Ken,
Well, I got a good night sleep, but got busy with my nephew today. I’ll devote a bit of time to this thread now.
Before I even begin, I should state that you and I are most likely at an impasse’. You’ve made clear your bias in this matter, and while I don’t have a dog in this fight I am as concerned as any law-abiding citizen SHOULD be over the frequency of these mistakes. And BEING a law-abiding citizen, I would expect our LEO community to pay close attention to rightful criticism of haphazard practices.
Before responding directly to any of your points, I thought I’d toss out the results of a quick Yahoo search. Understand that I finally just got bored with retrieving links.
1 - 10 of 1,070,000 for no- knock warrant wrong address
http://fourthamendment.com/blog/ind..._warrant_and_nonincorpor&more=1&c=1&tb=1&pb=1
http://www.usatoday.com/news/2001-01-16-raid.htm
http://www.durangoherald.com/asp-bi...e=news&article_path=/news/07/news070615_1.htm
http://wcco.com/crime/wrong.house.raid.2.616029.html
http://www.usatoday.com/life/people/2006-10-25-shaq-search_x.htm?csp=34
http://archives.cnn.com/2000/US/12/02/officersentenced.ap/
http://kstp.com/article/stories/S286741.shtml?cat=1
http://www.eastvalleytribune.com/story/81092
http://www.wjla.com/news/stories/1107/474003.html
http://www.startribune.com/local/12616796.html
http://www.hawaiireporter.com/story.aspx?38833b1f-5325-49d5-8cb7-84211f594afe
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2002494877_webwronghome14.html
http://www.ketv.com/news/10379029/detail.html
http://libpub.dispatch.com/cgi-bin/documentv1?DBLIST=cd01&DOCNUM=35491
From THR:
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/seminole/orl-bk-dogshooting021608,0,593507.story
http://hamptonroads.com/2008/01/aunt-says-frederick-was-protecting-himself-when-officer-was-shot
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=275624&highlight=wrong+address
Below is the text of the article I mentioned earlier from the Chicago Tribune. The link to it is dead now, but this was the case that started me taking a serious and skeptical look at some of what I consider irresponsible and unprofessional LEO practices as it relates to “SWAT-style” raids:
Gun raid on wrong house spurs inquiry
By Kayce T. Ataiyero and Mark Shuman
Chicago Tribune
Published March 15, 2007, 10:09 PM CDT
Four days after more than a dozen heavily armed police officers raided her Elgin home, Betty Granger got the news she was waiting for early Thursday: The city would repair the damage—pronto.
The morning after she and her husband, Frank, told the Elgin City Council of the splintered door frames and shattered windows, workers were dispatched to the couple's white bungalow tools in hand.
"I asked the officers why they did this, and they said they got a tip that there were guns in the house," said Betty Granger, 60. "I told them that if they had just asked us, if they had just knocked on the door and asked, I would have let them search the house."
No weapons were found during the Sunday raid at their home in the 400 block of Ann Street, she said. Authorities said they were looking for a suspect who was believed armed.
"It wasn't the Grangers we were looking for. Our suspect had the weapon," said Deputy Police Chief Jeff Swoboda. "The person lived there and we had reliable information he had a gun."
Police declined to name the suspect or say whether he had an arrest record. The Grangers denied Thursday that the suspect, a relative, had a criminal history.
The city has launched an investigation into the raid as well as into Betty Granger's accusations that Elgin police officers discouraged her from filing a complaint.
The Police Department also is investigating the incident, authorities said. At a news conference Thursday, the department's top officials declined to discuss the specifics of the Grangers' case but said they were concerned about what happened during the execution of the search warrant.
After listening Wednesday night to the Grangers' emotional description of the raid, Councilman Thomas Sandor said he believes they are a "credible couple" and that the council was concerned about their allegations.
Sandor said the city manager has been told to look into the case and report back on April 11.
Shortly after 7 a.m., the Grangers said they were jarred from their sleep by what sounded like an explosion as police tossed smoke bombs through the basement windows. Other explosions followed as officers burst through the doors.
Frank Granger said he sprang from his bed, peered out of the window and saw a masked man dressed in fatigues pointing a gun at him.
"I thought someone was breaking into the house to kill us," said Frank Granger, 62.
He ran down the hallway and into the living room, where he said he encountered 15 to 20 armed men. Still not aware they were police officers, Granger said he ran back into the bedroom and shut the door.
Officers kicked it in and leveled guns at him and his wife, he said. For the next two hours, the Grangers, an adult son and three teenage grandsons sat handcuffed while their home was searched, Frank Granger said. The couple said the police found nothing.
The Grangers said the house they lived in for 35 years was left in shambles. A grandson had to nail the back door closed, and until workers arrived, the front door was propped shut with a chair.
Deputy Police Chief Robert Beeter stopped by the house and told the couple he was sorry for what happened, Betty Granger said.
"I'm always sorry when people are frustrated or upset with the Elgin Police Department," Police Chief Lisa Womack said at the news conference.
