Tactics And A Perspective On OC

[Good Ol' Boy]

You know what gets me... whenever I make a mistake, I feel the need to apologize. lol I will sometimes let off the brake when the turning lane gets the green light while my light is still red and I will feel like an idiot and wave at the car behind me to apologize. Nearly every mistake I make, I feel like I should apologize. I can't imagine being one of these idiots that always race to the next red light and are switching lanes constantly to get that one car length ahead.... that is a sad way to live. lol

Normally I'm the same way.

But as I mentioned this situation was a case of A-holes colliding. I was just in a not great mood when this took place.

There are certain times where, like the saying goes, apologizing can be a sign of weakness.

Although in my situation it might have been the simplest solution at the time.

 

[WrongHanded]

Tactics and a perspective on tailgaters and road rage:

Slow down, pull over, wave them by. Why would you want an A-hole behind you, when you could get them out of your life quickly, simply by letting them pass?

Tactics and a perspective on dealing with confrontational loud mouthed A-holes:

The less said, the better. They'll run out of words soon enough, and storm off in a rage. The more you say, the more they can twist your words, make it sound like you're insulting them, and escalate the situation. They don't care about what you have to say, so there's no point saying any more than absolutely necessary.

 

[armydog]

Normally I'm the same way.

But as I mentioned this situation was a case of A-holes colliding. I was just in a not great mood when this took place.

There are certain times where, like the saying goes, apologizing can be a sign of weakness.

Although in my situation it might have been the simplest solution at the time.

But you don't sound like you were the aggressor. Those types live to infuriate themselves. I anticipate people turning or slowing down without using their signals. Mainly cause it happens all the time. I expect people to drive like they are distracted or just lazy. I am grateful if people can just stay in their lane, especially on curves... these days it seems like everyone is driving all over the road in the oncoming lane and the closer you get, then they will finally pay attention. I don't ride anyone's bumper in anger either. lol The other guy sounded like the typical guy that goes out of his way to piss himself off all day long.

 

[redcon1]

Care to expand?

I tend to see it as the opposite, it might have just saved his life.

I knew he was carrying and he did not know I was.

I was, and am, confident I could have drawn and put shots on target before he could have, given the situation.

Because you saw the gun and wisely deescalated the situation. Had you not seen the gun, that situation could have gone any number of different ways that wouldn't have ended with you going home. You both got out of your cars. That's called mutual combat. Different states view mutual combat differently but, generally, it complicates your legal defense and likely makes it an unwinnable defense. If you killed him, your life would have been over as surely as his I think. It's a good story though IMO and worth discussing and contemplating.
I have been in a similar situation. I was carrying a J frame .357 concealed. I didn't know if they were carrying but I knew there were two of them and one of me and they were having words with me over their perception that I had cut in front of them in line at a shoe store of all places. This was back when the pandemic first started and everybody was supposed to stand 6 feet apart on the little dots as they checked out. I wasn't able to both stand 6 feet apart and on the dot and this stupid little dot on the floor almost led to two young heavily tattooed billy badaxes following me out into the parking lot. Had they done so, I would have almost certainly pulled that .357 and if I pulled it out, I would have shot at least one of them and then I would have ended up in court having to explain to a jury how I killed one or two men over a dot on the floor. I saw how bad this could end up and deescalated that situation and it was pretty tense. I mean, the store was full of people and words were being openly exchanged and individuals in the crowd were involving themselves in the matter. It would have been bad. I ultimately looked at both of these guys and told them in front of a dozen witnesses and on the store's camera "look, I'm trying to walk away here but you're the ones not letting this go". I think maybe the hint was taken as they didn't follow me out the door although they continued their verbal assault. I think maybe it would have been a lot less drama if I was just openly carrying a full sized Glock that day.
So, you're saying that by seeing the gun, you deescalated the conflict. From my perspective, that is what allowed everyone to go home that day. I prefer concealed carry but, at the same time, I understand the old saying "a well armed society is a polite society". People are less likely to escalate a situation if they know that it's going to lead to someone getting shot. Again, I prefer concealed carry but I can't deny that there is a reasonableness to open carrying instead.

 

[Good Ol' Boy]

But you don't sound like you were the aggressor. Those types live to infuriate themselves. I anticipate people turning or slowing down without using their signals. Mainly cause it happens all the time. I expect people to drive like they are distracted or just lazy. I am grateful if people can just stay in their lane, especially on curves... these days it seems like everyone is driving all over the road in the oncoming lane and the closer you get, then they will finally pay attention. I don't ride anyone's bumper in anger either. lol The other guy sounded like the typical guy that goes out of his way to piss himself off all day long.

