Thernlund
Member
I fear that under the right circumstances, I may not survive such an encounter. There would be an armed response if someone was crashing through my door at 3am.
-T.
-T.
SWAT wrongfully called to your door...
- Thread starter HK G3
- Start date
- Status
grumpycoconut wrote:
I prefer the terms "gross negligence" and/or "unacceptable incompedency."
How bad does it HAVE to look? Statistics become very irrelevant when you BECOME a statistic. The fact is that it IS happening with a degree of frequency.
EXACTLY what is considered an acceptable number of innocent people harmed or killed at worst and having their privacy and property destroyed at best? The BOR isn't a benchmark where you can hit an acceptable percentage.
If you take the time to ferret out the author's bias in the report you might also find reason to look again at his over all premis.
OK... you've brought up bias. If you bring it up, you bear the responsibility of proving it, illustrating it, or citing it. It is a weak arguement to claim bias with no substance behind it. I could just as easily say that you hold a bias due to your history with LEO occupation.
You say that you don't make excuses for "screw-ups" and "tragedies" so I'll ask you a couple pointed questions without mincing my words.
1. Should an officer become wounded or killed in a "wrong address raid," do you believe that the person living in that dwelling should have ANY charges and/or scrutinity?
2. If the person(s) living in that property becomes wounded or killed in a "wrong address raid," should the "leader" of that raid and the acting officers be charged with pre-meditated Murder with potential sentences up to and including the death penalty?
3. Should ALL damages be repaired at the cost of the department IMMEDIATELY and professionally upon such "wrong address raid?"
4. Should the department be required to issue a public and written acknowledgment of responsibility and appology immediately upon such "wrong address raid?"
5. Should there EVER be a reason to restrain the occupants of said residence for over a few minutes in such "wrong address raid" and if so restrained, should the officers be subject to charges should it be an unreasonable time?
-- John
I prefer the terms "gross negligence" and/or "unacceptable incompedency."
How bad does it HAVE to look? Statistics become very irrelevant when you BECOME a statistic. The fact is that it IS happening with a degree of frequency.
EXACTLY what is considered an acceptable number of innocent people harmed or killed at worst and having their privacy and property destroyed at best? The BOR isn't a benchmark where you can hit an acceptable percentage.
If you take the time to ferret out the author's bias in the report you might also find reason to look again at his over all premis.
OK... you've brought up bias. If you bring it up, you bear the responsibility of proving it, illustrating it, or citing it. It is a weak arguement to claim bias with no substance behind it. I could just as easily say that you hold a bias due to your history with LEO occupation.
You say that you don't make excuses for "screw-ups" and "tragedies" so I'll ask you a couple pointed questions without mincing my words.
1. Should an officer become wounded or killed in a "wrong address raid," do you believe that the person living in that dwelling should have ANY charges and/or scrutinity?
2. If the person(s) living in that property becomes wounded or killed in a "wrong address raid," should the "leader" of that raid and the acting officers be charged with pre-meditated Murder with potential sentences up to and including the death penalty?
3. Should ALL damages be repaired at the cost of the department IMMEDIATELY and professionally upon such "wrong address raid?"
4. Should the department be required to issue a public and written acknowledgment of responsibility and appology immediately upon such "wrong address raid?"
5. Should there EVER be a reason to restrain the occupants of said residence for over a few minutes in such "wrong address raid" and if so restrained, should the officers be subject to charges should it be an unreasonable time?
-- John
Unfortunate situation, one where the police are maliciously sent to your residence.
---
1. Maybe. If a reasonable person should have known it was the police then yes.
2. No. Though other chargees may be appropriate, again using the reasonableness standard.
3. Yes, so long as they were not caused by the occupants action, again applying the reasonableness standard.
4. Yes, if the fault was theirs. No, if not. Both should be accompanied by explanations.
5. Yes, there may be reason to restrain said occupants and yes officers should be subject to charges if it is unreasonable.
---
1. Maybe. If a reasonable person should have known it was the police then yes.
2. No. Though other chargees may be appropriate, again using the reasonableness standard.
3. Yes, so long as they were not caused by the occupants action, again applying the reasonableness standard.
4. Yes, if the fault was theirs. No, if not. Both should be accompanied by explanations.
5. Yes, there may be reason to restrain said occupants and yes officers should be subject to charges if it is unreasonable.