Swoboda said it would have been normal procedure in such a raid to use as many as 15 officers.
Despite workers bustling around the Grangers' home Thursday, signs of the raid remained. Shattered glass littered the basement window frames. Patches of missing paint encircled the handle of the bedroom door. The carpet was seared with burn marks.
Betty Granger said that although she was shaken by the ordeal, she was reluctant to speak ill of the city. She said she was pleased so far with the response she had received.
"I am not trying to blast the Police Department," she said. "We are trying to get everything fixed."
Frank Granger, a retired Metra conductor, said he was upset earlier in the week but now believes it may have been a good thing that it happened to him and not to an older man.
"Some other poor guy could have had a heart attack and died because my heart about jumped out of my chest," he said. "I got a chance to see what a real criminal feels like."
Mark Shuman is a freelance reporter. Freelance reporter Amanda Marrazzo contributed to this report.
[email protected]
Now, to respond. Again, I think we are going to be at an impasse’ on this matter. I get the impression that there is an underlying current of “You have to break a few eggs to make an omelet.” I am not willing to accept that argument.
In addition, it seems that a lot of your response deals with “the way things are.” Again, I am not at all interested in that.
I am reminded of a quote from George Bernard Shaw when he said
You see the world as it is and say “Why”
But I dream worlds that never were and say “Why Not?”
I’m less interested in the way things are than I am with making SERIOUS changes to the approach we go about such matters as raids. I do not accept that it is worth the death or injury of innocent law-abiding taxpayers to find a baggie of drugs before someone flushes them.
I reject the notion that "the ends justify the means." And in the case of officer safety, I submit that I EXPECT as much concern for the lives of innocents to be displayed as concern for officer safety.
Gross negligence, unacceptable incompetence? You bet, no argument absolute agreement. That's why every agency worth its salt reviews every incident. That's why team members, team leaders, commanders, chiefs and the city's general funds all take it in the shorts (and maybe learn to do it right next time) when ever someone screws up.
Good! And I am stating that they should be held criminally liable in such matters. Money paid does not equal lives destroyed. Negligence IS a crime.
Statistics are an evil thing. Among the worst thing they do is show clearly and unequivocally that if you do anything long enough bad things are gonna happen. The universe is an uncaring witch and human beings will make mistakes if given the chance. Will there be great weeping and gnashing of teeth? Yes. Will the pain and anger that results from a screw up ever completely heal? Probably not. If, through no fault of my own, I get smacked on the freeway during tomorrow's commute will I be pissed off? Yes, but I'm still going to drive again. Just because the acceptable failure rate in a SWAT op is zero, doesn't mean that the job shouldn't be done. Unfortunately the only ones available to do the job are fallible humans.
And If *I* show negligence and kill someone, I may be charged with Negligent Homicide—not lose a week’s pay.
Bias? Heck yeah I've got a bias! I'll tell you what it is. I'm pro cop, pro swat, pro gun, pro civil liberties, pro choice, pro legalization, pro critical thinking.
Sometimes being “Pro-cop” stands in opposition to being Pro-Civil Liberties. I hope that doesn’t alter your being Pro-Critical Thinking. After all, not too long ago here, we had New Orleans Police Officers caught shaking down Mardi Gras tourists by making them go to the ATM and withdrawing money for them or be taken to jail.
I grew up with a sheriff who was on the take from the largest drug dealer in the area.
Any “Pro- anything” with me first has to pass my “Pro-Ethical” test. Then I’ll look to the ol’ Pro-Principled test. We get through that and my last test is the Pro-Truth test. After that, we’ll begin to see what I am Pro or Anti in terms of institutions and people.
I'm also lazy enough to not have read all of the CATO report and way too lazy to dig through my old issues of NTOA's magazine for the critique written by the guy who did. And yes, my critically thinking mind recognizes that he has a bias too. As for my own personal and deeply insightful criticism of the article I'll start with one word in the title, "militarization". Black uniforms, fast violent tactics and black rifles do not militarization make.
I’m far less worried about what is fashionable in the LEO community or what tools they use. I am ABSOLUTELY concerned about whether they can get the simple act of getting to the correct location right. Thusfar, I am not satisfied with the sheer frequency of those that can’t.
As one of the above articles wrote, “We are seeing a lack of good, old-fashioned Police-work PRIOR to and leading up to a raid.”
I concur.
Mindset, goals and means make militarization.
I’d just be satisfied with them having good directions.
Police/SWAT aim to keep the peace, save lives and enforce the law.
And if I were a cop, I would consider the failures we are discussing an outrage instead of accepting their inevitability.
The military aims to kill people and break things. I've yet to hear of a SWAT team that chucks in a few frags and suppressive fire before making entry.
How about Flash-Bangs that burn up the floor? I have.
Is my bias claim still weak because I don't cite learned experts? Yes, but this is the internet and I claim my right to halfassedness.
Fair enough. I have had my half-ass moments, and I’ll not fault you on yours.