He was certainly the initial aggressor while we were on the road. But when I purposely negated to use my signal to turn into my drive I became part of the problem.

I get what you're saying but what I did was essentially "egging on" the aggressor.

I too normally drive defensively and expect no signals and random stuff, but I don't normally contribute to it.

 

[Good Ol' Boy]

Because you saw the gun and wisely deescalated the situation. Had you not seen the gun, that situation could have gone any number of different ways that wouldn't have ended with you going home. You both got out of your cars. That's called mutual combat. Different states view mutual combat differently but, generally, it complicates your legal defense and likely makes it an unwinnable defense. If you killed him, your life would have been over as surely as his I think. It's a good story though IMO and worth discussing and contemplating.
I have been in a similar situation. I was carrying a J frame .357 concealed. I didn't know if they were carrying but I knew there were two of them and one of me and they were having words with me over their perception that I had cut in front of them in line at a shoe store of all places. This was back when the pandemic first started and everybody was supposed to stand 6 feet apart on the little dots as they checked out. I wasn't able to both stand 6 feet apart and on the dot and this stupid little dot on the floor almost led to two young heavily tattooed billy badaxes following me out into the parking lot. Had they done so, I would have almost certainly pulled that .357 and if I pulled it out, I would have shot at least one of them and then I would have ended up in court having to explain to a jury how I killed one or two men over a dot on the floor. I saw how bad this could end up and deescalated that situation and it was pretty tense. I mean, the store was full of people and words were being openly exchanged and individuals in the crowd were involving themselves in the matter. It would have been bad. I ultimately looked at both of these guys and told them in front of a dozen witnesses and on the store's camera "look, I'm trying to walk away here but you're the ones not letting this go". I think maybe the hint was taken as they didn't follow me out the door although they continued their verbal assault. I think maybe it would have been a lot less drama if I was just openly carrying a full sized Glock that day.
So, you're saying that by seeing the gun, you deescalated the conflict. From my perspective, that is what allowed everyone to go home that day. I prefer concealed carry but, at the same time, I understand the old saying "a well armed society is a polite society". People are less likely to escalate a situation if they know that it's going to lead to someone getting shot. Again, I prefer concealed carry but I can't deny that there is a reasonableness to open carrying instead.

While thats a worthwhile reply, I don't neccesarily agree with it all.

Jerry Miculek had a video on CC vs OC and one of the things he mentioned was when OC no one knows your intentions. I don't really adhere to the "an armed society is a polite society" notion. Maybe waaay back in the day that was a thing, I don't know, I wasn't there.

But in 2022 I don't buy that by a long shot. I'm not against it by any means, I'm 110% 2A. If you want to OC an AR everywhere you go IMO that should be fine. But you should be aware that other folks don't know your intentions. So an otherwise insignificant interaction where normally words might be had and folks move on could potentially get elevated.

I wasn't intimidated by him OC I was just immediately aware. He showed his cards right off the bat. I run across folks OC regularly in my AO so I'm pretty used to it. Plus, being a competitive shooter I'm generally pretty comfortable being around a bunch of strangers with guns. But in either of the aforementioned instances I've never had any serious confrontation.

Then there's the advantage of surprise that comes with CC. Thats just one part of the "tactics" part of this thread. Then there's the gear thing, but I feel like I'm going off on a tangent.

 

[redcon1]

While thats a worthwhile reply I don't neccesarily agree with it all.

Jerry Miculek had a video on CC vs OC and one of the things he mentioned was when OC no one knows your intentions. I don't really adhere to the "an armed society is a polite society" notion. Maybe waaay back in the day that was a thing, I don't know, I wasn't there.

But in 2022 I don't buy that by a long shot. I'm not against it by any means, I'm 110% 2A. If you want to OC an AR everywhere you go IMO that should be fine. But you should be aware that other folks don't know your intentions. So an otherwise insignificant interaction where normally words might be had and folks move on could potentially get elevated.

Then there's the advantage of surprise that comes with CC. Thats just one part of the "tactics" part of this thread. Then there's the gear thing, but I feel like I'm going off on a tangent.