Abuse is abuse, it will only get worse...it only has. On our dime too, despicable.
In my case, in reality, at this moment. Oh ****e, someone broke in, it's the cops...everyone shut the h e dbl hockey sticks up, 2 month old baby, he cries, you feed him.....turn on the hot water for fomula NOW!!!! FASTER SLACKER, NOW ROOKIE, NOW!!!!!!!
no joke Rookie, where's that's bottle!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
In my case, in reality, at this moment. Oh ****e, someone broke in, it's the cops...everyone shut the h e dbl hockey sticks up, 2 month old baby, he cries, you feed him.....turn on the hot water for fomula NOW!!!! FASTER SLACKER, NOW ROOKIE, NOW!!!!!!!
no joke Rookie, where's that's bottle!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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grumpycoconut
Member
JWarren, Point by point it is and happily.
Gross negligence, unacceptable incompetence? You bet, no argument absolute agreement. That's why every agency worth its salt reviews every incident. That's why team members, team leaders, commanders, chiefs and the city's general funds all take it in the shorts (and maybe learn to do it right next time) when ever someone screws up.
Statistics are an evil thing. Among the worst thing they do is show clearly and unequivocally that if you do anything long enough bad things are gonna happen. The universe is an uncaring witch and human beings will make mistakes if given the chance. Will there be great weeping and gnashing of teeth? Yes. Will the pain and anger that results from a screw up ever completely heal? Probably not. If, through no fault of my own, I get smacked on the freeway during tomorrow's commute will I be pissed off? Yes, but I'm still going to drive again. Just because the acceptable failure rate in a SWAT op is zero, doesn't mean that the job shouldn't be done. Unfortunately the only ones available to do the job are fallible humans.
Bias? Heck yeah I've got a bias! I'll tell you what it is. I'm pro cop, pro swat, pro gun, pro civil liberties, pro choice, pro legalization, pro critical thinking. I'm also lazy enough to not have read all of the CATO report and way too lazy to dig through my old issues of NTOA's magazine for the critique written by the guy who did. And yes, my critically thinking mind recognizes that he has a bias too. As for my own personal and deeply insightful criticism of the article I'll start with one word in the title, "militarization". Black uniforms, fast violent tactics and black rifles do not militarization make. Mindset, goals and means make militarization. Police/SWAT aim to keep the peace, save lives and enforce the law. The military aims to kill people and break things. I've yet to hear of a SWAT team that chucks in a few frags and suppressive fire before making entry. Is my bias claim still weak because I don't cite learned experts? Yes, but this is the internet and I claim my right to halfassedness.
Specific Questions.
1. Should an officer become wounded or killed in a "wrong address raid," do you believe that the person living in that dwelling should have ANY charges and/or scrutiny?
Scrutiny-yes. every last bit of the incident needs to be picked apart and examined. Charges-It depends. Did or should the person have known that he was shooting at cops? If yes, charges. If no (and it has happened before), no charges.
2. If the person(s) living in that property becomes wounded or killed in a "wrong address raid," should the "leader" of that raid and the acting officers be charged with pre-meditated Murder with potential sentences up to and including the death penalty?
Check your legal definitions. In CA Murder requires malice and forethought. To support a "murder" charge and officer would have to have decided beforehand and with evil intent to kill. The various variations on Man Slaughter (negligence etc.) have been used, sometimes successfully, against officers who wrongly killed a person. The civil courts have also been known to give lots of money to folks who were on the wrong end of police misconduct.
3. Should ALL damages be repaired at the cost of the department IMMEDIATELY and professionally upon such "wrong address raid?"
If I kick in the wrong door, you better bet my department will eventually pony up some cash. Is it as fast as most folks want? No, but cities will pay out if you push them the right way.
4. Should the department be required to issue a public and written acknowledgment of responsibility and apology immediately upon such "wrong address raid?"
Sure, and the cigarette companies, automakers, Chinese toy makers and McDonalds should apologize and pay for the pain their products cause. Of course we are a nation of laws and lawyers so I don't see it happening anytime soon.
5. Should there EVER be a reason to restrain the occupants of said residence for over a few minutes in such "wrong address raid" and if so restrained, should the officers be subject to charges should it be an unreasonable time?
