Taking a non-citizen shooting is illegal!

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I had an idea to take my Indian and Bangladeshi co-workers to the range for a little recreational shooting. It occurred to me that ATF regs say something about non-citizens and possession of a firearm.

I looked it up, still wasn't sure, called ATF in Chicago and talked to an agent. He wasn't sure and put me on with an ATF attorney. The attorney confirmed this:

If I take a non-immigrant alien* to the range, the minute I hand over a gun, a crime has been committed.

* A non-immigrant alien is someone here as a student, a tourist or on a temporary work visa, like an H1B. A permanent legal resident (an alien with a "green card") may legally possess a gun.

The ATF attorney cited 18 USC 922. He insisted that simply handling the gun constituted possession.

Anyway, the ATF attorney only cited federal law. My only question to him was how "possession" was interpreted. He suggested that it was interpreted very broadly.

Heck, he said that driving a car with a firearm in it constituted "constructive possession."

Oops. I've been letting my H1B co-worker drive me home so she could practice for her driver's license exam. She doesn't know what's in the trunk.

There is an exception for a nonimmigrant alien with a valid hunting license, but it seems like a lot of work and expense to get a deer tag to be able to go to the range!

I'm disgusted, of course, but thought I'd pass along what I've learned.

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DISCLAIMER: I sure as heck ain't a lawyer. Don't take my legal advice about anything.
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IMHO this is simply incorrect... either way what a local field office has to say does not hold much weight... you need a WRITTEN opinion from ATF in DC... using this logic it would be illegal for you to shoot a full-auto weapon that was not registered to you (such as a rental gun).... etc....
 
The ATF lawyer is talking through his hat. If "handling" the gun constitutes "possession", then anyone handling a gun in a gunshop, just looking at it prior to making a decision as to whether or not to buy it, already "possesses" that gun. If I told my local dealer that I already "possessed" his stock, he'd have a few well-chosen phrases handy to assure me that I was wrong! :D
 
If this were the case then your FFL would have to run your paperwork before he even let you handle the weapon you were buying, and range rentals would require the yellow form.
 
I was on a jury deciding a drug possesion case. The defendant was a 'runner' taking crack to the customer and taking the payment back to the seller. The crack was never legaly (de facto) his. But, under the law (de jure) he had possesion.

Another example is a rental house. The lessor is the de facto owner. The lessee is the de jure owner. Lessor is 'in fact' the owner: Has actual title, pays the taxes, etc. The lessee is 'under the law' the owner: Occupies the appartment, responsible for upkeep, etc.

The ATF told the truth. :eek:

Kinda makes sense. The non-immigrant alien won't be here long enough to qualify as an immigrant and gain full constitutional rights.
 
Well it appears that our government has again created a nice "gray area" where they can use the law as they see fit.

I took some Japanese friends to the range one time. First time they ever SAW a real handgun. I checked with the range first to see what was required, and they said all they would need was a valid passport to allow them to shoot there.

Not the same as an ATF approval of course, but it was good enough for me. It showed that my intent was to fully comply with the law at least. Removes one of the three elements to proving a crime - means, motive and intent.

And I obviously had no ill intent.

Now...the "means" part..... :evil:
 
Preacherman, I think you have confused the differences of possession as in ownership with possession and in control of an item. It is the latter that pertains to the legal mumbo jumbo above. If it is in the guy's hands, as noted, he is most definitely in possession of it.
 
Justin - ya' beat me to it. There is a gunrange in downtown Honolulu which caters to the Japanese. Rental prices are pretty steep.

Its in the mall and right next to a Honolulu police substation.
 
I think I've taken a few aliens shooting. Some seem to be more pro-America than some citizens. Kind of like how some single guys seem to do more for the women than some married guys do :D
 
Oleg asked me to look into this. I did and have concluded (thus far) that it is pretty gray.

Some things are clear:
1) It is not a problem if they have an immigrant visa.
2) It is not a problem if the one loaning the gun is an FFL (such as a rental situation or if you have a C&R FFL).
3) It is not a problem if they have a hunting license.
4) It is clearly a problem if they are here illegally.
5) Possessing ammunition is treated the same as a firearm.
6) There are separate parts of the statute that appy to the loaner and the borrower.

Some less clear situations are if the purpose of their visit is to participate in shooting with a "sporting purpose."

Number 2 is probably the easiest exception to take advantage of, but it means going to a range where you pay to rent a gun. The idea of taking your own gun and ammo out to a range or private land to share some American culture with a visitor is a big question mark.

