T/C Renegade Rifle
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ThomasT
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Looks good and a really great price.
TC never advertised the Renegade as a Hawken but more as a plains rifle. They already had what they called a Hawken. I think that is the one people have a problem with. I mean, if you're gonna call a gun a Hawken, at least you can make it look like one. It would have been so easy to make a correct looking trigger guard, use steel hardware, and two underlugs. The only thing it had in common with a Hawken was it was a half stock percussion rifle. It's like calling a Ruger Old Army a Remington NMA. It ain't so and that's what bothers " purist ". When I first started in muzzleloading it was with a CVA two piece kit gun. What a piece of crap. The rifling in the barrel was so ruff it couldn't be cleaned and wouldn't shoot a group. Then TC came out with their Hawken. Man, thought I died and went to heaven. That was back in the 70's. A couple of years latter I browned the barrel, replaced the brass with iron and reshaped the fore-end. There should be no little flats along side the barrel. By reshaping the wood it allows a more rounded fore stock like a original should be without flat sides. Then a Bill Large barrel with non adjustable sights. Yes, it is a shame TC quit making hammer guns. Maybe the Hawken wasn't historically correct, but they and the Renegade did shoot good. And, CVA came a long ways. A pretty good gun now. It's like me when I shoot in a " Trade Gun Match " - flint, no rear sight, smoothbore. I don't shoot what everyone calls a Trade Gun [ 20ga] like the Hudson Bay Co sold back in the day, but as I call it, a New England Fowler - 12ga smoothbore flintlock with no rear sight. I call it by the right name, but it meets the requirements to shoot. Even though I make my own guns and try to keep them historically correct, I don't bad mouth production guns. Not everyone has the equipment or the help I had in the beginning to build guns. I like em all and the Renegade is a fine looking and shooting gun. I gave my granddaughter one. She can wait till I'm dead and gone to grab one of my homemade ones.
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Kaeto
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If they have the same width flats they are. But I don't think the Hawken has 1" flats like the Renegade.
Loyalist Dave
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The Renegade was the "plain Jane" version of the TC Hawken. Nothing wrong with them, and don't let us .54 shooters mess with ya..., .490 round ball with a patch is plenty when it comes to taking deer. Sure you'll hear about, and be tempted to launch, conical bullets from 240 grain up to 375 grain, with whopping large loads of 100 grains or more. Resist that, and look at a .490 ball and 70-90 grains of 3Fg (yes three Fg).
The deer won't be any deader, accuracy won't suffer (probably will be better) and your shoulder won't be punished either. LD
Loyalist Dave
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It's just a historic-cosmetic complaint. A bent piece of iron, held in by nails will suffice, so it's not functionality, eh?
LD
I bought one of the first way back when they first came out. Jerry's guns shop in a Chicago suburb. Went through a dozen boxes and picked the one with the best wood. 54 cal and it shot to point of aim with both Maxi balls and round balls. Maxis were heavy, 440 grains. Got talked out of it a year or two and one deer later. Traded for a .58 cal some time later, never happy with it. Have a 56 smoothbore with added Briley chokes (which I've never used and have on consignment at a local shop) and a .50 that I put together from parts I gathered on ebay. Had to do some lapping on the barrel but it shoots fine now. Renegades had better target sights than the "Hawken" which was funny as it is a hunting rifle. I take mine out twice a year now, once to verify zero and once during our ml season. .495 round ball, linen patch and 90 grains of ffg.
I cringed when TC brought out the "Hawken" as most of us had tried, with varying degrees of success, to build good replicas of the original. A friend, Jerry Noble, had a minty original he allowed us to measure. The Renegade was a somewhat more traditional rifle, albeit with adjustable sight and hokey trigger guard . I preferred it. The Hawken did get a lot of folks hunting and shooting in a fairly traditional way. I prefer anything to inlines but to each his own.
