Swiss and US Made P210's Compared

[bc1023]

I will trade you my P210-6 Adjustable for a Nighthawk President.

Sorry Jim

I already got rid of all my Nighthawks. However if I had a President, I’d gladly trade it for a forged P210-6 from the 60’s or 70’s in similar condition.

I wouldn’t think twice.

Nighthawk builds a decent gun, but there’s nothing special about them. They sell them hand over fist and several thousand a year. They bore me. That goes for any semi custom 1911.

 

[Combloc1]

Picking up where I left off.


Let's look at the slide stops. Nobody ever seems to look at these little thingees. With many pistol designs, the oft-ignored slide stop is really the only thing holding the whole contraption together. It's like a magical little key that keeps everything in one piece. It's the glue that makes everything stick together as a unit so that it doesn't go kaplooey. OK....you get the idea. Here are the magical key slide stop thingees:






You can easily see that, on the backside, they are very similar in design. On the front side, the old Swiss one looks really neato with its exquisite checkering but it's pretty non-user friendly compared to the new model. To be fair, the Swiss one pictured is the early type. SIG quickly figured out that it was lacking in the ergonomics department and replaced it with a more user friendly/traditional design that had a protrusion for your thumb to catch. It was still too short though. The US one has rectified this long standing problem and is darn near perfect.



Let's take a closer look at the slides for a moment. Here, we see them removed from their slides but with the barrels and recoil assemblies still in place.


At first glance, they look pretty similar. They ride inside the frame rather than straddle it. Anyone who is familiar with this setup knows that it is a key ingredient in the legendary accuracy these pistols are known for. The Czechs, smart cookies that they are, employ this feature on the CZ75 too. We can see that the camming cuts on the bottom of the breach are nearly identical to each other too.


Let's look at them from the bottom:


Again, one just looks like a newer version of the other.


One really nice upgrade the new 210 has added is the firing pin safety. In the picture below, the US model is on the top:


Notice the little pin sticking down on the US model is absent on the Swiss one. This is the firing pin safety. I shouldn't need to explain how and why this makes a pistol MUCH safer as you should already know.



Comparing the ejection ports, we can start to see that the new SIG locks up differently than the old SIG.




Now, I am fully aware that pretty much everyone reading this is already aware of the fact that they lock up differently and I'm not here to debate which is better. The fact is....they do the same thing (lock the action) but go about it differently. If you don't know what I'm talking about, it will be abundantly clear when we look at the barrels later. I will say that I prefer the elegant curves of the Swiss ejection port to the blocky and industrial look of the US one. Notice the machining lines on the Swiss slide compared to the absolutely flawless perfection of the US one. As I said when looking at the muzzles, I actually like machining marks. They give things a certain organic look and remind you that a human being employed his hands and put a lot of time into crafting this part all those years ago. His craft is frozen in time, a window to the past. But there is something to be said for the perfectly smooth look of the US one too. It reminds you that man has harnessed technology and employed it in such a way as to revolutionize the way we produce things, surpassing with electrons and silicon what man can do with his own hands; the same hands that produced the very machines which now achieve a level of perfection that he could not on his own. In this way, it is a window to the future. It boggles the mind I tell you!!



Ummmm….okiedokie. It's pretty obvious that it's late and my mind is drifting into weird philosophical places soooooo I'm finishing up for the night. Actually, I'm always strange. The truth is, the frames are next up and there are a lot of pretty pictures to look at so this is a good stopping point. See you in the next post!

 

[zaitcev]

I'm wondering what that little gush is on the shank of American slide stop. What is it for?

 

[bc1023]

To be fair, this comparison should be done using a Swiss Target model, preferrably from the 1970’s, rather than an old milspec model.

It’s kind of apples and oranges in some aspects, as it stands.

 

[dh1633pm]

A man has to review what a man has. Thanks for the review on these fine pistols.

 

[zeke]

Have an older M49, and recently got the 210a. Given Sigs unpredictability in keeping models or supporting them, jumped at chance to get the 210a. With it's increasing value, made economic decision not to shoot the older 210 on regular basis. Please to take the 210a trigger warning seriously, and learned not to shoot the pistol with cold hands or outside in winter. The trigger has a step, and if shooting using it, takes practice. The second stage is so light as to be almost imperceptible. Was kinda upset about the new fangled plastic insert in the front sight, until using pistol at indoor range where the dot eased finding the front site. Would prefer smaller grips, but the target grips kinda force you to use a target trigger pull, which am adjusting to. On the pistol owned the safety is stiff, needs the leverage of the lever but is well placed.