SWAT entries are barely restrained chaos mixed with heavily armed ballet. Door open to all visible bodies secured can happen in as little as 13 seconds for a 3 bedroom house. A secondary search to make sure you found all of the hiding live bodies can take and additional 5 to 15 minutes. Getting the detectives inside to sort out the sheep from the goats can take another 5 to 10 minutes. During this time I say restrain em all and let Sarge sort em out. Goats can masquerade as sheep real well if given half a chance. I don't know how long it takes to figure out that you read the numbers over the door wrong but I'm guessing that once the discovery is made a few minutes of "Uh, Sarge, I think we messed up" and "oh poo, of poo, oh poo" are certain to ensue.
As for defining "unreasonable time", all of the various circuit courts and even the Supremes have tried to do that for a long time. Last I heard they were still making case by case assessments. So how about criminal sanctions on the cops. Not likely to happen any time soon as long as that pesky good faith thing still exists. Don't know that I would stay in the business if I knew that I could go to jail for an honest mistake. Would you? Civil sanctions? Lots of lawyers have earned their clients hundreds of dollars and themselves millions by suing cops and the cities that employ them.
None of what I've written excuses deliberate bad actions or honest mistakes that hurt/scare/inconvenience folks. All I'm trying to do is illustrate how people (even members of the government) mess up, the honest ones try to learn from the mess ups and work hard to prevent future ones.
Whether or not you accept anything I've written is up to you. If nothing else I feel obliged to thank you for the opportunity to sharpen my brain and strain my fingers.
Grumpycoconut
Gross negligence, unacceptable incompetence? You bet, no argument absolute agreement. That's why every agency worth its salt reviews every incident. That's why team members, team leaders, commanders, chiefs and the city's general funds all take it in the shorts (and maybe learn to do it right next time) when ever someone screws up.
Statistics are an evil thing. Among the worst thing they do is show clearly and unequivocally that if you do anything long enough bad things are gonna happen. The universe is an uncaring witch and human beings will make mistakes if given the chance. Will there be great weeping and gnashing of teeth? Yes. Will the pain and anger that results from a screw up ever completely heal? Probably not. If, through no fault of my own, I get smacked on the freeway during tomorrow's commute will I be pissed off? Yes, but I'm still going to drive again. Just because the acceptable failure rate in a SWAT op is zero, doesn't mean that the job shouldn't be done. Unfortunately the only ones available to do the job are fallible humans.
Bias? Heck yeah I've got a bias! I'll tell you what it is. I'm pro cop, pro swat, pro gun, pro civil liberties, pro choice, pro legalization, pro critical thinking. I'm also lazy enough to not have read all of the CATO report and way too lazy to dig through my old issues of NTOA's magazine for the critique written by the guy who did. And yes, my critically thinking mind recognizes that he has a bias too. As for my own personal and deeply insightful criticism of the article I'll start with one word in the title, "militarization". Black uniforms, fast violent tactics and black rifles do not militarization make. Mindset, goals and means make militarization. Police/SWAT aim to keep the peace, save lives and enforce the law. The military aims to kill people and break things. I've yet to hear of a SWAT team that chucks in a few frags and suppressive fire before making entry. Is my bias claim still weak because I don't cite learned experts? Yes, but this is the internet and I claim my right to halfassedness.
Specific Questions.
1. Should an officer become wounded or killed in a "wrong address raid," do you believe that the person living in that dwelling should have ANY charges and/or scrutiny?
Scrutiny-yes. every last bit of the incident needs to be picked apart and examined. Charges-It depends. Did or should the person have known that he was shooting at cops? If yes, charges. If no (and it has happened before), no charges.
2. If the person(s) living in that property becomes wounded or killed in a "wrong address raid," should the "leader" of that raid and the acting officers be charged with pre-meditated Murder with potential sentences up to and including the death penalty?
Check your legal definitions. In CA Murder requires malice and forethought. To support a "murder" charge and officer would have to have decided beforehand and with evil intent to kill. The various variations on Man Slaughter (negligence etc.) have been used, sometimes successfully, against officers who wrongly killed a person. The civil courts have also been known to give lots of money to folks who were on the wrong end of police misconduct.
3. Should ALL damages be repaired at the cost of the department IMMEDIATELY and professionally upon such "wrong address raid?"
