fifteen, I don't trust the goobers with special weapons or tactics. Those are for responsible, well trained professionals who are very well versed in the use of both and the ramifications involved in their use.
Please understand that I'm not LEO-bashing, I'm just very dismayed with the level of training police officers have, and I don't think aggressive tactics and shiny new guns should be a substitute for poor training.
cassandrasdaddy
Member
- Joined
- Jul 1, 2006
- Messages
- 4,206
fairfax va
we had an unarmed optometrist/bookie get shot in the and killed when they used swat to raid his house. gotta give em credit they owned up to screwing up right away. but its safe in fairfax no cop ever been charged for shooting anyone ever. including the md cop who followed the wrong guy across stae lines in plainsclothes and killed him during a confrontation.
we had an unarmed optometrist/bookie get shot in the and killed when they used swat to raid his house. gotta give em credit they owned up to screwing up right away. but its safe in fairfax no cop ever been charged for shooting anyone ever. including the md cop who followed the wrong guy across stae lines in plainsclothes and killed him during a confrontation.
Thin Black Line
Member
+1. And I also recall warrants being issued by the deputy in our county who
was closest to retirement --those were the good old days. People used
just as much drugs and alcohol back then, plenty of firearms in all the
homes, yet the no-knock-surefire-on-the-M4 raids weren't needed all
that often --would have been 3 guys with service revolvers and a shotgun
while wearing standard polyester uniforms, too, back then:
Cop: "Come on, Roy, get out here so we can get this done --you'll miss
lunch at the jail if this goes on any longer."
Roy: "What are they serving?"
Cop: "Hot dogs."
Roy: "Well......ok, I'm coming out." (20 minute "stand-off" ends).
The thing that changes from time to time in our nation's history is profit
from illegal activity (it's meth this time around), # of people whacked out
on the given drug of choice (check out opium's effect in the past), the
level of family breakdown in a community, the level of corruption in the
beaurocratic control structure. When all of these are up, beware.
There were plenty of violent times in our past. And, yes, we now send 13 to
do what 3 use to do. This certainly helps insure that all the LEOs will go
home that night. I can recall large numbers going after the big names like
Bonnie and Clyde and then there was also the volunteer posse in the
wild west. I also recall lynchings, unequal justice, and a complete lack of
enforcement in areas of our nation's past.
Things seemed to go in cycles until we ratchet down a notch and are "calm"
as a society again. The question then becomes how much will we ratchet
down and when? When I see 1/2 a dozen officers jump out of an unmarked
van and grab a minor for a ***cigarette smoking violation***, while child
molesters go uninterrogated in the same county, I have to wonder what the
future has in store, because it looks like to me we're in one of those
crazy times again in history
Deathrider1579
Member
- Joined
- Jan 17, 2006
- Messages
- 198
I am just glad that this thread has less of the "if the kick down my door I am gonna shoot them" bs that I have read on the last few threads of this type.
I think SWAT teams have a place, there are people out there who run gangs with para-military grade tools. And that is just too much for your average cop with a glock (or whatever) to handle by him self.
That being said it seems that there is a lot if irresponsibility in the way the SWAT teams are being used, sort of like using a Nuke to swat a fly.
I think before the SWAT team hits a house with a non-violent warrantee inside they should give the guy / gal the opportunity to give up peaceably, And truly the same with most violent offenders. Truly no-knock warrants are a crime and probably a violation of the Constitution. I know giving that baddies a chance to flush the drugs is not the best thing but its better than making a dynamic entry on unsuspecting Joe six gun and blowing away an innocent.
Just a thought
BTW if they ever do make a dynamic entry on me my plan resides in the 6 close family friends who are various breeds of attorneys
-DR
I think SWAT teams have a place, there are people out there who run gangs with para-military grade tools. And that is just too much for your average cop with a glock (or whatever) to handle by him self.
That being said it seems that there is a lot if irresponsibility in the way the SWAT teams are being used, sort of like using a Nuke to swat a fly.
I think before the SWAT team hits a house with a non-violent warrantee inside they should give the guy / gal the opportunity to give up peaceably, And truly the same with most violent offenders. Truly no-knock warrants are a crime and probably a violation of the Constitution. I know giving that baddies a chance to flush the drugs is not the best thing but its better than making a dynamic entry on unsuspecting Joe six gun and blowing away an innocent.
