Switching from the 127gr+P+ to the 147gr Ranger for CCW (photos)

[Snowdog]

At the risk of sounding overly apprehensive about the performance of my chosen CCW ammunition, I am considering switching from the turbo-charged super hot 127gr +P+ Rangers (which my K9 can easily handle) that is currently scheduled to replace the 115gr +P+ Gold Dots to the much more mild 147gr Rangers.

I’ve never considered carrying a subsonic in my K9, but this was primarily due to the consistencies in expansion failures that I noticed of various subsonics in many of my own play dough tests (and somewhat verified by the tests of others from online/magazine sources). Just recently, I've found a subsonic that has mild recoil and refuses to plug. Winchester's 147gr Rangers seems to buck 2 layers of denim and expand regardless, while still offering around 16" of relative penetration (in comparison, the 127gr +P+ offered 11" or so in play dough).

I have nothing against the 127gr Rangers, but I intend to put around 200 rounds of carry ammunition through my K9 before switching permanently from my standard G-A 115gr +P+ to something different.
My primary interest in the 127gr Rangers was the increased energy it offered, but the accuracy was a bit less than my current G-A Gold Dots, and the recoil was the most I’ve experienced from the little pistol. Not that I have a problem with recoil mind you, but I do like to enjoy range time.
Long ago, I found my K9 loved the 147gr variety when it comes to accuracy, be it the 147gr HydraShok, 147gr Silvertip or 147gr Golden Saber, but the expansion problems always jinxed them for carry... until now.

So here's the plan, I'm thinking about taking a couple boxes of 147gr Rangers to the range to see if they group as well if not better than the hot 115gr +P+ Gold Dots and if so, possibly switch permanently.
Does anyone see a problem with switching from a proven and solid performer (115gr GD I've carried since '97) that offers snappy recoil, decent accuracy and around 9" of penetration to a subsonic that performs like a black talon, possibly offering better accuracy, milder recoil and penetration almost twice as deep?

Usually I find my own answers and need little along the lines of guidance, but I have little knowledge of the subsonics on the street and wonder about possible liability issues (which I currently feel are generally blown out of proportion). Is there a solid reason not to carry 147gr JHPs if they've overcome any expansion issues?


127gr +P+ Ranger (left), 147gr Ranger and 115gr +P+ Gold Dot after 2 layers of denim from a K9

Same slugs seen from the base, 127gr is at top:

Here's a comparison of expansion between a 5" and 3.5" barrel for posterity, little is lost:

Left to right: 127gr +P+ Ranger from a K9, 147gr Ranger from a PT-99 and 147gr Ranger from a K9, all after denim

 

[1911Tuner]

Expansion

Howdy Snowdog,

I used to know a gal from up in your neck of the mountains.
Made the trip a few times. I'll bet the town has changed a lot since
the late 70s.

Expansion testing can be a tricky business. As long as you go at it with the
understanding that mediums like Play-Doh, wet-pack and even correctly
prepared ballistic gelatin aren't true representations of how the bullet
will perform in living tissue, you can make a judgement call.

The aformentioned mediums are much like testing a hunting rifle from a sandbag rest in that they only provide a comparison between two
different loads under controlled conditions. The testing mediums
reduce or eliminate inconsistencies, and nothing more.

The human body (I assume that you are either a law enforcement officer
or you intend to carry the gun for defensive use) is inconsistent...varying
from soft to hard to elastic to non-elastic tissue (like the liver) that it's
impossible to determine how a bullet will perform under all circumstances and shot placements.

For what it's worth, I'd go with the heavier bullet, ascribing to the theory
that if a light bullet expands every time under all conditions and placements, that it may be fragile enough to expand too easily..and too
early...and fail to penetrate. Frontal, center of mass shots can't be relied on, except in a hollywood movie. If the bullet blows up on a belt buckle
or a bone in the upper arm before it can get into the chest cavity, you
can still be fired on by a wounded, desperate antagonist who is determined
to kill you, regardless of the fact that he's been hit.

One good yardstick would be to back up to a longer distance...say 25
yards...and try the heavier bullet from there. If it still expands pretty
consistently, chances are that it will do well at average engagement distances.

Luck!

Tuner

 

[cratz2]

They both look pretty impressive to me...

I'd go with whichever offered a faster or more consistant double tap. I've found that I can shoot standard pressure 115 and 124 Gr Winchesters faster than 147 Gr... Never shot the 147 Gr Rangers but I'd imagine as hot as the 127 +P+ are that the more mundane (on paper) 147s might allow for a quicker second shot.

Either way, both look very impressive. I was thinking of ordering some just to check out.

 

[TBeck]

Hmmm. I've noticed that my XD likes 124 gr ammo better than 115 gr and my carry load is the 124 gr +P Gold Dot. I've got a box of 147 gr Hydra-Shoks lying around. I'll have to try them out and see how they shoot.

 

[bradvanhorn]

I believe either will do the job just fine. The heavier 9mm (147) has never functioned as reliably in my guns as the lighter 9mm (115, 124, 127), so that's why I stick with the 127gr Ranger. That's just my experience; others have had the exact opposite. Pick whichever one fuctions best in your gun, then forget about the "what ifs".

 

[Serpico]

I carry 147 rangers in my duty and off duty weapon....so does the LAPD, SDSD and LASD...you may have little data but it is more street proven than just about any other round....

 

[Snowdog]

Thanks for the info... seems there's no tacit understanding or unwritten rule why one should avoid subsonics. Perhaps I read so much muck about them from gun rags years ago that it just kinda stuck.

I'm pretty much convinced I'm going to switch out the 127gr Rangers for the 147gr Rangers as soon as I can verify my K9 won't choke on them or send them to some other guy's target.