If I kick in the wrong door, you better bet my department will eventually pony up some cash. Is it as fast as most folks want? No, but cities will pay out if you push them the right way.
4. Should the department be required to issue a public and written acknowledgment of responsibility and apology immediately upon such "wrong address raid?"
Sure, and the cigarette companies, automakers, Chinese toy makers and McDonalds should apologize and pay for the pain their products cause. Of course we are a nation of laws and lawyers so I don't see it happening anytime soon.
5. Should there EVER be a reason to restrain the occupants of said residence for over a few minutes in such "wrong address raid" and if so restrained, should the officers be subject to charges should it be an unreasonable time?
SWAT entries are barely restrained chaos mixed with heavily armed ballet. Door open to all visible bodies secured can happen in as little as 13 seconds for a 3 bedroom house. A secondary search to make sure you found all of the hiding live bodies can take and additional 5 to 15 minutes. Getting the detectives inside to sort out the sheep from the goats can take another 5 to 10 minutes. During this time I say restrain em all and let Sarge sort em out. Goats can masquerade as sheep real well if given half a chance. I don't know how long it takes to figure out that you read the numbers over the door wrong but I'm guessing that once the discovery is made a few minutes of "Uh, Sarge, I think we messed up" and "oh poo, of poo, oh poo" are certain to ensue.
As for defining "unreasonable time", all of the various circuit courts and even the Supremes have tried to do that for a long time. Last I heard they were still making case by case assessments. So how about criminal sanctions on the cops. Not likely to happen any time soon as long as that pesky good faith thing still exists. Don't know that I would stay in the business if I knew that I could go to jail for an honest mistake. Would you? Civil sanctions? Lots of lawyers have earned their clients hundreds of dollars and themselves millions by suing cops and the cities that employ them.
None of what I've written excuses deliberate bad actions or honest mistakes that hurt/scare/inconvenience folks. All I'm trying to do is illustrate how people (even members of the government) mess up, the honest ones try to learn from the mess ups and work hard to prevent future ones.
Whether or not you accept anything I've written is up to you. If nothing else I feel obliged to thank you for the opportunity to sharpen my brain and strain my fingers.
Grumpycoconut
jenrob
Member
I have to agree with most of grumpycoconut's answers
They would have shot me though cause as soon as they would have busted through the door at 3am I would have shoot 1 or 2 of them thru the floor of my bed room.
At this point I would have to say it wasn't my fault but the jerk that put the call in from Wa. state charge him with the officers death. Same goes if I did miss and they shoot me which would happen don't charge thecops for trying to save somebody's life that they had gotten the address from the guy in WA state charge him for my death.
Now if for some reason we all live thru this take what ever the guy has and pay for my front door what he doesn't cover then the state or city can help with the rest of the bill.
If they came in and announced and I informed them I was armed and for some reason convienced them not to advance till I called 911 and verfied cause it doesn't seem right then I would throw out my weapon lay spead on the floor and beg them not to crack my neck to hard when the pounced on me to hook me up and sort this out.
They would have shot me though cause as soon as they would have busted through the door at 3am I would have shoot 1 or 2 of them thru the floor of my bed room.
At this point I would have to say it wasn't my fault but the jerk that put the call in from Wa. state charge him with the officers death. Same goes if I did miss and they shoot me which would happen don't charge thecops for trying to save somebody's life that they had gotten the address from the guy in WA state charge him for my death.
Now if for some reason we all live thru this take what ever the guy has and pay for my front door what he doesn't cover then the state or city can help with the rest of the bill.
If they came in and announced and I informed them I was armed and for some reason convienced them not to advance till I called 911 and verfied cause it doesn't seem right then I would throw out my weapon lay spead on the floor and beg them not to crack my neck to hard when the pounced on me to hook me up and sort this out.
Deanimator
Member
Leaving aside actual criminal conspiracies by police such as the murder of Kathryn Johnston and the attendant coverup attempt, serious problems arise when CYA and arrogance are displayed by the police. "We got the wrong address, sucks to be you." is NOT an unheard of attitude by police, at least until the media and lawyers get involved. There are a certain percentage of police who do NOT view themselves as public servants or bound to serve the public interest. They view ANYTHING they do as right or at worst justified. Large judgements accompany such attitudes like the smell accompanies manure. The problem is that a large judgment won't bring a dead person back to life. And all too often, especially in places like Chicago, police who wrongfully kill people suffer NO meaningful punishment, not even administrative punishment.