Just a thought
BTW if they ever do make a dynamic entry on me my plan resides in the 6 close family friends who are various breeds of attorneys
-DR
Thin Black Line
Member
It seems like a lot of the "real-life" SWAT shows have raids where they
pick up a guy with one rock a .25 pocket pistol. This is defenitely not
the case in the South Africa/Brazil shows where they run into gangs with AKs
who shoot back. We could argue that the US has nipped that kind of
thing in the bud (lessons learned from the original gangster days --the
Roaring 20s and 30s followed by the drug culture in the 70s).
If SWAT is misused in a particular location, one need look no further than
the following ***elected*** officials: County Sheriff, Prosecutor/DA, and
Judge. If there's no complaints to these elected officials who control the
use of SWAT and the execution of warrants, then they feel they have a
public mandate to continue using them in this manner.
And, yes, I know --family and neighborhood makes a difference. However,
it's still the responsibility of citizens to address this even if they are not
directly affected. This was why gun control has gained a certain amount
of traction from time to time: the suburbanites/country club people have
a shooting, robbery, car-jacking in or near *their* neighborhood and the
"protect us!" cry rings directly to the right people (late 80s and early 90s).
A few years later, they realize the gun laws restrict *them* as well and they
complain the same laws are now too oppressive. The balance control gets
turned back the other direction.
The day SWAT executes one too many oops! warrants in the wrong ZIP
codes will be when that gets turned back, too.
utahminirevolver
Member
- Joined
- Oct 4, 2003
- Messages
- 182
Good posts, Thin Black Line.
Malone LaVeigh
Member
Don't worry, Steve. You have a bright future in the IDF.
/*To not have body armor, helmets, communication devices, and horrors! rifles and subguns would be foolish.*/
I don't have a problem with these, but I do have a BIG problem with SWAT teams wearing ski masks or anything to hide their identities. No face equals no positive I.D. equals no accountability, equals no rules.
Jeff Cooper once said anyone who appears in public with a gun and wearing a mask should risk being shot on sight, and I agree with that statement. What's a guy going to do that he needs to hide his identity from any prospective witnesses, whether it is a bankrobber, Hezbollah, or a SWAT team member?
I don't have a problem with these, but I do have a BIG problem with SWAT teams wearing ski masks or anything to hide their identities. No face equals no positive I.D. equals no accountability, equals no rules.
Jeff Cooper once said anyone who appears in public with a gun and wearing a mask should risk being shot on sight, and I agree with that statement. What's a guy going to do that he needs to hide his identity from any prospective witnesses, whether it is a bankrobber, Hezbollah, or a SWAT team member?
Even worse, consider what happens when they do evil things on purpose like this:
http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=5439
or this:
http://www.theagitator.com/archives/026818.php
(Note that I've included a right-wing source and a left-wing source).
http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=5439
or this:
http://www.theagitator.com/archives/026818.php
(Note that I've included a right-wing source and a left-wing source).
MTMilitiaman
Member
I am surprised how anyone could support this type of activity in this country. It is sad to think that our Founding Fathers entrusted us with something beautiful, and we turned it into this. It is even worse to think that we have not learned from mistakes we, as a country, have made in the past. This is not this country's first attempt at substance prohibition. The first time was against alcohol. The violence and crime associated with illegal alcohol consumption and distribution was pretty bad then too. Out of that came a wonderful thing known as NFA 1934. We acknowleged that mistake, abolished the 18th Amendment, and now alcohol is no big deal. You can sit on your couch watching football with an 18 pack in a cooler next to you, and not have to worry about being raided and prosecuted, or even shot, for doing so. Crimes associated with alcohol consumption still exist--sexual assault, domestic battery, driving under the influence--but mere possession of the substance is generally not regarded as suffecient cause to bust down one's door like SEAL Team 5 at 2:30 in the morning armed with SMGs. And because of this, the violence one time associated with alcohol has all but completely disappeared.
I too have a big problem with the masks. And a bigger problem with the guns. These people are still civilians and are undeniably elements of the State. Yet they have access to firearms we can only dream of. These are the same people that will someday bust down your door not to search for mind altering substances, but for weapons. In fact, that is already happening in some states. Yet there are people who will defend this behavior.
How is it on this forum that kicking down doors to confiscate arms in New Orleans has people fuming, but anyone who disagrees with no-knock warrents in general is bashing cops? It all sounds like the same old song--freedom must be sacrificed for safety in a civilized society--do it for the children
I too have a big problem with the masks. And a bigger problem with the guns. These people are still civilians and are undeniably elements of the State. Yet they have access to firearms we can only dream of. These are the same people that will someday bust down your door not to search for mind altering substances, but for weapons. In fact, that is already happening in some states. Yet there are people who will defend this behavior.
