Targets

[mikemyers]

Not all that long ago, I thought the "shoot-n-see" targets were one of the best things ever invented for target shooting. It was "obvious" to me how good they were, as I could see exactly where my shots landed, and thought I could correct things for the following shots.

Then Mr. Borland here on THR suggested that I stop using that kind of target, and just concentrate on the fundamentals. The end result was I made up my own targets, that didn't show me where the holes were unless I got the target close enough to really see it. At first, I used a solid black bullseye printed on paper, then one with a grid so I could later calculate the "CEP" to know my statistical group size, and then I combined that with a standard NRA target so I could see what my "score" would be, were I to add it up as per the NRA rules. Unless I used a scope, or got close to the target, I didn't know for sure where the holes went (although I felt I knew that just as I fired the gun).

I noticed that I shot better on my own targets than on the shoot-n-see targets. I accepted that Mr. Borland knows so much about this, that even if I don't fully understand the "why", following his advice was helping my accuracy and group size.


I forgot to bring enough of my own targets to the range last weekend, so I shot at five shoot-n-see targets, and didn't do nearly as well as I had been doing. I sent a photo of the results to Linda Dillon, the Secretary of the Hollywood Pistol & Rifle Club, who I was to meet this past Monday, so I could apply for membership in the club. She wrote me back as follows:

"...I also am old school and do not like the “Shoot N’ See Targets”. I believe the brain starts anticipating shots based on the fluorescent color so most of us practice on regular NRA B8C targets as that’s what we use in competition. "​

I wonder how others here feel about this. As for me, I now think the whole shoot-n-see target idea is an illusion. Consciously or not, seeing those bright colored holes has an effect on a person's next shot(s), and makes the grouping worse, not better. People think it's helping them, while all the time it's preventing them from doing their best. IMHO.

 

[rcmodel]

I agree completely.

A really good top level marksman marks his score book before looking through his spotting scope to see where the bullet hole is on target.

And he very seldom has to use an eraser to change it.

It's called 'calling your shots', and is done by being so focused on the front sight when the shot goes off, you know exactly where the bullet hit the target before looking through the spotting scope to find out.

Seeing the holes on target will mess you up, because your mind will start chasing them around.

And it only gets worse from there!!

rc

 

[ColtPythonElite]

I prefer a 1.5 to 2.5 inch neon orange dot on a plain white sheet of paper. I get them by the roll of 1000 off eBay. They are pricing labels.

 

[Dr.Rob]

I have used thousands of those orange dot stickers in rifle shooting, I prefer slow fire bullseye or IDPA targets for pistols.

 

[StrawHat]

When I shot competition, it was with black targets and black sights. Trigger control and follow through got you good scores.

I have not, nor will I, use a shoot and see. If I want to see results from my shots, I use a tin can.

Kevin

 

[ku4hx]

I used to make my own using the grid in Lotus 123 and Excel, then I discovered free, downloadable, targets on the internet. Printed on recycled paper (and copied in bulk at a local Kinkos) they make fair to middling targets.

Color contrast targets that display a shot were nice with a couple of new shooters I helped get started, but after a time they were just an added expense that served little to no added value.

 

[Plan2Live]

I also believe the Shoot-N-See targets encourage a shooter to come off the sights to see where the last shot went. I prefer the +1 sight picture or follow through method. Acquire your sight picture, fire, then come back on target. If you want to shoot again, repeat the above, if you don't want to shoot again then come off the sights, check your six, then check your target.

 

[Zaydok Allen]

This is an interesting notion that I'd never thought of before. My eyes kind of stink so even with shoot-n-sees I have a hard time seeing the exact hit location. I usually favor the 8" ones, but shoot at them from 15 to 35 yards depending on my mood. Defense practice is usually 7 yards for me.

The next time I get targets, I'll try some non shoot-n-sees and see if my groupings are tighter.

So I'm curious now. Do you guys think shooting steel and that audible ring has a similar effect as it gives you immediate feedback that you hit? I mean it could in theory cause a similar effect, no?

 

[Rule3]

Interesting topic I had never heard of this. It makes some sort of sense but I would have to see more data or studies on it.

Besides that would kill me as I have thousands of those Caldwells that I always bought when Midway had the blems on sale I do on occasion use paper plates with a dot in the center,

Thinking about I do always look after each shot to see where it hit.