I've seen lots of comments from cops to the effect that it doesn't matter how the public thinks about them, because the public hates them anyway. Well, if ever there was a self-fulfilling prophesy, that's it. Of course the short sighted don't see any downside to self-generated animosity toward the police. Anybody with two braincells to rub together could see that therein lies the difference between somebody seeing an officer down and using his radio to call for help, and somebody saying, "Sucks to be you." and going about their business. I'd risk my life to help a Rocky River or Berea, Ohio cop. I wouldn't risk missing a rerun of "That '70s Show" to help a Chicago cop.
KBintheSLC
Member
This is true. However, they usually yell "police" about 0.3 seconds before the breach so they can have the element of surprise.
This is a very dangerous crime for all parties involved. I think multiple, first-degree felonies are deserved by the perps.
If it were my house, I would most likely be dead... along with a couple of the officers that were in the front of the breach squad. I guess this was one of those rare situations that it was probably better that the guy was unarmed.
XDKingslayer
member
My freedom and given the actions of some police agencies that we've seen lately, possibly my life.
Rocksurly
Member
It looks like the problem is the door. So what we need is a better lock and or door.
http://www.theultimatelock.com/
http://usbulletproofing.com/USBPProductdoors.htm
http://www.theultimatelock.com/
http://usbulletproofing.com/USBPProductdoors.htm
Rocksurly
Member
Well this door say's " It carries a 60 minute forced entry rating in addition to blast and ballistic capabilities." Yes in time they would get in but it should give you more time to wake up and identify who it is etc.
http://usbulletproofing.com/USBPDoor3000.htm
http://usbulletproofing.com/USBPDoor3000.htm
Rocksurly
Member
Well this door say's " It carries a 60 minute forced entry rating in addition to blast and ballistic capabilities." Yes in time they would get in but it should give you more time to wake up and identify who it is etc.
http://usbulletproofing.com/USBPDoor3000.htm
http://usbulletproofing.com/USBPDoor3000.htm
My opinion like it or not...
If this were MY contry... and it is...
1. Should an officer become wounded or killed in a "wrong address raid," do you believe that the person living in that dwelling should have ANY charges and/or scrutinity?
Investigated? Yes. Charged? Never. The warrant is what makes kicking someone’s door down w/ guns drawn legal. Otherwise it would be like if I did it to my neighbor; kicked in my poor neighbors door at 3am and shot his dog and tied him up. There's a lot of charges there, and if my poor neighbor defended himself (at least where I live) it would be perfectly legal.
2. If the person(s) living in that property becomes wounded or killed in a "wrong address raid," should the "leader" of that raid and the acting officers be charged with pre-meditated Murder with potential sentences up to and including the death penalty?
Not murder, but Manslaughter or attempted Manslaughter, no question. Kicking down an innocent mans door (by mistake) and killing him is just that, Manslaughter.
3. Should ALL damages be repaired at the cost of the department IMMEDIATELY and professionally upon such "wrong address raid?"
How could any Gov dept or business or anyone for that matter in good conscience not repair immediately. It's illegal to damage someone’s property for no reason. Period.
4. Should the department be required to issue a public and written acknowledgment of responsibility and apology immediately upon such "wrong address raid?"
It should go without saying.
5. Should there EVER be a reason to restrain the occupants of said residence for over a few minutes in such "wrong address raid" and if so restrained, should the officers be subject to charges should it be an unreasonable time?
Why not? People are charged to the fullest extent all the time for their gross negligence... Why not tack this on, just to save the dept a little grief? They'd be guilty of it charged or not...
If this were MY contry... and it is...
1. Should an officer become wounded or killed in a "wrong address raid," do you believe that the person living in that dwelling should have ANY charges and/or scrutinity?
Investigated? Yes. Charged? Never. The warrant is what makes kicking someone’s door down w/ guns drawn legal. Otherwise it would be like if I did it to my neighbor; kicked in my poor neighbors door at 3am and shot his dog and tied him up. There's a lot of charges there, and if my poor neighbor defended himself (at least where I live) it would be perfectly legal.