Like I said, I prefer CC and pretty much for the reasons you stated but I think open carry has it's place. I know I'm not going to mess with the guy openly carrying a revolver on his hip which I saw recently as I walked into a local jewelry store to get some knives engraved for Christmas. It definitely got my attention immediately and you're right, it took a few seconds for me to ascertain his intentions. When he walked into the jewelry store right in front of me, I was pretty confident that he was employed there and that every other employee in that store was likely packing as this store wasn't in the best part of town and that isn't an uncommon thing in the local jewelry stores.
Our state law allows us to walk down the street with an AR15 openly carried. Or a handgun on the hip if preferred. I don't do that but I want that law on the books in case the day ever comes that I feel like my safety is best maintained by walking down the street with my AR15 carried openly. Of course my state law won't allow me to carry that same rifle loaded in my vehicle and I'd like to see that law repealed for the same reason. And then there's the issue of "printing". Open carry laws pretty much make "printing" a non-issue as it should be.
Maybe that was your guy's thing. There are any number of different reasons why he may have been openly carrying. I can't judge him one way or the other for doing it. If it was legal, it was legal. Neither of you should have gotten out of that car but you showed good judgement in deescalating the situation. When I was in the similar situation I described, I just had to stand there and take some pretty serious verbal abuse. I certainly wasn't going to play tit for tat with those dudes.
Bottom line, I am 110% in favor of open carry but I just like to see that right exercised responsibly.

 

[Good Ol' Boy]

know I'm not going to mess with the guy openly carrying a revolver on his hip

This is I think is at the heart of the conversation, really. The intimidation that has already been mentioned.

I can't speak for you, but if there's a possible SD situation, I don't care if its an un armed guy twice my size or someone OC a gun, I will respond appropriately based on the necessity.

 

[luzyfuerza]

I'll never forget the first time that I walked into a bank with a legally-concealed handgun and a mostly-empty backpack. I realized that the ONLY difference between me and a bank robber was my intent.


Concealing hardware is one thing. Concealing intentions is another. The two CAN go hand-in-hand, however.


One Sunday morning a few months ago, I saw a couple of fellows trying to remove a piece of heavy equipment from my property using a forklift. One I recognized as a neighbor who had previously expressed an interest in the equipment. We had a calm, rational discussion. No rough language was used. I did explain how good neighbors actually call each other up if they want something that they know belongs to someone else.

At one point, his guilt oozing out, my neighbor said this: "I'm kind of surprised that you didn't come out here shooting." I put the best

... blank look on my face for when I have eye contact with these people...

and didn't respond to that statement in any way. I wasn't armed, but he didn't know that. Nor could he be sure that he could discern my intent.


Hiding intent is just as valuable, I think, as hiding hardware.

 

[Kleanbore]

He was certainly the initial aggressor while we were on the road.

"Initial aggressor?" "Riding your bumper?" "Trying to drive around you?"

Come now!

 

[Good Ol' Boy]

"Initial aggressor?" "Riding your bumper?" "Trying to drive around you?"

Come now!

My sarcasm meter never works when reading your posts.

Are you being serious?

 

[Kleanbore]

Are you being serious?

Were you?

 

[Good Ol' Boy]

Yes.

 

[Kleanbore]

GOB, if you think for one moment that having someone ride your bumper and try to drive around you in a car would make him the initial aggressor in a use of force encounter, you have more to learn than I can imagine.

 

[Blue Jays]

@Good Ol' Boy, you mentioned in your original post that you live way out "in the sticks" and this event occurred on a rural road in the final quarter-mile before your driveway.

I think you were correct in assessing that behavior exhibited by the other driver to be somewhat more "intensive" than if the same tailgating had been done on an interstate highway or even a county road.

 

[1942bull]

I just tuned into this thread. Hats off to the OP for navigating to a successful outcome. The OP did not make a mistake. He exercised his best judgement indicating that he kept his wits about him, which is the critical factor in such a situation. He gave the perp a psychological victory and that eliminated an aggressive showdown. That’s a cool head at work. Outcome was excellent. I can tell you this from combat experience. You stay alive by keeping your cool and reacting according the the threat not the perceived threat. The OP was ready to act if need be. He did not overreact. He won. Now for all those w he have ideas that they would have done it better I say this. Monday morning quarterbacks only get to play after the game is over. Once you play a real high stakes game you realize that an after thought is a luxury because you survived.

 

[Hartkopf]

The initial problem, on the road, could have been quickly resolved with 3 simple rules of the road.