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ThomasT
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There is nothing in the looks of the Renegade that is "historic" unless viewed in the context of the plains rifles used after the mountain man era as mentioned in the video I posted on the first page. A Hawken rifle is nice but its not the final word on rifles from that time period. There were other rifles used in the mountains and I bet a lot of them came west with the men who owned and used them in the east. Any larger bore rifle would have served as well as a Hawken would have. Lewis & Clark carried 1803 Springfield rifles that were half stock and flintlock fired in .54 caliber. I have always liked the look of the 1841 Mississippi rifle also in .54 caliber. I am guessing those pioneers, explorers and gold field seekers used whatever rifles they could scrounge up and had confidence in.
No Indian ever jumped up from behind a rock and said "hey you can't shoot me with that, the trigger guard is all wrong". And if they did. I wouldn't shoot him. Thats for sure.
Ratshooter, all I said, and others, if you're going to say something is a replica, then make it a replica. Pietta and Uberita do it with their revolvers other than the 36's being a bit larger than they should. A 1803 Springfield and 1841 Mississippi rifle have certain characteristics that make em what they are. If you want to shoot in the NSSA, then you better have a rifle, or replica of one, used in the civil war. So, if you're going to call a replica a Hawken, then please make it look like one. And, the trigger guard of a Hawken is part of the design characteristic of the rifle that make it what it is. I'm sorry if you want to act like what the trigger guard looks like has nothing to do with characteristic of a Hawken, but it has everything to do with it. And, no has said they were the final word on rifles of that day. No one said other rifles weren't used. No one said the Indians gave a good crap what rifle a white man had. What is being said is if you're going to call a gun a certain replica, then damn it, make it look like one. Can you understand that ? I think you've been misunderstanding what some of us have been trying to convey. I don't have anything against the horse you rode in on.
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ThomasT
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Well Paul, I never called a Renegade a Hawken. Maybe others did but not me. So hell yeah I can understand that. And my above post with the Indian was a tounge in cheek joke. Sorry you didn't get it. And there are plenty of threads on the Pietta revolvers not being as accurate as they could be. The Ubertis must be better but still not perfect. I have no idea how close or far off the mark they are as I don't own any except the brass frame gun I was just given.
And yes TC should have never called their rifle a "Hawken". but it was name recognition after the movie Jeremiah Johnson made such a big deal about Hawken rifles. Everyone wanted their own "Hawken". And I am very well aware of the differences. But I don't know of anyone who called the Renegade a Hawken but you. Lyman did it better by calling it a Plains Rifle. A good generic name that doesn't try to brand their rifle as a genuine hawken. And I am sure you can pick that gun apart too.
Its obvious you are a Pefectionists when it comes to BP rifles and pistols. Good for you. Some of us are not all that worried about the small details. And with a real honest to God Hawken weighing 10+ pounds I really don't think I would want to tote one around all day like I did when I shot my first Elk high up on a mountain with an 8 pound BP rifle. A cabelas Hawken by the way.
I will agree the Hawken name is thrown around way too much. For some when you say you have a hawken BP rifle most would guess you have one of the half stock BP rifles that follow the basic hawken lines without thinking you have a screw for screw replica of a real Hawken rifle. Most get that.
And leave my horse alone. Ride the High Horse you seem to be on.
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ThomasT
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There ya go PapaG. The TC Hawken got others shooting that may have never tried BP any other way. Great post written with insight.
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I'm sorry this turned into a pissing match, it isn't what I wanted. Guess I came off a little harsh and didn't intend to, my apologies. I'm not a perfectionist, but it's ok to call me one. I've been called a lot worst. And if you reread my post #30, you'll see what I was trying to say was that if TC was going to call one of their guns a Hawken, it should have been the Renegade because it looked more like a Hawken than the one they called a Hawken. I wasn't trying to pick any gun apart. I just pointed out how TC could have made a Hawken replica just as easy as what they did make. I owned two of them for years, sold one and gave the other to my nephew. I have nothing against them. The Lyman gun is just great. Other than a adjustable sight [ and I'm not picking it apart ] it's about as good as anybody has manufactured a Hawken rifle. TC could have done the same thing. If you were going to a rendezvous and everything has to be period correct [ perfectionist ] a Lyman rifle would be perfect with non adjustable sight installed. I was leaving your horse alone, as I said, "I have nothing against it " - well, other than being sooo much shorter than my high horse .