2. If the person(s) living in that property becomes wounded or killed in a "wrong address raid," should the "leader" of that raid and the acting officers be charged with pre-meditated Murder with potential sentences up to and including the death penalty?
Not murder, but Manslaughter or attempted Manslaughter, no question. Kicking down an innocent mans door (by mistake) and killing him is just that, Manslaughter.
3. Should ALL damages be repaired at the cost of the department IMMEDIATELY and professionally upon such "wrong address raid?"
How could any Gov dept or business or anyone for that matter in good conscience not repair immediately. It's illegal to damage someone’s property for no reason. Period.
4. Should the department be required to issue a public and written acknowledgment of responsibility and apology immediately upon such "wrong address raid?"
It should go without saying.
5. Should there EVER be a reason to restrain the occupants of said residence for over a few minutes in such "wrong address raid" and if so restrained, should the officers be subject to charges should it be an unreasonable time?
Why not? People are charged to the fullest extent all the time for their gross negligence... Why not tack this on, just to save the dept a little grief? They'd be guilty of it charged or not...
zxcvbob
Member
Chicago doesn't apply; it is a special case. Chicago PD is the definition of organized crime.
cassandrasdaddy
Member
- Joined
- Jul 1, 2006
- Messages
- 4,206
door is a cute conversation piece but fluff unless you beef up the wall. you'd have a high dollar door on the ground with the wall around it as a frame
Deanimator
Member
Of course that eliminates the problem of either a quick or surreptitious entry, which I think was the point.
When I was a kid in Chicago in the '60s, home invasions got to be so ubiquitous that in addition to steel gates on doors and accessible windows, my father installed a steel prop rod on the front door. It fit into sockets on the back of the door and set into the floor. Once you got through the gate, you had to physically DESTROY the door in order to get in. You could get in, but you couldn't get in unnoticed. Too bad he didn't have a gun too.
cassandrasdaddy
Member
- Joined
- Jul 1, 2006
- Messages
- 4,206
does someone really shoot through the floor or is a school holiday
I think the perfect way to prevent this from happening is to have the swat team publicly execute the moron who is wasting police time and resources and putting innocent people in danger of unnecessary confrontations with police.
I don't care that he's a "poor, dumb young 19 year old who didn't understand the gravity of his situation".
Wah, wah, wah...
Eliminate him from the gene pool and you'll save the taxpayers thousands of dollars.
I don't care that he's a "poor, dumb young 19 year old who didn't understand the gravity of his situation".
Wah, wah, wah...
Eliminate him from the gene pool and you'll save the taxpayers thousands of dollars.
Wrong house.
I have a coworker whose house was mistakely raided by the San Jose police several years back on a no knock warrant.
The sad thing is we have some police agencies in this country who would probably try to cover up such a foul up if it did happen.
With the drug war, the war on terror, gang abatement etc etc, our police agencies are becoming more isolated from we the people.
Police agencies, especially SWAT teams, have to be able to act quickly, they can't take the time to plan every move they do in emergent situations.
This is something that needs to be vigorously prosecuted.
These are crimes that are done for no other reason than to have "fun". Those who commit such crimes need to be made examples off.
Potentially destroying people's lives just for kicks is sick and if I was sitting on a judgement, I would throw the book at them up to and including the death penalty.
Nicki
I have a coworker whose house was mistakely raided by the San Jose police several years back on a no knock warrant.
The sad thing is we have some police agencies in this country who would probably try to cover up such a foul up if it did happen.
With the drug war, the war on terror, gang abatement etc etc, our police agencies are becoming more isolated from we the people.
Police agencies, especially SWAT teams, have to be able to act quickly, they can't take the time to plan every move they do in emergent situations.
This is something that needs to be vigorously prosecuted.
These are crimes that are done for no other reason than to have "fun". Those who commit such crimes need to be made examples off.
Potentially destroying people's lives just for kicks is sick and if I was sitting on a judgement, I would throw the book at them up to and including the death penalty.
Nicki
MudPuppy
Member
Just to clarify, what happens if it's criminals that have gone so far astray that they'll tell lies in addition to the crime of armed home invasion?