 

[MrBorland]

Since they're in the habit of putting their attention where it ought to be, ShootNCs won't likely make as much difference to the bullseye master.

Conversely, since they're not in the habit of putting their attention where it ought to be, ShootNCs won't likely make as much difference to the average Joe, either.

Do you guys think shooting steel and that audible ring has a similar effect as it gives you immediate feedback that you hit? I mean it could in theory cause a similar effect, no?

Steel's great for working on speed and for having fun, but it's not very good for developing fine marksmanship skills. For one thing, steel's relatively large, so while one might be happy with their hits, those hits might show up on paper as a lousy group you'd never know about. Also, shooters tend to remember the hits, while forgetting the misses.

BTW, good Steel Challenge shooters don't wait for the feedback "ring". That's much too slow - vision and subconsciousness is much faster - so like in shooting for groups, these guys use their sights to see what they need to see.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uAfcbBAbRiQ


.

 

[Zaydok Allen]

Steel's great for working on speed and for having fun, but it's not very good for developing fine marksmanship skills. For one thing, steel's relatively large, so while one might be happy with their hits, those hits might show up on paper as a lousy group you'd never know about. Also, shooters tend to remember the hits, while forgetting the misses.

BTW, good Steel Challenge shooters don't wait for the feedback "ring". That's much too slow - vision and subconsciousness is much faster - so like in shooting for groups, these guys use their sights to see what they need to see.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uAfcbBAbRiQ


.

Right, and I get that shooting steel and shooting paper have two completely different purposes. Wider groupings on a steel target are really kind of irrelevant. I'm just curious if the effect would be the same.

I guess it really wouldn't because all the clang would tell you is if you did indeed hit the target at all, not if you hit the target where you intended.

 

[mikemyers]

When I read something MrBorland wrote about shoot-n-see targets last year, it had the same effect on me as had someone written 2 + 2 = 22, and not 4. It didn't make sense to me, as I was so used to thinking the "past history" of my earlier shots was essential to doing better. On the other hand, after all the good information he had written, I felt that I must be missing something.

I'm far, far from an "expert", but I did clearly understand something from that discussion. When I do shoot at "shoot-n-see" targets, I can't avoid noticing where my earlier shots landed. It made it harder to ONLY pay attention to "the fundamentals" along with centering my sights in the middle of the bullseye. If four shots were "high left" for example, I know I had a desire to adjust my aim accordingly.

All of this is just words on paper though. More importantly, I've also noticed that I consistently do better when shooting at "old style" targets than I do with the "shoot-n-see" type targets.

If I was talented enough to be a sniper, and had the equipment set up, knowing that I was "off" by a certain distance, in a certain direction, should help me make adjustments to bring the shot closer. In my case, it's all hand-held, and at 15 yards I seem to shoot 3" groups, occasionally better, on my regular targets, and 4" or larger on the shoot-n-see targets. I don't know for sure why this is. I don't know how to correct it. I can pretend to ignore my earlier holes, but I know that's not possible for me to do. If several shots were off in any particular direction, I have this overwhelming desire to want to bring the "next" shot on-center. I don't have the talent to deliberately move my shots one inch in any direction. As a result, after 15 shots or so, I've shot a "group", but it's larger than what I usually do.


Maybe MrBorland or someone familiar with this can explain it better.

=====================================================

Having said all that, for someone just starting out, maybe those targets are useful, so the person at least knows his bullets are hitting the target somewhere. Maybe. Maybe that's how people get "addicted" to those targets, as I think I did. I don't know.

 

[MrBorland]

I don't know how to correct it. I can pretend to ignore my earlier holes, but I know that's not possible for me to do.

This is why it's so important to maintain focus and to avoid peeking at the target in the first place - because it's really hard to be unaffected by what you saw. The temptation to peek is strong but manageable, but ShootNCs make resistance impossible, because they're designed to be looked at.

FWIW, I occasionally use ShootNCs on the rifle range, but only at distances of greater than 200-250 yards, since the ShootNCs at this distance make it easier to confirm hits when using a spotting scope.

 

[sawdeanz]

I've heard about this from when I first started shooting as I had a knowledgeable instructor friend. He would emphasize never look up from your shooting to observe the target, as you would be breaking your form. I believe this happens with the shoot n see, where you are unconsciously breaking your form as your eyes are distracted by the holes. Now I still use them sometimes when sighting in a rifle or if I don't have a spotter scope on long ranges.