Specific Questions.
1. Should an officer become wounded or killed in a "wrong address raid," do you believe that the person living in that dwelling should have ANY charges and/or scrutiny?
Scrutiny-yes. every last bit of the incident needs to be picked apart and examined. Charges-It depends. Did or should the person have known that he was shooting at cops? If yes, charges. If no (and it has happened before), no charges.
Good answer. I agree completely.
2. If the person(s) living in that property becomes wounded or killed in a "wrong address raid," should the "leader" of that raid and the acting officers be charged with pre-meditated Murder with potential sentences up to and including the death penalty?
Check your legal definitions. In CA Murder requires malice and forethought.
I’m not interested in CA law—as it applies only in CA. However, I DO consider throwing incendiary devices through windows as forethought.
To support a "murder" charge and officer would have to have decided beforehand and with evil intent to kill. The various variations on Man Slaughter (negligence etc.) have been used, sometimes successfully, against officers who wrongly killed a person.
“Manslaughter” IS a form of Murder Charge. So is Negligent Homicide. Neither require malice, forethought, or evil intent.
The civil courts have also been known to give lots of money to folks who were on the wrong end of police misconduct.
And again, money does not replace lives destroyed. Nor does it necessarily hold the right parties accountable.
3. Should ALL damages be repaired at the cost of the department IMMEDIATELY and professionally upon such "wrong address raid?"
If I kick in the wrong door, you better bet my department will eventually pony up some cash. Is it as fast as most folks want? No, but cities will pay out if you push them the right way.
I don’t like the word “Eventually.”
My belief is that if you kick in the wrong door, SOMEONE in charge who also has a checkbook needs to be awakened BEFORE YOU LEAVE THE PREMISES.
You cause it, you don’t get to fix it at your leisure.
And you OWE it to that person to secure their premises UNTIL it IS fixed.
And a law-abiding citizen should not HAVE to push the city the right way to fix something like this. Both the responsibility AND the remuneration belongs those that asked for and lead the raid.
4. Should the department be required to issue a public and written acknowledgment of responsibility and apology immediately upon such "wrong address raid?"
Sure, and the cigarette companies, automakers, Chinese toy makers and McDonalds should apologize and pay for the pain their products cause. Of course we are a nation of laws and lawyers so I don't see it happening anytime soon.
Perhaps not, but I do hope you aren’t denying that it is OWED.
Don't know that I would stay in the business if I knew that I could go to jail for an honest mistake. Would you?
If you “honest mistake” comes from a lack of due diligence and gross negligence, you SHOULD be held criminally accountable. Period.
A teacher can be charged with negligence. Why should you be immune?
Civil sanctions? Lots of lawyers have earned their clients hundreds of dollars and themselves millions by suing cops and the cities that employ them.
And again, money does not replace lives ruined.
None of what I've written excuses deliberate bad actions or honest mistakes that hurt/scare/inconvenience folks.
I think where we are missing each other is the concept of NEGLIGENCE. When your decisions can cost lives, you OWE it to yourself and others to show due diligence.
All I'm trying to do is illustrate how people (even members of the government) mess up, the honest ones try to learn from the mess ups and work hard to prevent future ones.
That is what we all hope for. But again, I DO NOT feel that negligence should be given a free pass. When negligence can be a criminal charge against a citizen, the same should apply to anyone else.
You are right that there are no excuses for criminal behaviour from LEOs. There are also no excuses for flat out stupidity.
I think we are perhaps in more agreement than I previously thought. The “flat-out stupidity” you refer to is the negligence I am referring to.
Have you considered that the bad stuff that sees the light of day is actually part of the process of law enforcement getting better.
Perhaps, but I am not comfortable in being the test case for steam-lining practices. And mistakes in that learning process should be held accountable.
If nothing else, shining light on these things makes it possible to examine them. Unfortunately the tone of that light can sometimes slow the positive changes that need making. No one responds well when attacked. (I think I detect a bit of irony in that last bit
True. But when you screw up that bad, you don’t get the luxury of being indignant. You eat crow—just like anyone else.
The history lesson is in no way intended as support for any excuses. It is merely intended to show that LE is still a growing and learning endeavor and that growth is almost always accompanied by pain.
Yes. And if it will be painful to the innocents, it should be equally painful to those responsible for it.
I hear stories from other cops about some departments that make me pale and its all I can do to remember that more of us are trying to get better at doing the business right than not. Any honest cop will tell you that we still have a long way to go. Those same honest cops will also be the first to dig into the ugliest parts of what we do wrong in order to learn how to keep it from happening again.
And those that I DO have faith in are the ones you highlighted above. I recognize that the VAST majority of LEOs are great, giving people. I, however, have seen enough of the minority to not make assumptions. But I give full respect to those that show the integrity and professionalism that the job not only deserves—but requires.
Thanks for the discussion, Ken. And thanks for being one of the ones that I do have faith in.
I guess, as it turns out, we are not an impasse’ as much as I previously believed.
-- John