I would like to discuss this with other attorneys, if possible, and to get an interpretation from more than one ATF office (an agent in NJ or IL may have a different interpretation than one in TX). To get an official opinion from ATF may be hard and it is always easier for them to just say "don't do it" so that it doesn't come back to haunt them.
 
WOW! :what:
So I've both broken the law AND induced my friends in Vermont, Texas, and Utah to break the law?

All my shooting in the States has been on privately owned land (Vermont and Texas) or on public lands (Utah). At least, the locals in Utah said shooting there was no problem. :D

My friends supplied the rifles and handguns, and I bought the ammunition.
Did I break the law by buying the ammo???


I'd LOVE to hear something definitive on this, before I lead my buddies into another 'occasion of sin.'
 
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"Nor shall any State ... deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws." Fourteenth Amendment. No mention in that clause of citizenship or legal residence. Since citizenship is mentioned in some other clauses of the Fourteenth, equal protection should appiy to all persons.

In Graham v. Richardson (1971) the Supreme Court held that alienage was a suspect classification, and that laws discriminating on that basis should be subject to strict scrutiny. That doesn't mean they are automatically invalid, but they need substantial reasons to exist. Restrictions on owning land and on government jobs have been upheld.
 
Matt what I would recomend is have them go down to Gander Mountain and get a small game license. Here in WI they cost around $8. I doubt the law says what type of hunting license they have to have to legally possess a firearm. The only holdup for that would be if they need to take hunters safety to be elegible for a hunting license.
 
Gee, we have non-U.S. citizens in the military ...

And I've even issued some of 'em guns to shoot ... which they have ...
 
Here are the relevant parts of the statute. I have also included the revised "gun-free school zone" statute to show how Congress defines interstate commerce.

18 USCS § 922 (2005)
§ 922. Unlawful acts

* * *

(b) It shall be unlawful for any licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to sell or deliver--
(1) any firearm or ammunition to any individual who the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe is less than eighteen years of age, and, if the firearm, or ammunition is other than a shotgun or rifle, or ammunition for a shotgun or rifle, to any individual who the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe is less than twenty-one years of age;
(2) any firearm to any person in any State where the purchase or possession by such person of such firearm would be in violation of any State law or any published ordinance applicable at the place of sale, delivery or other disposition, unless the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe that the purchase or possession would not be in violation of such State law or such published ordinance;
(3) any firearm to any person who the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in which the licensee's place of business is located, except that this paragraph (A) shall not apply to the sale or delivery of any rifle or shotgun to a resident of a State other than a State in which the licensee's place of business is located if the transferee meets in person with the transferor to accomplish the transfer, and the sale, delivery, and receipt fully comply with the legal conditions of sale in both such States (and any licensed manufacturer, importer or dealer shall be presumed, for purposes of this subparagraph, in the absence of evidence to the contrary, to have had actual knowledge of the State laws and published ordinances of both States), and (B) shall not apply to the loan or rental of a firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes;
(4) to any person any destructive device, machinegun (as defined in section 5845 of the Internal Revenue Code of 1954 [26 USCS § 5845]), short-barreled shotgun, or short-barreled rifle, except as specifically authorized by the Attorney General consistent with public safety and necessity; and
(5) any firearm or armor-piercing ammunition to any person unless the licensee notes in his records, required to be kept pursuant to section 923 of this chapter [18 USCS § 923], the name, age, and place of residence of such person if the person is an individual, or the identity and principal and local places of business of such person if the person is a corporation or other business entity.

Paragraphs (1), (2), (3), and (4) of this subsection shall not apply to transactions between licensed importers, licensed manufacturers, licensed dealers, and licensed collectors. Paragraph (4) of this subsection shall not apply to a sale or delivery to any research organization designated by the Attorney General.

* * *

(d) It shall be unlawful for any person to sell or otherwise dispose of any firearm or ammunition to any person knowing or having reasonable cause to believe that such person--
(1) is under indictment for, or has been convicted in any court of, a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year;
(2) is a fugitive from justice;
(3) is an unlawful user of or addicted to any controlled substance (as defined in section 102 of the Controlled Substances Act (21 U.S.C. 802));
(4) has been adjudicated as a mental defective or has been committed to any mental institution;
(5) who, being an alien--
(A) is illegally or unlawfully in the United States; or
(B) except as provided in subsection (y)(2), has been admitted to the United States under a nonimmigrant visa (as that term is defined in section 101(a)(26) of the Immigration and Nationality Act (8 U.S.C. 1101(a)(26)));
(6) [who] has been discharged from the Armed Forces under dishonorable conditions;
(7) who, having been a citizen of the United States, has renounced his citizenship;
(8) is subject to a court order that restrains such person from harassing, stalking, or threatening an intimate partner of such person or child of such intimate partner or person, or engaging in other conduct that would place an intimate partner in reasonable fear of bodily injury to the partner or child, except that this paragraph shall only apply to a court order that--
(A) was issued after a hearing of which such person received actual notice, and at which such person had the opportunity to participate; and
(B) (i) includes a finding that such person represents a credible threat to the physical safety of such intimate partner or child; or
(ii) by its terms explicitly prohibits the use, attempted use, or threatened use of physical force against such intimate partner or child that would reasonably be expected to cause bodily injury; or
(9) has been convicted in any court of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence.