Am hoping the next stage of this review includes comparison of hammer group removal? Something the new version's manual does not cover, but is very nice feature of the 210's.

 

[Slamfire]

Great series of posts. You are such a romantic, nothing wrong with that. A lot has been lost in the advancement of technology, some new things gained.

 

[zeke]

This is the best comparison have seen, and especially useful for those considering purchase. The photo's are excellent!

 

[denster]

Completely agree with the previous two posts. Keep up the good work we appreciate it.

 

[Combloc1]

zaitcev, I'm assuming you are talking about the little divot on the axle pin when you say "gush"? There is a retaining spring that clicks into there to hold the stop in place. On the Swiss one, there is a similar but smaller divot on the bottom of the axle. The retaining springs will be visible when I post the frame pictures.

 

[Combloc1]

Next, we'll look at some comparisons shots of the frames.


One of the unique features the original 210 has is the ability to remove the entire hammer group as a unit just like on a Soviet TT33. With the pistol apart, you could simply lift the sear, hammer and hammer spring out as a unit for repair or replacement. The new 210 also has a unitized hammer group but it is held into the frame with a screw. Below is a picture showing this screw:

Notice that the Swiss pistol already has its hammer group removed. We'll see what it look like in an upcoming picture. I have not removed the new hammer group nor do I plan to as the only real reason to do so is if a part needs replacement.


Here are a couple views comparing the inside of the dust covers with the Swiss on the left:



Again we see that the new 210 is much better finished in this area.


A little bit better view showing the area in front of the triggers:



The US one is pretty much a study in perfection while the Swiss model is rough as a cob. However, the fact is none of this matters from a function point of view because nothing is going on here. On both pistols, the fit between the rails on the slide and frame is so precise that it feels like they are literally on roller bearings. I've handed quite a few pistols over the years and NONE have felt as smooth and precise with regard to slide movement as a P210. If you've never experienced one, you simply cannot understand how slick they are and words cannot convey the reality of it. It's what I like to call "NASA accurate." Rack the slide on a 210 and you are in love.


Here is a top view of the trigger on the Swiss:

Please excuse the fact that it looks a little gritty in there. What you are seeing are streaks and globs of Automatenfett (it's what the Swiss use to lubricate their firearms). Notice the slide stop retaining spring running along the left side of the frame. On this model, that spring runs underneath the slide stop axle. The trigger will not drop the hammer unless there is a magazine locked in place.


And here is a top view of the US trigger:

It looks similar but there is no magazine safety present so the the hammer can be dropped with the magazine removed. Again we see the slide stop retaining spring running along the left side of the frame but in this design, it rides on top of the axle. The grit seen is due to the fact that this pistol was not cleaned after its last trip to the range. OOPS!


Top of the Swiss hammer group:



And the top of the US hammer group:

While not absolutely identical, it should be clear that they are very close in design. I haven't torn them apart for comparison (nor do I plan to) but, other than the lack of a magazine safety on the new one, I'd venture a guess that they operate pretty much the same way. The take up on the US model is smoother and the let off is lighter but the Swiss pistol is no slouch. Both are stellar.


Comparison shots of the recoil spring assemblies:



Note the parts in the white on the Swiss assembly. Lots of the Swiss parts are in the white, including the barrel. I haven't noticed any parts in the white on the new one. These assemblies are not really supposed to be disassembled and, to be honest, I haven't tried to figure out how so we aren't gonna' do it! The US assembly is shorter because there is a shelf up inside the slide that the front of it presses against. On the Swiss pistol, the front of the recoil assembly rests against the front of the slide as is traditional on most pistols. Why they made this change, I do not know.

 

[Combloc1]

Alrighty...this is the last post.


Let's look at the barrels. We'll start with the bottoms:

This is where the rear of the recoil assemblies rest and the slide stop pin passes through. Yep, they look very similar and pretty too! The new jobber is obviously based on the old jobber.



The breach with the Swiss on the left:

Again they look similar although the US on is squared off at the top. Hmmmm…...what's that eyebrow looking thingee sticking out at the top of the US barrel?


Side view:

Yeppers, look at the cam slot for the slide stop axle. Clearly the same design. HEY! Wait a minute! Where are the locking lugs on the US barrel?? What's going on here??



