"non resident aliens cannot shoot at the range"

[Captain33036]

Hi

I have seen some information regarding this on the net, but nothing really definitive. I am pretty certain I know the answer, but I thought it might be interesting to discuss here.

I took two friends to the range today. One an Aussie, just visiting, the other a Canadian who lives here in FL.

We went to a range that takes your ID. So, they took my CC permit, the Aussies passport and the Canadians FL DL. We did not need to rent any ammo or guns.

After the range session, we were chatting with the owner when he told us that non US citizens cannot shoot guns at any range in the US. That it was against the law. He was not accusing us of having committed a crime, he was just stating this as a matter of fact.

I found this very odd, and do not think it is at all factual. I find it dubious considering the fact that the ATF announced nearly a year ago that non resident aliens can buy guns while in the US.

A search of the ATF site found no information on this. Looking over the CFR, 922, there did not seem any bar.

There is some language in 922 that relates to possession and aliens, but there does not seem to be a consensus on whether allowing someone at a range to shoot your gun, and you maintain control over it, constitutes possession. I would not think allowing someone to use something for a very brief period of time, while with you, would be possession.

I wonder if anyone could shed light on this?

Thanks

 

[dogtown tom]

The range owner is an idiot.

The range owner is an idiot.

There is no federal law that restricts range usage to U.S. citizens.

As long as they are in the US legally they can even buy firearms.
"Permanent residents" & "Non resident aliens" not only can shoot guns, but can even purchase fireams. A "nonresident alien" is someone in the USA on a temporary worker, student or tourist visa. To purchase a firearm they must present the same government issued photo ID as well as a hunting license and proof of 90 days residency. They complete the same 4473 and NICS as a IS citizen.

Most states will even issue a CHL to permanent residents (Texas does).

 

[Captain33036]

Thanks for the reply. That is what I thought, but wanted to get more information from the folks here.

It is a little dissapointing, considering how much money I have spent at the range AND the gun shop.

I think this is a range I will patronize a good deal less.

Best

J

 

[Spats McGee]

I've never heard of such a thing. I think dogtown tom nailed it.

 

[Captain33036]

Actually, it was more than a little dissapointing. I have purchased a Kimber and a SIG from this shop. Have been going to the range for some time.

The guy's comment upset my Canadian girlfriend who now thinks we shouldn't go shooting any more. Just when I got her to be comfortable and enjoy it.

There are a lot of gun shops and ranges in Fort Lauderdale. I will be taking my business to the other ones.

How could an owner be so ignorant?

 

[Art Eatman]

Tourists have been coming to the US for decades to go shooting, because they have little or no opportunity in their own country. The Japanese are noted for that. And more than one "Limey" has done the same, just for the opportunity to mess with a wide range of rifles, pistols and shotguns.

 

[Captain33036]

Hi Art

Yes, that is true. The GS owner said that there are many shops that "ignore the law." But he doesn't. Of course, this was after he took our money and let us shoot for an hour.

On a side note, I was hoping to be a good ambassador for us. After we talked about gun safety, owner responsibility and some statistics. Then a session at the range, the Aussie now thinks that their laws against firearm ownership were a big mistake. And, he is fairly politically connected. Score one for us. ...but....the talk with the GS owner really didn't help.

Best

John

 

[7.62 Nato]

"How could an owner be so ignorant? "

Ignorance can be handled by supplying him with correct information, and cites to pertinent laws. See if you can get a statement from someone in authority in your area regarding his concerns. Once supplied with this information, explain what a great business opportunity he's missing not accepting these customers other ranges are "discriminating against". Ignorance is merely not knowing, if he still refuses to learn it can't be blamed on ignorance.

 

[Captain33036]

Hi 7.62

Not really my place to educate someone on the law. I am not an expert, nor a lawyer (and no one is going to ask me to play on on TV anytime soon).

Arguing interpretations such as what constitutes possession is a fruitless exercise with someone who does not want to change his mind.

I was hoping to find some specific information on the ATF site, but there is absolutely nothing regarding shooting ranges and aliens there.