JWarren,
The link you gave is outdated. There was one in the Twin Cities recently where a cop was killed and another wounded. That one's not on the map, and it was a while back. Since that one is missing, I'm sure others are too. This crap is happening with greater and greater frequency. They're screaming about it on "another site." The main difference there is that the JBT apologists are even more outnumbered than they are here.
Some who work/worked in LE are quick to encourage calm. "isolated incidents," they say. "The vast majority of warrantless entries are resolved..." "No-knock warrants are an important tool..."
None of that matters. People's rights are being violated. LE are not held to the same standard that other civilians are. Change is needed.
This thread, and the accompanying links, have made me consider abandoning our landline. I'm wondering if this same thing could happen off of cell-phone registration. There's a billing address with the account, but not much else.
The link you gave is outdated. There was one in the Twin Cities recently where a cop was killed and another wounded. That one's not on the map, and it was a while back. Since that one is missing, I'm sure others are too. This crap is happening with greater and greater frequency. They're screaming about it on "another site." The main difference there is that the JBT apologists are even more outnumbered than they are here.
Some who work/worked in LE are quick to encourage calm. "isolated incidents," they say. "The vast majority of warrantless entries are resolved..." "No-knock warrants are an important tool..."
None of that matters. People's rights are being violated. LE are not held to the same standard that other civilians are. Change is needed.
This thread, and the accompanying links, have made me consider abandoning our landline. I'm wondering if this same thing could happen off of cell-phone registration. There's a billing address with the account, but not much else.
Johnnybgood
Member
- Joined
- Feb 7, 2005
- Messages
- 206
1. I prefer to believe my local pd is not out to get me.
2. I believe they really are only trying to help.
3. Yes, mistakes get made. I on the other hand do not need to make them worse by making any more of them.
4. If I get a call from a guy saying they had a report of a murder/hostage situation in my home, I will probably follow directions. though would appreciate a chance to call the local pd to verify they are who they say they are.
5. If a mistake, they repair the damage and call my employer to tell them I won't be coming to work today cause I am busy cleaning all the poo I left on the floor.
2. I believe they really are only trying to help.
3. Yes, mistakes get made. I on the other hand do not need to make them worse by making any more of them.
4. If I get a call from a guy saying they had a report of a murder/hostage situation in my home, I will probably follow directions. though would appreciate a chance to call the local pd to verify they are who they say they are.
5. If a mistake, they repair the damage and call my employer to tell them I won't be coming to work today cause I am busy cleaning all the poo I left on the floor.
Deanimator
Member
Depends upon where you live.
I've lived in at least one place that's had a home invasion and kidnapping ring operating inside the police department. If that's not "out to get" you, I don't know what is.
grumpycoconut,
Thanks for your response. I've had a long day, and I'll respond to you in the morning most likely.
I did want to point out that I once had full faith in our LEO community as well.
I think I began to seriously realize the danger of some of our LEO activites when I read the account last year of the SWAT raid to the wrong address in a surburban Chicago (I think) neighborhood. I'll look it up tomorrow and provide the links.
In short, flash grenades were thrown THROUGH the windows of the home (read: broken windows), the front door was kicked in (read: broken door), and the flash grenades burned the carpet in the living room (read serious smoke and property damage.)
Now top this off with handcuffing the 9 year-old grandson and the two elderly grandparents for THREE HOURS while they sorted all this out. The residents had to sit on the floor in the living room during this period of time.
Adding insult to injury, the homeowner had to go to city council to get his front door fixed.
Seriously, there is NO excuse for this crap.
-- John
Thanks for your response. I've had a long day, and I'll respond to you in the morning most likely.
I did want to point out that I once had full faith in our LEO community as well.
I think I began to seriously realize the danger of some of our LEO activites when I read the account last year of the SWAT raid to the wrong address in a surburban Chicago (I think) neighborhood. I'll look it up tomorrow and provide the links.
In short, flash grenades were thrown THROUGH the windows of the home (read: broken windows), the front door was kicked in (read: broken door), and the flash grenades burned the carpet in the living room (read serious smoke and property damage.)
Now top this off with handcuffing the 9 year-old grandson and the two elderly grandparents for THREE HOURS while they sorted all this out. The residents had to sit on the floor in the living room during this period of time.
Adding insult to injury, the homeowner had to go to city council to get his front door fixed.
Seriously, there is NO excuse for this crap.
-- John
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