 

[243winxb]

Bullseye pistol shooting with iron sights

On the black Bullseye target, i like to hold at 6 o'clock. I can see the sights better.

 

[mikemyers]

On the black Bullseye target, i like to hold at 6 o'clock. I can see the sights better.

That was MrBorland's advice to me a while back, and it helped considerably (with iron sights). Being able to see the black bullseye right on top of my front sight was easier for my eyes than trying to shoot at the middle of it. My results got better, by following that advice.

With my red dot sights, it's completely different. It's relatively easy to put the dot right in the middle, or at least the middle of the wobble of the red dot. Knowing where previous shots went is irrelevant at that point. ....and unlike last year, now I have a reasonably good idea of where the hole is going to be in the target after each shot. More often than before, it's a "nice", and less often than before it's an "oops".



There are people I know, who insist all this is just foolish. The *know* that they are doing better correcting for what they just did in the previous shot. In one case, the person got reasonably good, and can't find a way to improve over where he is right now. He *knows* that all this is just internet nonsense. I'm trying to get him to test it out, and see for himself, but not having any luck at getting him to try it.

 

[243winxb]

http://www.bullseyepistol.com/ Some good here.

 

[TfflHndn]

I have mixed thoughts on this kind of target. Generally, if your fundamentals are not good, it doesn't really matter what kind of target you use, because you won't be consistent. If your fundamentals are good, it won't really matter what kind of target you use because it won't cause you to deviate from your pattern. It's the shooters in between that sometimes have a problem with shoot-n-see or other targets where they can see their impact. If they are not calling their shots, they do chase the bull or the last shot. Even if they are, there's a temptation to adjust each shot rather than put a well-aimed group on target and adjust from there. Some can do that and be fine. Others have a problem finding consistency because they are adjusting every shot so it gets hard to figure out what the problem is. That's when I tell them to flip the target around and just shoot for the middle of a blank page, concentrating on sight picture and trigger control. If that shrinks the group, then do it again until the fundamentals are back under control.

Shoot-n-sees are a good tool if used properly. I use them a lot.

 

[ACP]

I use an empty copy paper box covered with an old t-shirt hanging from a piece of paracord.

The 3-D box is the same size as a human torso; the paracord allows it to swing and sway form an indoor range target hanger; and the t-shirt does not allow me to see "hits" very easily.

 

[JDGray]

Shooting steel is more fun, and shooting at small steel is even better! A 1" spinner st 25' is fun to plink at with a handgun.

 

[mikemyers]

.......if your fundamentals are not good, it doesn't really matter what kind of target you use, because you won't be consistent. If your fundamentals are good, it won't really matter what kind of target you use because it won't cause you to deviate from your pattern. It's the shooters in between that sometimes have a problem with shoot-n-see or other targets where they can see their impact........

I think what you wrote is pretty close to what's going on with me. I'm trying to get from that first group, into the second group, and to me, the shoot-n-see stuff seems to be more of a distraction than a help. I don't think I have a "problem" with the shoot-n-see, just a distraction.

I can block out the noise from all the other people around me, so I'm only in my own little world with the target in front of me. I can mostly block out other things that might be on my mind, and give just about my full concentration to what I'm doing. I can try to "call my shots", but it's futile when I see the blurry yellow splotch appear in front of me before my brain can tell me where it "should" be. It's not impossible - I can force myself to do so, but that alone is distracting me from what I want to be thinking about.

Maybe all that is just an illusion, and it may be that something completely different is going on, but regardless of the explanation, for a while now I'm consistently better with black targets that don't show me where the bullet landed. Maybe a year from now, it won't matter what kind of target I shoot at, but I'm not that good yet. (Shooting at a large black X with iron sights is no problem, as the target is so blurry I can't see the holes anyway, so if I'm not using a red dot sight, I may continue to just draw large X figures with a magic marker on the back side of my target or something, and shoot at that.)