Let's take a closer look:

Did they forget to machine the locking lugs on the US one?? Nope. They lock up differently. The original SIG uses the Petter/Browning system wherein there are lugs machined on the barrel which lock into corresponding cut outs in the slide. The new P210 uses the SIG SAUER system which employs no such lugs. Instead, it uses the front and rear surfaces of the breach/chamber to lock into the front and rear of the ejection port. This system was first used on the SIG P220 back in 1975 and is still used to this day throughout the SIG SAUER lineup. This is the number one major departure from the original P210 design. Some guys seem to hate that they did this on the new 210. Pretty much every other part of the pistol is simply an evolution of the original design and they can't understand why the locking system was changed. So why did they do it? I don't know. May folks will have their opinion but it's nothing more than that really....their opinion. In the end, only SS knows for sure why they . I for one won't speculate. I will say that it works and it works spectacularly. If you want to buy a new P210, you're just going to have to accept that changes were made. If you don't want that, then go buy an old one. In my opinion, either will make you a very happy dude at the range.



Let's take a look at the inside of the slides.

Swiss showing the milled slots for the locking lugs on the barrel:

Again, ignore all the automatenfett smeared around in there. I really should have wiped that off first.

And American showing no locking surfaces but plenty of smooth goodness and perfection:



Just for fun, here are a couple pictures showing the new P210 barrel compared to an old 9mm P220 barrel from the 1970's:



There is absolutely no question that the new P210 uses the P220 locking design.


And here is a photo showing the inside of the US P210 slide on the left compared to a 1977 P220 slide on the right:

Notice that the wear marks on the 210 are even reminiscent of the contours seen in the early 220 slide. Very interesting!


Disassembled view of the old and new:

Notice the hammer unit removed from the frame of the Swiss pistol.


This last picture shows the true lineage of the new P210:

Just as is shown in the picture, the new P210 is not really a remake of the P210 nor is it a P220. Instead, it falls somewhere in between the two, clearly leaning toward the one but having a healthy dose of DNA from the other one too. In my experience, it is every bit the equal of both but yet distinctly different than either. If you ask me, the best way to get your head right with this pistol is to think of it as a P215.


Well, that's it. We're done. I hope this little essay is helpful to you guys in some small way. As was explained in the beginning, it's an attempt at a general comparison between the two. As I also said at the beginning, I prefer the Swiss P210 but I prefer it, not because it is better, but because it is Swiss made. Yes, it is a fine shooter but ultimately, I bought it because it is Swiss through and through. For me, it's that simple. If you are thinking of buying the new one in order to save money because what you really wanted was an original, do not buy this pistol. It's never, ever going to be an original P210 and you will be sorely disappointed. BUT, if you are thinking of buying the SIG SAUER P210 because you want an outstanding range pistol that is the very definition of Quality, gives you that priceless feeling of mechanical perfection every time you pick it up and will outshoot pretty much anything else you own; well this just might be the pistol for you. If that's what you are looking for, I really don't think you can go wrong with this pistol. Besides, if you eventually tire of it, I'd almost guarantee you will make money on it when you let it go. But I'd also almost guarantee that you would eventually regret letting it go too! Whatever you decide, I want to thank you for taking the time to read this and I hope all your range days are sunny, warm and fun!

 

[Zaydok Allen]

Just wanted to say I've thoroughly enjoyed this thread. Thanks for taking the time.

 

[zeke]

THANK YOU! The best comparison have ever seen, with the best pictures. Sincerely appreciated.

 

[Rinspeed]

Awesome write up and pics, at around $1400 the new P210 is a hell of a deal even if I'm not real big on newer Sigs. The American Rifleman had an article on the new P210 by Wiley Clapp. Quite impressive five shot groups, out of a RR, at 25 yards. Average out of 25 groups shot was .91" and smallest group was .49". Sig USA has always had quite the knack of being a massive embarrassment to what once a great company but I still wish them success.

 

[Nuclear]

I'd buy one of the P210As in a heartbeat, if they had normal grips, as I have smaller hands.

 

[bc1023]

Awesome write up and pics, at around $1400 the new P210 is a hell of a deal even if I'm not real big on newer Sigs. The American Rifleman had an article on the new P210 by Wiley Clapp. Quite impressive five shot groups, out of a RR, at 25 yards. Average out of 25 groups shot was .91" and smallest group was .49". Sig USA has always had quite the knack of being a massive embarrassment to what once a great company but I still wish them success.

Definitely a good shooter for the money, Jeff

Just shouldn’t have been called a P210.