It would be great if someone who is knowledgable could point to a section in 922, perhaps, that is clear and unambiguous.

At this point, it is simpler to just go to another range. There are many and I do not need to give this place any more of my hard earned money.

Still, it would be great to find out if there is a section in the CFR that deals with this. My Canadian girlfriend is pretty upset and thinks we will be breaking the law, if we go shooting again.

Thanks
J

 

[Aaron Baker]

Unfortunately, you're not gonna find a section of law anywhere, even in the CFR, that tells you that this is okay. That's because laws tell you, generally, what's NOT okay. And quite honestly, that's how Americans like their laws. I certainly don't want the government to give me an exhaustive list of all the activities that I'm allowed to do. Just tell me what I can't do.

The problem is that your girlfriend isn't going to be able to see anything in writing that says "Yes, it's okay for non-citizens to shoot guns in the US."

But it really is. The possession issue is no different from NFA possession. It's a huge crime to unlawfully transfer or possess a short-barreled rifle or a machine gun. Yet I can let people shoot my (registered) short-barreled rifle or machine gun as long as I'm present with them. The same would be true for a normal firearm and someone who is a non-citizen.

As far as I know, there's not a single law out there about who can or cannot legally shoot at a shooting range.

Aaron (who is a lawyer, but is NOT your lawyer)

 

[Captain33036]

Hi Aaron

Thanks for the reply. I completely agree and am glad we have a system that does NOT tell us what we CAN do.

It is just very unfortunate that this ignorant owner upset my gf and created this concern, just when she was enjoying this right that we have.

Cannot understand what this ignorant person (a shop and range OWNER) was thinking.

Thanks

J

 

[Odd Job]

Tell the range owner I recently had two enjoyable sessions at Take Aim indoor range in Sarasota, with my British passport on the clip. I wouldn't be doing that if it was illegal.
Oh, I should add I am a member there also...

 

[dalesp]

I know a gun shop/range owner here in Oklahoma that is right off of Route 66. He told me that he frequently has tourists travelling America's world famous Route 66, both in cars and on bikes, that stop at his range and rent firearms on their trip across the USA. More than a few have had so much fun shooting that they end up staying a lot longer than they planned.

 

[DMF]

I would not think allowing someone to use something for a very brief period of time, while with you, would be possession.

Nope. If someone is a prohibited possessor under 18USC922(g), they cannot possess firearms or ammunition, period. You can't take a felon to the range and let him shoot your gun. You can't take your uncle whose been adjudicated a mental defective and shoot with him either. Same for your niece who smokes "medical"barf marijuana. They would be in physical possession of a firearm if you went shooting with them at the range, and that is illegal.

 

[Spats McGee]

I thought I had the answer, but have edited this post to avoid giving some really, really bad advice. Trying to scare up the proper statutory language now.

 

[Art Eatman]

Let's not get sidetracked by "prohibited persons", okay? Forget felons, nutzoids and dopers.

 

[medalguy]

Good idea. Aaron hit it-- the law tells us what we CANNOT do, not what we CAN do. At least most places.

 

[Teachu2]

I think you are over-reacting. People make mistakes, and are often wrong. If you only patronize perfect establishments, you'll save a lot of money - there will be nowhere to spend it.

Ask the guy for clarification - and for citation of regulation or law. Tell him your Canadian gf is worried, and you want to make sure he is correct.

 

[dogtown tom]

Captain33036 ...I was hoping to find some specific information on the ATF site, but there is absolutely nothing regarding shooting ranges and aliens there.

You won't find it because it isn't there.....there is no such law. Mr Range Owner is the one you should ask to provide his source of information.

I think he's one of many that think only US citizens can buy guns. I do 20-30 transfers a year for non US citizens, many have mentioned other dealers or gun stores refusing to sell to them "because its illegal".
Just look at a Form 4473:http://www.atf.gov/forms/download/atf-f-4473-1.pdf

Questions 11.l., 12, 15 and 20.c. are specifically for aliens to answer.