] a Lyman rifle would be perfect with non adjustable sight installed. I was leaving your horse alone, as I said, "I have nothing against it " - well, other than being sooo much shorter than my high horse .Jackrabbit1957
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Hey Paul, you survived 51 years with the same woman. You gotta be doin something right!
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ThomasT
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Hi Paul. No problems here. I do know that the TC guns are not very accurate as far as replicas go. But that’s no matter to me because I wasn’t looking for a replica. I have a Lyman GP rifle and that suits me OK. I don’t think there are even any rendezvous anywhere around me and I probably wouldn’t go if there were since I n o longer have the clothing to fit in.
That’s why I posted the video with Mike Beleviews opinion on where most of the modern mislabeled Hawkins fit in. To me the Renegade is a somewhat lighter, shorter muzzleloading hunting gun without a pedigree of any sort. That’s all I expect out of it.
So once again no problems. I respect your opinion on BP guns.
That’s why I posted the video with Mike Beleviews opinion on where most of the modern mislabeled Hawkins fit in. To me the Renegade is a somewhat lighter, shorter muzzleloading hunting gun without a pedigree of any sort. That’s all I expect out of it.
So once again no problems. I respect your opinion on BP guns.
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ThomasT
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One other thing about the TC rifles is most likely thay were made to a price point so that new BP shooters could afford to give muzzleloading a try. The Renegade was sold at an even better price point. I am certain TC knew their rifles were not historically correct. But they had enough eye appeal with the shiny brass bling to intice folks to buy them. Job accomplished.
Could TC have made really close replicas? Sure they could. At a much higher price point. The funny thing is that there are far and away many more copies of the TC Hawken copies than copies of the actual J&S Hawkins.
The ones who found the new way to shoot and liked it went on to build or buy more historically correct guns. Those that didn’t like the primitive guns now sell them on auction sights like where my newest gun came from. But for many the TC rifles for all their historically incorrect features were gateway rifles that led to the darker side. Even to flintlocks.
Could TC have made really close replicas? Sure they could. At a much higher price point. The funny thing is that there are far and away many more copies of the TC Hawken copies than copies of the actual J&S Hawkins.
The ones who found the new way to shoot and liked it went on to build or buy more historically correct guns. Those that didn’t like the primitive guns now sell them on auction sights like where my newest gun came from. But for many the TC rifles for all their historically incorrect features were gateway rifles that led to the darker side. Even to flintlocks.
darkcloud
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It is a replica. It is not an exact replica of anything in particular. It replicates some features of guns of the era when muzzle loaders were king. It has done it's job and gotten folks interest in front stuffer black powder guns. It is solid and shoots well. It functions and shoots as a traditional muzzle loader. I think it is a cool looking rifle.
personally I pick performance over purist every time... purists need to shut up- they are not the only folk who enjoy shooting BP... I happen to like using modern TP even though it is not historically correct to the past... I love a ruger old army and several BP revolvers that never existed and my inlines Unless you are in a thread about historically correct or at an event that is to be historically correct your purist bs does not matter at all! and this post was and is about the renegade! it is a GREAT percussion sidelock!
Unless you are in a thread about historically correct or at an event that is to be historically correct your purist bs does not matter at all! and this post was and is about the renegade! it is a GREAT percussion sidelock!Wow, someone pulled your chain. 
I guess what you're saying is " you can't post on here if you're a purist because anything purist is BS." On post 30 I said how nice a Renegade was. Sorry you got so offended - go take a cold shower, you'll feel better. 
I guess what you're saying is " you can't post on here if you're a purist because anything purist is BS." On post 30 I said how nice a Renegade was. Sorry you got so offended - go take a cold shower, you'll feel better. it just gets old when someone posts about a gun like the t/c renegade , t/c hawken or ruger old army and some purist whines how un authentic they are... and no one not even the manufacturer ever claimed that they were... so get all whiny that someone has the gall to tell a purist to just keep walking...Wow, someone pulled your chain.
Ironhand54
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The nice thing about a discussion group is that it encourages discussion. Telling people to shut up does not. Live and let live.
IronHand
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