How is it on this forum that kicking down doors to confiscate arms in New Orleans has people fuming, but anyone who disagrees with no-knock warrents in general is bashing cops? It all sounds like the same old song--freedom must be sacrificed for safety in a civilized society--do it for the children
"we had an unarmed optometrist/bookie get shot in the and killed when they used swat to raid his house. gotta give em credit they owned up to screwing up right away. but its safe in fairfax no cop ever been charged for shooting anyone ever. including the md cop who followed the wrong guy across stae lines in plainsclothes and killed him during a confrontation."
He actually was standing OUTSIDE his house by his car. Some SWAT member approached him with his finger in the trigger guard, stepped in a hole and BOOM.
EVERYONE on this board should be moving their shotguns to the vault and instead putting their AR15s with steel core rounds under the bed. You are much more likely to have to defend your homes and your lives from SWAT (or other government thugs) than from someone not wearing body armor. These sort of violations are the VERY REASON we have second amendment rights. Our guns are not so much for defense from each other as they are for defense from jackbooted thugs with "ATF" emblazoned across their chests.
It's quite illogical that many of us are so eager to shoot to kill when the small time criminals breaks a window to climb in the basement, but at the same time are quite ready to curl up into a ball and surrender when the professional, armed and armored criminals take a sledgehammer to the front door and stick an automatic weapon in our kids' faces.
Call that cop bashing if you will, but anyone who busts through someone's front door and starts shooting any family members that resists is a criminal.
To the people who say that the mistake raids need to continue so we can get the "slime off the streets": Do the innocent people who have their homes "mistakenly" broken into have a right to use force to defend themselves? Or should they just lay down with their hands behind their heads and wait for SWAT to drill them in the back of the head? If innocents do shoot back, does SWAT have the RIGHT to kill them?
You can say "oh, but the police announce themselves." First, that isn't always true, and second, if I have a flashbang thrown through my window at 3am, I am probably going to have blood flowing out of my ears. I'm not going to be listening for "this is the police" when I cant see or hear.
He actually was standing OUTSIDE his house by his car. Some SWAT member approached him with his finger in the trigger guard, stepped in a hole and BOOM.
EVERYONE on this board should be moving their shotguns to the vault and instead putting their AR15s with steel core rounds under the bed. You are much more likely to have to defend your homes and your lives from SWAT (or other government thugs) than from someone not wearing body armor. These sort of violations are the VERY REASON we have second amendment rights. Our guns are not so much for defense from each other as they are for defense from jackbooted thugs with "ATF" emblazoned across their chests.
It's quite illogical that many of us are so eager to shoot to kill when the small time criminals breaks a window to climb in the basement, but at the same time are quite ready to curl up into a ball and surrender when the professional, armed and armored criminals take a sledgehammer to the front door and stick an automatic weapon in our kids' faces.
Call that cop bashing if you will, but anyone who busts through someone's front door and starts shooting any family members that resists is a criminal.
To the people who say that the mistake raids need to continue so we can get the "slime off the streets": Do the innocent people who have their homes "mistakenly" broken into have a right to use force to defend themselves? Or should they just lay down with their hands behind their heads and wait for SWAT to drill them in the back of the head? If innocents do shoot back, does SWAT have the RIGHT to kill them?
You can say "oh, but the police announce themselves." First, that isn't always true, and second, if I have a flashbang thrown through my window at 3am, I am probably going to have blood flowing out of my ears. I'm not going to be listening for "this is the police" when I cant see or hear.
spencerhut
Member
A little revolution now and again is a good thing . . .
Reading accounts of our civil servants killing (or just humiliating) my fellow innocent, citizens makes me ill. I'd like to thank everyone that posted here for throwing this in my face and making me mad, again.
I need it every now and then. I keep wondering when/if the government will go to far and there will be some sort of major (not necessarily violent) shift in our political system back to the way our founding fathers intended. I keep wondering how far it will go before we stand up for our rights and say enough is enough. I can complain a little more than most of you since I live in the PRC and as such am so restricted in what I can buy and do it’s not even funny. And I’m not talking just about guns. Hell you can’t even but a new diesel passenger car in PRC. :banghead: 
You can’t grow certain kinds of grass (lawn not the smoking kind) here. Want a natural gas space heater? Not in California.