 

[Captain33036]

I did actually ask him for clarification. He picked up form 4473, flipped through it and obscurely pointed to some line that I could barely see that he said stipulated that non-immigrant aliens could not possess firearms. Form 4473???? Not sure how that relates. He then stated that the definition of "Non-immigrant alien" was someone who had a "green card."

So, arguing with someone over their interpretation of the laws that apply to their business seemed, frankly, unproductive.

In this country, I think we DO patronize the businesses of our own chosing (so far)....and there are many to chose from.

As for the issue of possession....that seems to be a salent and interesting point. Some people DO interpret that to mean when you simply hand something to someone and they are in fact holding it. IF that were to be the case, then I would suggest to you that every gun store in this country has violated the law, since I have never seen any gun shop ask someone for an ID or background check before they handed them a gun to inspect.

I would still be very interested to hear some legal opinions on this.

 

[Rollis R. Karvellis]

During deer gun season half of Toronto Ca. will be down in my little part of S.E. Ohio. And they will be using the public, and private ranges with no problems.

 

[mgkdrgn]

1-800-horse ****

There are any number of ranges in Vegas that make a small fortune letting foreign tourists shoot all kinds of guns, including full auto, at their ranges.

He was reading from a 4473, a form for a PURCHASE of a firearm? This guy is so full of it I'll betcha his eyes are brown.

Next thing he'll be telling you is you'll get a SWAT team visit if you rip the tag off your mattress ...

 

[duns]

He picked up form 4473, flipped through it and obscurely pointed to some line that I could barely see that he said stipulated that non-immigrant aliens could not possess firearms.

Wrong, this what the ATF says http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/non-immigrant-aliens.pdf:

Q3. May a nonimmigrant alien who has been admitted to the United States under a nonimmigrant alien visa purchase or possess a firearm in the U.S.?
A3. An alien admitted to the United States under a nonimmigrant visa is not prohibited from purchasing, receiving, or possessing a firearm if the alien falls within one of the following exceptions: (1) is in possession of a hunting license or permit lawfully issued by the Federal Government, a State, or local government, or an Indian tribe federally recognized by the Bureau of Indian Affairs, which is valid and unexpired; (2) was admitted to the United States for lawful hunting or sporting purposes; (3) has received a waiver from the prohibition from the Attorney General of the United States; (4) is an official representative of a foreign government who is accredited to the United States Government or the Government’s mission to an international organization having its headquarters in the United States; (5) is en route to or from another country to which that alien is accredited; (6) is an official of a foreign government or a distinguished foreign visitor who has been so designated by the Department of State; or (7) is a foreign law enforcement officer of a friendly foreign government entering the United States on official law enforcement business.

 

[duns]

After the range session, we were chatting with the owner when he told us that non US citizens cannot shoot guns at any range in the US.

Wrong. There is no Federal law that says you have to be a US Citizen. I'm a permanent resident and I have bought many guns, have a TX CHL, and of course shoot at ranges.

My overseas visitors have often shot at ranges with me, with no questions asked. I am a little concerned to discover this just now on the ATF site http://www.atf.gov/training/firearms/ffl-learning-theater/swf/toon6.html. This appears to say that a nonimmigrant alien must have a hunting license to rent a gun for use on the on-site range or off-site. If offsite, a NICS check is also required. However, it doesn't say what is the position of a nonimmigrant alien shooting a friend's gun at the range.

 

[duns]

Here's another relevant document from the ATF:http://www.atf.gov/publications/newsletters/ffl/ffl-newsletter-2002-12.pdf. In the context of a Federally licensed firearms dealer or gun range operator, it states:

In view of the foregoing, you may loan or rent a firearm to nonimmigrant alien visitors to your gun range, provided they possess a valid hunting license issued by any State or meet one of the exceptions set out above.

So it would appear that a hunting license is generally needed for a nonimmigrant alien to even borrow a firearm from a range operator. Still does not address whether the nonimmigrant alien can borrow a firearm from a friend who is at the range with them.