LEAD, FOLLOW or GET OUT OF THE WAY.

OP, you’ve already admitted your mistake so I’m not trying to beat a dead horse. But, I’ve been the guy in a big hurry before (one emergency) and I just needed people to give me a small opening, in any way, so I could pass. If I’m being tailgated, I just get out of the way for people to save us both frustration.

I’m glad it turned out ok in the end and thanks for sharing. It’s been a good reminder to keep our cool because it’s easy to screw up if we lose focus. Especially while carrying, while driving.

 

[bdickens]

GOB, if you think for one moment that having someone ride your bumper and try to drive around you in a car would make him the initial aggressor in a use of force encounter, you have more to learn than I can imagine.

Are you flipping kidding?

You have any idea how many people end up injured or worse from getting rear-ended?

Tailgating and road raging is 100% aggressive.

 

[Howland937]

Is someone driving in an aggressive, unsafe manner not as much a risk to life and limb as a person coming toward you with a weapon in hand? It seems an almost daily occurrence that road rage has led to shots being fired.

I understand that jumping out of the vehicle could be considered as escalating the situation, but is there a point at which dangerous/threatening behavior is written off as NBD since everyone was in a vehicle? Not that any of that has anything to do with open carry...just curious.

 

[WrongHanded]

Is someone driving in an aggressive, unsafe manner not as much a risk to life and limb as a person coming toward you with a weapon in hand? It seems an almost daily occurrence that road rage has led to shots being fired.

I understand that jumping out of the vehicle could be considered as escalating the situation, but is there a point at which dangerous/threatening behavior is written off as NBD since everyone was in a vehicle? Not that any of that has anything to do with open carry...just curious.

Dangerous driving can certainly be a threat to life. Particularly if that driving were purposeful, with intent to harm. That's criminal. But once the vehicles have stopped, that threat is gone.

 

[Kleanbore]

Tailgating and road raging is 100% aggressive.

Well, yeah, "aggressive" in the vernacular, but it does not define an initial aggressor in the context of use of force.

Dangerous driving can certainly be a threat to life. Particularly if that driving were purposeful, with intent to harm. That's criminal. But once the vehicles have stopped, that threat is gone.

Yes indeed, but the threat or use of deadly force will very rarely be seen as a reasonable defensive response, and would therefore not meet the requirements of lawful self defense.

 

[Blue Jays]

Much of what @Good Ol' Boy experienced hinges upon the context and location of where it occurred.

Were it an interstate highway, the roadrage driver likely would have angrily accelerated to the next driver, and the next, and the next, and the next after that…perhaps until he was stopped by State Police. It would not have been direct/personal in nature. Just a seething angry dude on the highway.

Tailgating a specific person, on a desolate road out "in the sticks" makes it more unusual. In the story related by GOB…the tailgating driver narrowly missed him, did not cause any property damage, and could have used that fortunate opportunity to keep on moving down the road. As an armed person, that is precisely what the tailgater should have done.

Plenty of folks have clobbered GOB and he has accepted the genuine constructive criticism with flying colors. My sense is that by unnecessarily exiting his vehicle, practically in a person's driveway, the armed tailgater was behaving in a very aggressive manner. The tailgater had plenty of other options.

 

[Kleanbore]

My sense is that by unnecessarily exiting his vehicle, practically in a person's driveway, the armed tailgater was behaving in a very aggressive manner.

There are many ways in which one can behave in a "very aggressive manner" without becoming an initial aggressor in the context of use of force law.

 

[Blue Jays]

@Kleanbore, my sense is the open-carrying tailgater should have made the wiser decision to get a hold of his wits, manage his anger, and keep moving down the road. He knew he was armed while being aggressive.

He certainly caused increased pulse rates, yet there was no collision and no property damage. The tailgater could likely also guess he was at the other guy's (GOB) family residence. That was his sweet opportunity to quickly "count his lucky stars" and depart. Heck, he would be wise avoid that particular road for a whole year.

To a person, the people in my life who are armed are the ones who are the most reasonable and kind. That is my experience with armed folks. When a person is crazed, seeks conflict, and is armed…that is concerning!

EDIT TO ADD: corrected spelling error…collision, not collusion!

 

[Kleanbore]

my sense is the open-carrying tailgater should have made the wiser decision to get a hold of his wits, manage his anger, and keep moving down the road. He knew he was armed while being aggressive.

Still wiser: do not tailgate.