WSJ on "no-knocks"

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Nothing better than reading a thread that is rife with people who know nothing about police work trying to reform the system. :sarcastic:

I have an idea, let's get a bunch of carpenters to go in and reform the way credit unions do their accounting, or some doctors to go in and reform the methods used by the DOT to make highways. sigh.
 
No-nocks" are an incredibly bad idea. Most of the police who advocate them have only encountered people who can't fight back. Sooner or later they will go to the wrong residence (both literally and figuratively) and someone who is capable of defending themself will do so effectively and with good cause. And they'll probably go to jail for it, even though the error and wrong doing would be solely on the heads of the intruders.

SWAT (and drug raids in general) to the wrong house must be incredibly common. Back when I was paying more attention (a bit busy right now) to the news, I'd hear about a raid resulting in someone's death once a month of so.

Heck, a little old lady in my Sunday school class got a wrong address visit from Officer Unfriendly looking for druggies.
 
:sarcastic:

I have an idea, let's get a bunch of carpenters to go in and reform the way credit unions do their accounting, or some doctors to go in and reform the methods used by the DOT to make highways. sigh.

Are you saying the "People" should have no say on how they are governed? The king of england would agree with you and he rules all professions.
 
Yes, only police should be able to write the rules and oversee themselves. Police work should be left to the police. Himmler did such a good job reforming the Gestapo, I can see we should just trust the professionals.
 
It's police work, it ain't rocket science.

"Civilians" wrote the Constituion, "civilians" are the judges who interpret it. "Civilian" legislators write the laws police enforce, "civilians" teach the classes police take for their degrees. "Civilian" instructors are typically doing the "train the trainer" courses on tactics and fighting, including SWAT. "Civilians" can take pretty much all those classes or equivalents.

Yes, "civilians" may not know what it is like to stand in a stack outside the door of a suspected crack house, but far too many are gaining personal experience of what it's like to be on the wrong end of that stack when it bursts through the wrong door.

I think we're qualified enough (with a little study) to make intelligent comments on how we want our police to do the jobs we hire them to do. If cops have a problem with civilian oversight and control (you know, like the military has) perhaps they are in the wrong business.
 
Nothing better than reading a thread that is rife with people who know nothing about police work trying to reform the system. :sarcastic:

I have an idea, let's get a bunch of carpenters to go in and reform the way credit unions do their accounting, or some doctors to go in and reform the methods used by the DOT to make highways. sigh.

Oh great one, humble us poor folk with your knowledge:rolleyes:
 
It isnt like police work is some secret profession like the old freemasons. Police record everything they do, trials are public, everything that happens in the criminal justice system is supposed to be exposed for the public to see. The entire process under which this operates is completely standardized and publically available for anyone to learn.

Do you think people would be pissed off about these abuses if they werent so obviously wrong that even a layman could recognize them? Taking someone's property as punishment for a crime they have never been charged with is obviously wrong. Performing military assaults against people merely suspected of committing misdemeanors is obviously wrong. You dont need to spend half an hour explaining police work to someone for them to grasp why such behavior is harmful to society. We arent making unreasonable demands of the police here.

When an officer sizes up a suspect for a crime, the main question going through his head should be "is this the guy that did it?" Not "how much can I seize from this guy and what charge should I make up to justify the shakedown?" This is the sort of behavior one expects from Mexican police.
 
To Protect and Serve

Just reading a bit about Waco at www.armsandthelaw.com. He points out how the Waco coverup got rolling pretty quickly and how the justice lawyers started covering tracks.

Police work, I am sure, can be as complex as plumbing. But nearly anyone can recognize right and wrong.

And believe me, no one here is trying to reform the police system. We have no voice. The lowest level police force recruit has 100X the clout with my legislator than I do. I'm just a peasant.
 
In Ruby Ridge and Waco, overuse of force caused harm which necessitated ass coverings, dishonesty and further unnecessary loss of life and property.

Both of those situations could have been resolved in an entirely peaceful manner before they sent in the ninjas. We know for certain that Ruby Ridge was a friendly fire fatality and many suspect that at least a few of the Waco ATF fatalities were friendly fires as well.

The problem here is the irrational need to "send in the ninjas." We need to cut this crap out before it becomes a "long respected American tradition" and in the future, people dont think to ask where the men in black got the right to kick in our doors with impunity. You guys dont actually think the UN will send blue helmets to take our guns do you? If the troops come from anywhere, it will be the local police precinct. We just have fight against things getting to that point. If we cant win the political fight now, how the hell are we going to win a shooting fight when things are too far gone for anythign else?
 
Militarization is only part of the problem. We need to put severe restrictions on the use of SWAT and no-knocks, but thats just the beginning.

Most LEO's view civil rights as technicalities. They think they just "get in the way" and make their job more difficult.... and therefore they view such things with contempt.

There is only one way to begin to correct that attitude... We need to insist that LEO's are EDUCATED. The way things are now, referring to LEO's as "professionals" is a joke. Its scary how low the education standards are in most states. For example, in Texas, LEO's need only a high school diploma and 12 college credit hours to become commissioned/sworn. Thats ridiculous, as any clown can cruise through 12 hours at a community college.

These folks that have such great power are barely qualified to flip burgers at McDonalds or be a cashier at Walmart.

It is my opinion that as a minimum all LEO's should have a BA or BS from a legit college/university. No associates degrees from community colleges or tech schools, nor degrees from online "universities". Very few state/local agencies have such requirements.

I dont see how setting the bar higher could be a bad thing...
 
I dont see how setting the bar higher could be a bad thing...