Whoops . . . sorry about that. Like I said you all got me going. I’ll shut up now and continue to plan my escape from the PRC. Anyone need an IT Project Manager in Texas?
Reading accounts of our civil servants killing (or just humiliating) my fellow innocent, citizens makes me ill. I'd like to thank everyone that posted here for throwing this in my face and making me mad, again.
I need it every now and then. I keep wondering when/if the government will go to far and there will be some sort of major (not necessarily violent) shift in our political system back to the way our founding fathers intended. I keep wondering how far it will go before we stand up for our rights and say enough is enough. I can complain a little more than most of you since I live in the PRC and as such am so restricted in what I can buy and do it’s not even funny. And I’m not talking just about guns. Hell you can’t even but a new diesel passenger car in PRC. :banghead: You can’t grow certain kinds of grass (lawn not the smoking kind) here. Want a natural gas space heater? Not in California. Whoops . . . sorry about that. Like I said you all got me going. I’ll shut up now and continue to plan my escape from the PRC. Anyone need an IT Project Manager in Texas?
Deathrider1579
Member
- Joined
- Jan 17, 2006
- Messages
- 198
I don't think putting an AR-15 with steel core rounds under your bed is the answer to this problem.
If I was the victim to an Illegal SWAT raid I am sure I would want to shoot them too, but I wont. Why? Because if you go for your gun you are going to die. Sure if you are real good you might get one or two of them and then what? you die, cops do not take kindly to anyone ventilating them.
And really I don't particularly either.
I do not for one second excuse those that execute a raid on the wrong person, but if you whip out your trusty AR-15 with 100rnd Beta mags with AP ammo and start blasting away at the JBT that just busted through your door you are going to leave in a body bag whatever else happens. Not that you would realistically get the chance to react to a raid of that type they are going to be all over you in 1/2 a hart beat.
So if you are really worried about it, find a good lawyer or 6 tell them what your worried about and do what they say.
If 'they' ever hit my house and I am reasonably sure its the cops I am going to just chill with my hands in plain view and let them do what they gotta do.
When they are done, I will have an attorney or 3 file some law suits to the tune of 100 billion in pain and suffering.
If it’s not the cops and they are trying to pull off an "entry" I don't know what I will do and I don't know if there is anything you could do in that situation.
To those LEOs who are reading this, I respect most of you to the utmost. There are jerks wearing the badge just like in any profession but the jerks seem to get the most press when you’re a LEO.
I am sorry but I really don’t care if no knock warrants make your job easer the more important thing is that there is no over kill in law enforcement and that no innocents get hurt.
Just my $.02 I may need change
-DR
If I was the victim to an Illegal SWAT raid I am sure I would want to shoot them too, but I wont. Why? Because if you go for your gun you are going to die. Sure if you are real good you might get one or two of them and then what? you die, cops do not take kindly to anyone ventilating them.
And really I don't particularly either.
I do not for one second excuse those that execute a raid on the wrong person, but if you whip out your trusty AR-15 with 100rnd Beta mags with AP ammo and start blasting away at the JBT that just busted through your door you are going to leave in a body bag whatever else happens. Not that you would realistically get the chance to react to a raid of that type they are going to be all over you in 1/2 a hart beat.
So if you are really worried about it, find a good lawyer or 6 tell them what your worried about and do what they say.
If 'they' ever hit my house and I am reasonably sure its the cops I am going to just chill with my hands in plain view and let them do what they gotta do.
When they are done, I will have an attorney or 3 file some law suits to the tune of 100 billion in pain and suffering.
If it’s not the cops and they are trying to pull off an "entry" I don't know what I will do and I don't know if there is anything you could do in that situation.
To those LEOs who are reading this, I respect most of you to the utmost. There are jerks wearing the badge just like in any profession but the jerks seem to get the most press when you’re a LEO.
I am sorry but I really don’t care if no knock warrants make your job easer the more important thing is that there is no over kill in law enforcement and that no innocents get hurt.
Just my $.02 I may need change
-DR
They DO need to do that.
The local Long's Drugs, Walgreen's, Sav-on, et al. are selling drugs that destroy lives, like Statins, or pocketbooks, like various newfangled painkillers that work no better than Advil or Tylenol, for 10x the price (and sometimes kill people, like Vioxx). Worse yet, the Republican majority voted to use billions of dollars of OUR TAX MONEY to fund these vicious drug dealers.