This subsection shall not apply with respect to the sale or disposition of a firearm or ammunition to a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector who pursuant to subsection (b) of section 925 of this chapter [18 USCS § 925] is not precluded from dealing in firearms or ammunition, or to a person who has been granted relief from disabilities pursuant to subsection (c) of section 925 of this chapter [18 USCS § 925].

* * *

(g) It shall be unlawful for any person--
(1) who has been convicted in any court of, a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year;
(2) who is a fugitive from justice;
(3) who is an unlawful user of or addicted to any controlled substance (as defined in section 102 of the Controlled Substances Act (21 U.S.C. 802));
(4) who has been adjudicated as a mental defective or who has been committed to a mental institution;
(5) who, being an alien--
(A) is illegally or unlawfully in the United States; or
(B) except as provided in subsection (y)(2), has been admitted to the United States under a nonimmigrant visa (as that term is defined in section 101(a)(26) of the Immigration and Nationality Act (8 U.S.C. 1101(a)(26)));
(6) who has been discharged from the Armed Forces under dishonorable conditions;
(7) who, having been a citizen of the United States, has renounced his citizenship;
(8) who is subject to a court order that--
(A) was issued after a hearing of which such person received actual notice, and at which such person had an opportunity to participate;
(B) restrains such person from harassing, stalking, or threatening an intimate partner of such person or child of such intimate partner or person, or engaging in other conduct that would place an intimate partner in reasonable fear of bodily injury to the partner or child; and
(C) (i) includes a finding that such person represents a credible threat to the physical safety of such intimate partner or child; or
(ii) by its terms explicitly prohibits the use, attempted use, or threatened use of physical force against such intimate partner or child that would reasonably be expected to cause bodily injury; or
(9) who has been convicted in any court of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence,

to ship or transport in interstate or foreign commerce, or possess in or affecting commerce, any firearm or ammunition; or to receive any firearm or ammunition which has been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce.

* * *

(y) Provisions relating to aliens admitted under nonimmigrant visas.
(1) Definitions. In this subsection--
(A) the term "alien" has the same meaning as in section 101(a)(3) of the Immigration and Nationality Act (8 U.S.C. 1101(a)(3)); and
(B) the term "nonimmigrant visa" has the same meaning as in section 101(a)(26) of the Immigration and Nationality Act (8 U.S.C. 1101(a)(26)).
(2) Exceptions. Subsections (d)(5)(B), (g)(5)(B), and (s)(3)(B)(v)(II) do not apply to any alien who has been lawfully admitted to the United States under a nonimmigrant visa, if that alien is--
(A) admitted to the United States for lawful hunting or sporting purposes or is in possession of a hunting license or permit lawfully issued in the United States;
(B) an official representative of a foreign government who is--
(i) accredited to the United States Government or the Government's mission to an international organization having its headquarters in the United States; or
(ii) en route to or from another country to which that alien is accredited;
(C) an official of a foreign government or a distinguished foreign visitor who has been so designated by the Department of State; or
(D) a foreign law enforcement officer of a friendly foreign government entering the United States on official law enforcement business.
(3) Waiver.
(A) Conditions for waiver. Any individual who has been admitted to the United States under a nonimmigrant visa may receive a waiver from the requirements of subsection (g)(5), if--
(i) the individual submits to the Attorney General a petition that meets the requirements of subparagraph (C); and
(ii) the Attorney General approves the petition.
(B) Petition. Each petition under subparagraph (B) shall--
(i) demonstrate that the petitioner has resided in the United States for a continuous period of not less than 180 days before the date on which the petition is submitted under this paragraph; and
(ii) include a written statement from the embassy or consulate of the petitioner, authorizing the petitioner to acquire a firearm or ammunition and certifying that the alien would not, absent the application of subsection (g)(5)(B), otherwise be prohibited from such acquisition under subsection (g).
(C) Approval of petition. The Attorney General shall approve a petition submitted in accordance with this paragraph, if the Attorney General determines that waiving the requirements of subsection (g)(5)(B) with respect to the petitioner--
(i) would be in the interests of justice; and
(ii) would not jeopardize the public safety.