 

[Sarge111]

Punch a big hole...

deep, and punch it in the right spot. Reapply as necessary.

The 9mm in military loads is not a lightning bolt, but no handgun is. The only thing that was ever wrong with the 115 HP's was that when they worked as designed, they often exhibited less-than-optimum residual penetration. Some of the early 147 HP's expanded only rarely, and when they didn't they might as well have been ball. The later versions like the Ranger seem to have cured these deficiencies. Why not use them?

A reliably-expanding 147 JHP does almost exactly the same thing, at the same velocity, as the old .38/158 LSWCHP +P did. It worked then, and it works now. The 9mm just lets you have 11 to 17 of them, instead of 5 or 6.

The only consistent arguments against the 9/147 are from those who suffer from the delusion that the 'temporary cavity' is a meaningful component of the handgun GSW, as a wounding mechanism. Nothing that I have seen in 27 years of sorting out, and occasionally participating in, human mayhem leads me to believe that it has any relevance whatsoever- except in the sales figures of printed matter.

 

[fastbolt]

I currently carry the 127gr +P+ T-Series, but I'd be perfectly content carrying the 147gr T-Series or Gold Dot. All of them appear to have accumulated some very enviable results in reported L/E shootings.

I was speaking to a fellow from a local agency yesterday, whose agency issues 147gr Gold Dot, and he said his agency has had good reason to be very pleased with their chosen round.

When you get a bunch of firearms instructors gathered in one place, you often find that they aren't nearly as "biased" for, or against, any particular loads within a given caliber ... or regarding calibers, for that matter. Not nearly to the same extent as most non-L/E are often prone to be, after having succumbed to the advertisements and "expert" opinions promoted in gun magazine articles, books, internet debates, etc., etc..

Granted, there's often some friendly rivalry involving "calibers", especially with folks tending to lean toward .40 S&W and .45 ACP ... but not vitriolic or "prejudiced". More good-natured, than anything ...

L/E firearms instructors are often simply interested in whatever is going to get the job done "the best", and under the widest range of commonly encountered bad circumstances, including potential intermediate barriers ... and for the widest spectrum of L/E weapon "users", which can sometimes tip the decision one way for one group of folks, and then another way for another group.

I've stood in a group of fellow instructors that were just as interested, and complimentary, about one of the latest 9mm load's performance in various gelatin tests, as they were about the performance of a personally favored .45 ACP load. If it "works well", it works well ... and that's what ultimately interests most knowledgeable instructors. We're not selling and pitching ammunition companies and bullet brands to each other, or to our people who may ultimately have to stake their lives on the performance of whatever ammunition we've helped select for our various agencies.

I watched a pair of 147gr T-Series rounds fired into some 10% calibrated gel yesterday, in Bare Gel & 4-Layer denim test scenarios. Very limited testing, with only 2 rounds fired, but interesting, nonetheless ...

Bare Gel- 1215fps/12"/.546/134.3gr ret wgt
Denim- 1018fps/11.25"/.624/148.5gr

This was very similar to what the same type of load did in testing we hosted previously.

The 115gr +P+ "standard L/E" JHP load:

Bare Gel-1368fps/9.25"/.524/74.7gr
Denim- 1397fps/10.5"/.639/111.0gr

Both the RA9T 147gr and the 115gr +P+ loads through laminated Auto glass:

147gr- 1014fps/7.0"/.552/106.6gr
115gr- 1387fps/6.75"/.667/87.4gr

The "differences" are staggering, aren't they?

I'd go for functionality & reliability ... and recoil management & controllability ... and accuracy ... in YOUR weapon ... and if you end up selecting a standard pressure 147gr load that meets YOUR perceived needs, and thereby gaining the benefit of reduced wear & tear on your weapon, that's nice too ...

 

[artherd]

Both are fine rounds.

I carry the 127gr +p+ in my 5" barrel Glock 34.

I have some of the 147gr subsonics as well, just to see how they're different.

I think I can actually control the 127s better, so I bought a case.


Between the three, carry what you know will work, and what you shoot well. Any of those 3 will work equally well on stoping a BG.

 

[only1asterisk]

I'm with artherd.

Pick one. I used the Ranger 127 grainers for several years. They shot better in my carry gun than some of the other acceptable choices.


David

 

[WonderNine]

I prefer the 127gr. +P+ round. They're closest to the original 124gr. spec for 9mm ammo (only a little hotter) and they seem to work the smoothest of any round I've ever seen in a 9mm auto. Their penetration in gelatin and real life scenarios is not quite as good as I would expect, but it is better than the 115gr. +P+ or standard pressure 147gr. Rangers.

 

[clubsoda22]

I use the ranger 127's for my 9's. They really rip, the open up fast and wide and penetrate rather deep for a 9mm of that weight.

 

[Island Beretta]

Go with what YOU have CONFIDENCE in.. that is what gives you the comfort and allows you to execute your TRAINING WITHOUT HESITANCY AND DOUBT!!

..I know several people who swears by round-nose ammo and they shoot well with it and some have defended themselves effectively with them..

As TGO said (and I concur), he has come to learn that you could have the greatest equipment in the world and it wouldn't mean a thing if you cannot hit your target when you need to..

 

[heysox]

When I was active in law enforcement, the Baltimore Police Department used the Winchester 147g SXT (non Ranger) out of a Glock 17. Since gone to the Glock 22 and Ranger 180g. I had the opportunity to participate in 19 officer involved shooting investigations with the 147g. No firearm malfunctions. No over penetration and solid torso hits did what they needed to do. By all accounts, the Ranger-T is a better round than the SXT. I would feel very comfy carrying it if I was hauling a 9mm around.