 

[RAT807]

I use different targets for different reasons. For load development work, I buy the targets from Bass Pro that are white, have grid lines, a large orange diamond center target and smaller orange diamonds in each corner. The white background will easily show .22 caliber hole at 100 yards with a 3 power optic. Most 3X9 scopes can see bullet holes at 200 yards. The twist I use is to turn the target over and place an orange sticker on the solid white back. I have 1" and 2" orange dots. You can also see the grid lines bleeding through the paper so you can still see how far off the dot your bullets hit. The targets are large enough that I put two dots on it and no problem shooting two groups even at 200 yards. I also write all load data on the targets.
The rifle target I use to sight in a proven load and rifle combo Is a small red diamond centered in a medium sized +. It's really a crosshair target to align your crosshairs on. I found this target at Accuateshooter.com

For pistols, I use the same target from Bass Pro and put 4 dots on each target shooting off a bench at 25 yards. The white background makes it easier to see equal daylight on each side of the front post. Black sights and a black bullseye, not very easy to do at all. Someone mentioned a 6 o'clock hold, same thing. My thought process on all of this is all my load data is on each target, with chrono speeds, ES and SD, plus the grouping. Very easy to see what your gun likes. I experiment with different components and seating depths, again with 4 groups per target paper.

Another target I use a lot has grid lines on an 8"X11" paper with 5 black diamonds. Each diamond has a 1" white circle in the middle. From 7 yards freehand shooting, good shooting fundamentals are the focus with this target. I start out having the shooters I'm working with, aim at the white 1" circle. Concentrate on trigger control, follow through, breathing and relaxing. Fire 1 round, trap the trigger, ease the trigger back out til you feel the trigger reset. Breath again and start to squeeze the trigger again. Stay on the gun (sight picture) and only look at the target for bullet holes, after the shot string. Later I will have them call their shot. Pick one of the 5 diamonds and shoot one of the 4 points on the diamond, 3 shots. As an instructor, I have to see when a shooter is struggling, and normally have them do some dry practice or dry fire several times before getting them back on live ammo. Most are pretty snappy on the trigger pull.

 

[mikemyers]

.........My thought process on all of this is all my load data is on each target, with chrono speeds, ES and SD, plus the grouping. Very easy to see what your gun likes. I experiment with different components and seating depths, again with 4 groups per target paper........

If you, or anyone, has any interest in a combination NRA B-2 target, and a set of 1" grid lines so it's easy to calculate the CEP for group size, download this and print it at 100% size. Each sheet provides two targets.

http://www.sgrid.com/2015/NRA%20B-2%20and%20CPE%20Target.jpg​

I like the idea of CEP. Instead of saving old targets, if you calculate the CEP from the target, you know mathematically both how well you did, and how far the center of your shots is from the bullseye. (...but I haven't yet met anyone who likes this idea - too much like work...) After what you wrote, maybe I should add a place to fill in all the information you noted. As to the target, the CEP gives you a single number that says how well you did (at that distance, gun, ammunition, etc.).

http://www.ctmuzzleloaders.com/ctml_experiments/accuracy/accuracy.html​

 

[Rule3]

So some here are saying that when using a non Shoot and See type target you are not looking at the target to see where the shot hit?

That seeing the change of color is different than seeing a white hole in the black bullseye on a paper target. Using a grid target on white paper you do not see the hole and make no corrections if it is off??

Or you are just shooting at a target and then go down range and see if you hit it.

Must be a ZEN like Chevy Chase in Caddy Shack

 

[mikemyers]

For me, that's easy to answer. With iron sights, I don't see the holes at all until I get close to the target (walk to it, or bring it back to me). It's far too blurry. With the shoot-n-see even with the target all blurry, I clearly see a spot of blurry yellow.

With my red-dot sight on my 22, because it has no magnification, if the holes are in the black, I don't know where they are. I can't see them. But if they're way off in the white area, since the target isn't blurry, I sometimes do notice them.... but they're not nearly as obvious as a larger bright yellow circle on a black background. This is at 15 yards, and my eyes aren't all that sharp even with my distance glasses.


You wrote "make no corrections if it is off??". That's the whole point. I don't make any corrections until I've shot a whole group, so I KNOW the grouping is off, and then I adjust the sights. With the guns I have, I never "fudge" and move the gun one way or another to correct for holes in the wrong place. I *always* aim for the center of the bullseye, or the bottom if I'm shooting lollipop. If the holes are off, I adjust the sights.

(If I didn't have adjustable sights, I'd have to change my point of aim. I'll find out what that is like when I start shooting my Taurus 9mm......)


Oh, and I'm only writing here what *I* do. It may or may not be the right thing to do. It's based on what I've read in books, but mostly right here in this discussion, thanks especially to MrBorland (and now, Linda Dillon as well).