SWAT raids on these local drug dealers, and the cartels that make these drugs, could help end this scourge on our communities. Might bode poorly for San Diego's economy, though...
mordechaianiliewicz
Member
ArmedBear, I love it.
People often believe the propaganda they are fed hook, line, and sinker. This isn't about safety, it is about power. Power that others have over you.
People often believe the propaganda they are fed hook, line, and sinker. This isn't about safety, it is about power. Power that others have over you.
This isn't about how many guns you have. It's about democratically taking control of the government and electing representatives who will create the sort of police force you want. You can't have enough guns to mess with the SWAT team.
"If I was the victim to an Illegal SWAT raid I am sure I would want to shoot them too, but I wont. Why? Because if you go for your gun you are going to die."
Oh, don't get me wrong, I completely agree. I was just pointing out that if you are the victim of uninvited guests, don't know who they are or what they want and make the decision to start shooting, you are going to want your rounds to count.
And sometimes I think some SWAT teams have already made the decision ahead of time that nobody at the particular address is leaving alive (think Ruby Ridge, Waco).
If a SWAT team came through my door I would try to surrender. But if I had no clue what was going on and I started firing my weapon, I'd want to be hitting flesh. And if I saw them execute one of my roommates down the hall, I would want my options open to me.
I can't believe some people are debating about WHETHER SWAT takes things too far. OF COURSE THEY DO. ALL THE TIME.
I remember the one 80+ year old gentleman who committed some "crime," received a subpoena, didn't go, and eventually it escalated to the point where the police came knocking with a battering ram. It was never decided who fired first, but he popped off a few rounds from a shotgun, to which like 40 officers responded with like 250 rounds at the house. He fired a few more, they fired a few hundred more. And then they started tear gas. They ended up using some ridiculous number, like 80 canisters or something. The guy's family eventually talked him into giving up, and it turned out he didn't even know who he was fighting since they didn't annouce themselves. I could be wrong, but I think he may have died shortly thereafter from the stress. Poor old guy from the self-reliant "leave me alone, I'll leave you alone" generation....he never hurt anyone, but he just couldn't cut it in today's Big Brother nanny state.
Oh, don't get me wrong, I completely agree. I was just pointing out that if you are the victim of uninvited guests, don't know who they are or what they want and make the decision to start shooting, you are going to want your rounds to count.
And sometimes I think some SWAT teams have already made the decision ahead of time that nobody at the particular address is leaving alive (think Ruby Ridge, Waco).
If a SWAT team came through my door I would try to surrender. But if I had no clue what was going on and I started firing my weapon, I'd want to be hitting flesh. And if I saw them execute one of my roommates down the hall, I would want my options open to me.
I can't believe some people are debating about WHETHER SWAT takes things too far. OF COURSE THEY DO. ALL THE TIME.
I remember the one 80+ year old gentleman who committed some "crime," received a subpoena, didn't go, and eventually it escalated to the point where the police came knocking with a battering ram. It was never decided who fired first, but he popped off a few rounds from a shotgun, to which like 40 officers responded with like 250 rounds at the house. He fired a few more, they fired a few hundred more. And then they started tear gas. They ended up using some ridiculous number, like 80 canisters or something. The guy's family eventually talked him into giving up, and it turned out he didn't even know who he was fighting since they didn't annouce themselves. I could be wrong, but I think he may have died shortly thereafter from the stress. Poor old guy from the self-reliant "leave me alone, I'll leave you alone" generation....he never hurt anyone, but he just couldn't cut it in today's Big Brother nanny state.
"This isn't about how many guns you have. It's about democratically taking control of the government and electing representatives who will create the sort of police force you want. You can't have enough guns to mess with the SWAT team."
There are several reasons why we have pretty much outlawed democratic, free and fair elections in this country. So simply "voting in a change" doesn't work. When you live under tyranny, the tyrants don't let themselves lose power.
Your next option, competing with SWAT, may not be a good option, but it may be the only one left.
There are several reasons why we have pretty much outlawed democratic, free and fair elections in this country. So simply "voting in a change" doesn't work. When you live under tyranny, the tyrants don't let themselves lose power.
Your next option, competing with SWAT, may not be a good option, but it may be the only one left.
spencerhut
Member
Illegal drugs cause way to many problems in our society. SWAT raids being just one of then. I say make all drugs legal in some form or another like alchohol and tax them. Then we can all drive on the nice smooth roads paid for by the once illegal drug taxes. Then our LEOs could spend time catching real criminals instead of some looser pot head.
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