* * *

:barf:
(q) (1) The Congress finds and declares that-- (A) crime, particularly crime involving drugs and guns, is a pervasive, nationwide problem;
(B) crime at the local level is exacerbated by the interstate movement of drugs, guns, and criminal gangs;
(C) firearms and ammunition move easily in interstate commerce and have been found in increasing numbers in and around schools, as documented in numerous hearings in both the Committee on the Judiciary [of] the House of Representatives and the Committee on the Judiciary of the Senate;
(D) in fact, even before the sale of a firearm, the gun, its component parts, ammunition, and the raw materials from which they are made have considerably moved in interstate commerce;
(E) while criminals freely move from State to State, ordinary citizens and foreign visitors may fear to travel to or through certain parts of the country due to concern about violent crime and gun violence, and parents may decline to send their children to school for the same reason;
(F) the occurrence of violent crime in school zones has resulted in a decline in the quality of education in our country;
(G) this decline in the quality of education has an adverse impact on interstate commerce and the foreign commerce of the United States;
(H) States, localities, and school systems find it almost impossible to handle gun-related crime by themselves--even States, localities, and school systems that have made strong efforts to prevent, detect, and punish gun-related crime find their efforts unavailing due in part to the failure or inability of other States or localities to take strong measures; and
(I) the Congress has the power, under the interstate commerce clause and other provisions of the Constitution, to enact measures to ensure the integrity and safety of the Nation's schools by enactment of this subsection.
(2) (A) It shall be unlawful for any individual knowingly to possess a firearm that has moved in or that otherwise affects interstate or foreign commerce at a place that the individual knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is a school zone.
(B) Subparagraph (A) does not apply to the possession of a firearm--
(i) on private property not part of school grounds;
(ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license;
(iii) that is--
(I) not loaded; and
(II) in a locked container, or a locked firearms rack that is on a motor vehicle;
(iv) by an individual for use in a program approved by a school in the school zone;
(v) by an individual in accordance with a contract entered into between a school in the school zone and the individual or an employer of the individual;
(vi) by a law enforcement officer acting in his or her official capacity; or
(vii) that is unloaded and is possessed by an individual while traversing school premises for the purpose of gaining access to public or private lands open to hunting, if the entry on school premises is authorized by school authorities.
(3) (A) Except as provided in subparagraph (B), it shall be unlawful for any person, knowingly or with reckless disregard for the safety of another, to discharge or attempt to discharge a firearm that has moved in or that otherwise affects interstate or foreign commerce at a place that the person knows is a school zone.
(B) Subparagraph (A) does not apply to the discharge of a firearm--
(i) on private property not part of school grounds;
(ii) as part of a program approved by a school in the school zone, by an individual who is participating in the program;
(iii) by an individual in accordance with a contract entered into between a school in a school zone and the individual or an employer of the individual; or
(iv) by a law enforcement officer acting in his or her official capacity.
(4) Nothing in this subsection shall be construed as preempting or preventing a State or local government from enacting a statute establishing gun free school zones as provided in this subsection.
 
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Holy alien unsureness, Batman!

I was going to take my daughter's friend, who is here on a student visa, shooting this weekend, with my firearms and ammo, on either BLM land or a public shooting range.

Sounds like no one knows whether that's legal or not.

Scarey.
 
So the 2nd Amendment has nothing to do with unalienable rights (no-pun intended) guaranteed to all people and can be limited based on nationality? Interesting.

If I had an alien friend, I would take them shooting either way. The odds of a cop or INS rolling up and checking us out are pretty slim.
 
I just like the fact that we are trying to educate foreigners on our rights and that the braindamage their own countries are causing by not allowing the same to them.

We had some family in from Sweden a couple of weeks ago and they went nuts after I got out a couple of airsoft guns. Their eyes lit up, they went through about 5000 rounds shooting at anything and everything. Who knows what evil thoughts I might have put in their minds if I opened the gun safe. :evil:
 
Here in Illinois where our masters require a Firearm Owners ID card, you cannot even TOUCH a gun in a gunshop without first showing your FOID card. Having a gun, or as little as one round of ammo, in your hand is a felony without a FOID. It's for the kids.
 
Here in Illinois where our masters require a Firearm Owners ID card, you cannot even TOUCH a gun in a gunshop without first showing your FOID card. Having a gun, or as little as one round of ammo, in your hand is a felony without a FOID. It's for the kids.
Here in the United States . . .

Nevermind. We still have inane federal laws here, too.
 
i dont think its a law that is often enforced.

the range lets tourists on to see if there are any shooters willing to let them shoot some guns they can't ever get near back in their home country.
 
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