You are absolute correct, except that right now today most local LE departments and agencies are unable to meet their recruitment targets. They would need to pay a lot more to get real college graduates. Are taxpayers going to pony up? No.

What's the solution? We should have the same budget, and less cops. How would we achieve that? We need less crimes on the books. We have so many crimes on the books that we need an army of cops to deal with it all, so there's no way we can afford to have an army of college-educated cops.

No disrespect for cops or for non-college-educated people; we need a lot of people at different levels to make the world go round.
 
Optical Serenity:

Nothing better than reading a thread that is rife with people who know nothing about police work trying to reform the system. :sarcastic:

I have an idea, let's get a bunch of carpenters to go in and reform the way credit unions do their accounting, or some doctors to go in and reform the methods used by the DOT to make highways. sigh.

Carpenters might not have the expertise to restructure the accounting system of a credit union but it doesn't take such expertise to recognize one in which its managers pocket the carpenters' deposits, refuse to pay out the carpenters' withdrawals, and turn a deaf ear to the carpenters' complaints. Carpenters presumably know when they're looking at something that isn't square and is out of plumb, and they have a right to trust the financial institutions that are supposed to serve them.

Like you, I wouldn't trust a medical doctor to reform the methods used by the DOT to make highways. But I would trust a doctor--or anyone else--who pointed at a highway that led to the end of a cliff and had no warning sign against driving over it.

Carpenters should protest against credit unions that abuse their trust in an institution that should serve them and doctors should be applauded for warning about failures in highways created by the malfeasance, misfeasance, or nonfeasance of a DOT that disdained its duty to protect the public.

With all due respect, you make a serious mistake by ignoring perhaps the most important point of discussions such as this: Customers for your product are increasingly dissatisfied by its quality. It doesn't take an expert to know that there's something dreadfully wrong when SWAT teams are employed for situations in which the maximum possible legal penalty is less than the potential or actual damage caused by the SWAT teams. No great police expertise is needed to recognize that no knock smashes into the wrong residences deserve more than an "Oops!"

I also don't think that it's out of line for the citizens you are sworn to protect and to serve to complain--loudly and often--when their complaints are met with disdain. They might not know how to do your job properly. But you should.

Reread the point you made and it distills into something like "Only the police know enough to criticize the way the police perform their duties." That would make the police superior to the citizenry employing them. And it's that attitude that probably is responsible for the heat in these discussions.

When customers complain about the quality of a business' products or service, it's unwise for the business' management and employees to mock those customers or try to silence them. There's no profit in generating ill will.
 
I would add that, yes, it is our job as voters to make our wishes known to our legislators.

But it would be nice if we weren't having to fight LE tooth and nail to get it done. LE needs to be self-aware enough to realize the abuses and problems and get out ahead of the problem, not just take every inch granted until they're eventually hung.
 
P.S.:

It is foolhardy to ignore the significance of The Wall Street Journal piece that occasioned this discussion. The Wall Street Journal could not possibly be seen as a bastion of liberal thought. It stands four square for law and order. So when The Wall Street Journal publishes that kind of devastating criticism of a law enforcement practice, there is--or soon will be--little support for it and for the people who attempt to defend it.
 
I doubt it. They will continue to get their free M16's granade launchers and whatever else they can get for free from the feds along with greater allocations of our tax money.

A real self licking lollypop if I ever seen one.
 
Grant 48 wrote
There is only one way to begin to correct that attitude... We need to insist that LEO's are EDUCATED. The way things are now, referring to LEO's as "professionals" is a joke. Its scary how low the education standards are in most states. For example, in Texas, LEO's need only a high school diploma and 12 college credit hours to become commissioned/sworn. Thats ridiculous, as any clown can cruise through 12 hours at a community college.

These folks that have such great power are barely qualified to flip burgers at McDonalds or be a cashier at Walmart.

It is my opinion that as a minimum all LEO's should have a BA or BS from a legit college/university. No associates degrees from community colleges or tech schools, nor degrees from online "universities". Very few state/local agencies have such requirements.

I dont see how setting the bar higher could be a bad thing...

You want better educated cops better be prepared to pay them more than 10 bucks and hour. You really can't expect the best and the brightest to join the police when they barely make enough to scrape by. I have a master's degree yet I only make $25,000 a year, and I am one of the better paid deputies at my department. I agree education levels need to be raised, but to do this, tax payers are going to have to be willing to dip deeper in their pockets.
 
Never said money equals morality. I am just saying if you expect to require cops to be college educated you need to expect to pay more. Not many college grads are willing to work for peanuts.
 
We could probably start paying educated officers more rather than requiring more educated officers.

The funny thing about this issue is that you would be hard pressed to find someone who disagrees completely, but the devil is in the details. How do you get a general referendum on this stuff to make it plain to people? If you kick one police chief out of office, where do you find the replacement that actually believes in reform? I think the first step, IMHO, is to change the law so that cash siezures and questionable/overly forceful searches get thrown out of court more easily. That will at least encourage more restraint. Now the next question is how do we make that happen?
 
A decent respect for other people isn't learned in institutions of higher education. Mom and Dad teach it, starting at an early age and usually by their own example. If it isn't absorbed in childhood it's unlikely to be acquired from strangers appointed to teach it as a classroom subject.

I've known many people who never went to high school but who are among Nature's noblemen. Many of them were of the generation before mine and some are in my generation, soon to pass. I also know a number of highly educated people who do their best work in the dark.

Schools might teach ethics but they can't make ethical people. Law enforcement officers must be at least ethical people who respect other people and have a drive to serve and protect. Every law enforcement officer in my own circle of friends is that kind of person, by the way.
 
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