How do you come up with a rating for how well you shoot?

[mikemyers]

I've read the NRA pages on calculating target scores several times, but I think I'm missing something. With the NRA 50 Foot B-2 Slow Fire Pistol Target, I think I understand that a person would fire ten shots at a target, and then points would be added up, based on which "ring" the bullet hole was in.

Is it correct that if a person shot all ten bullets into a single hole, where the "5" is printed on the target, they would be given 50 points? ...and if instead, they put their ten bullets at random places in the same "ring", they would get the same 50 points score?

If so, this doesn't seem like a good way to judge how good a shooter is. Group size sounds like a better way to judge. My definition of "group size" is that were the shooter to take several more shots, they would likely be in the same group size. Even that has a "problem" though, as the more shots are made, the larger the group usually becomes, although after "enough" shots, it's very likely that the group size has been determined.

My own solution has been to calculate CEP for the group, which is a statistical number, based on the number of shots you've already made, that gives you a calculated result, such as the group diameter that should include a given percentage of shots. I don't remember anyone else here who liked this idea though.

My question: "How do handgun shooters come up with a rating for how well they shoot?"

 

[Bobson]

My question: "How do handgun shooters come up with a rating for how well they shoot?"

If you do something well, you're necessarily evaluating against something; whether another person, a given score on a specific course of fire, etc.

So really, there's your answer. Want to know how well you shoot? Pick something measurable and compare yourself to it. The IDPA classifier is an easy standard to find online. Many LE agencies also publish their training standards and how scores are evaluated.

There is no widely (much less universally) adopted standard or rating for shooting "well," because it's dependant on one's goals.

 

[wally]

For me its simple, 6 steel plates at 10 yards in 3 seconds or less is great, over 4 seconds is terrible.


The traditional bullseye shooting is based on the deviation from point of aim of the point of impact. Consistency of a large deviation is not considered a virtue! Hence any shot in the 5 ring is the same bracketed deviation and thus scored the same.

This being the case, you won't find any bullseye shooters without adjustable sights.

If you are getting 10 ring sized groups in the 5 ring you need to adjust your sights!

 

[Saleen322]

Is it correct that if a person shot all ten bullets into a single hole, where the "5" is printed on the target, they would be given 50 points?

Yes, while highly unlikely, that is correct. Normally in such a case a sight adjustment would be preformed so that the "single hole" would be in the 10 ring for 100 points.

 

[rcmodel]

10-ring for 100 points, plus all 10 in the x ring, or even 1x, would be a better score.

As stated, NRA Bullseye is not about group size.

It's all about the total score, including those in the x-ring inside the 10 ring.

rc

 

[Deaf Smith]

How do you come up with a rating for how well you shoot?

How well you shoot depends on how well OTHERS shoot.

Now if you consider only such people as Rob Letham or Jerry Miculek then most of us mere morals shoot poorly with me being a novice.

If compared to the local tin can shooter at least I compare quite well and maybe I'm an expert.

Just depends.

Deaf

 

[SEE IT LIKE A NATIVE]

It seems that if you have the skills needed to put a "nice tight group" in the 5 ring , you should be able to figure out how to move the group into the 10 ring ? Kevin

 

[Sam1911]

Bobson has the right idea. "How well do you shoot?" is not a simple question to answer. It depends greatly on what you're shooting and why.

Three aspects of shooting are about equally important:
1) Accuracy: Hitting what you are aiming at; and,
2) Precision: Hitting the same spot repeatedly, consistently; and,
2) Time: Making that shot at the moment you need to.

You can take 5 minutes to put 5 shots into the X ring of a bullseye target, but for a very great deal of the sorts of problems folks look to handguns to solve, that's pretty much useless.

You can rip off 5 shots in under a second and put them all inside an 8" circle. For a bullseye shooter, that's a total failure. For an IDPA or USPSPA shooter, or someone stopping an assault or defending their home that's a total win.

For someone sitting in a tree stand when a white-tail steps across a clearing, something in between is needed. Accurate enough, fast enough.

I know and use the IDPA Classifier myself as my go-to test procedure. There are other, shorter skills tests which may suit you. Or, maybe simple "stand-and-shoot" mechanical accuracy testing is all you really care about, in which case shooting the standard bullseye course of fire is good enough for that.

 

[Ankeny]

When I am involved in a shooting "sport" or "discipline" I use the classification of that particular sport as a rough measurement. "Master" is pretty decent. High Master or Grand Master is better yet. The word "Distinguished" is another mile stone.

For me its simple, 6 steel plates at 10 yards in 3 seconds or less is great, over 4 seconds is terrible.

I would think that would depend on the size of the plates, spacing, shooting platform, and carry method.

 

[mikemyers]

When I am involved in a shooting "sport" or "discipline" I use the classification of that particular sport as a rough measurement. "Master" is pretty decent. High Master or Grand Master is better yet. The word "Distinguished" is another mile stone..........

If this is even an appropriate question, what type of average scores on the B-2 slow-fire 50 foot target would indicate someone might be a:

• Master
• High Master
• Grand Master
• Distinguished Master

Is there a place on the NRA website where results like these get posted, or is it just a regional thing?


I guess what I am really asking about is "precision", but a little adjustment of the sights should make things both "precise" and "accurate".

 

[MrBorland]

Is there a place on the NRA website where results like these get posted, or is it just a regional thing?

Grand, Distinguished and High Master are all classifications that're one above Master. Which label is used depends on the sanctioning body, each of which has their own mode to that classification.

Above Master in USPSA = Grand Master
Above Master in IDPA = Distinguished Master
Above Master in Bullseye Pistol & High Power Rife = High Master

Classification aside, you can also earn your Distinguished Pistol and/or Rifle badge in Bullseye Pistol and/or High Power Rifle, respectively.

Confused yet?

If so, this doesn't seem like a good way to judge how good a shooter is. Group size sounds like a better way to judge.

In competition, the best shooter frequently wins, but it's not the nature of competition to garuantee the best shooter will. Also, in reality, there's more to good shooting than a tight group. Hitting what you need to hit and what you see is a more general and appropriate description of good shooting. As such, the shooter who shoots a tight group into the 7-ring because they didn't adjust their sights didn't shoot well because they didn't hit what they needed to hit. They lose. That's life.

 

[browningguy]

Group size doesn't matter if it's in the wrong place.

 

[Jenrick]

Assuming a 100 point target per NRA rules:

Average score over last ten targets:
High Master - 97 or higher
Master - 95.00-96.99
Expert - 90.00-94.99
Sharpshooter - 85.00-89.00
Marksman - Below 85.00

-Jenrick

 

[Saleen322]

10-ring for 100 points, plus all 10 in the x ring, or even 1x, would be a better score.

The OP stated a B2 target. The B2 has no X ring.

 

[mikemyers]

Assuming a 100 point target per NRA rules:

Average score over last ten targets:
High Master - 97 or higher
Master - 95.00-96.99
Expert - 90.00-94.99
Sharpshooter - 85.00-89.00
Marksman - Below 85.00

-Jenrick

Between what you wrote, and Mr. Borland wrote, I think I have the answer to the original question. All the shots need to hit very close to the same place (precision) and that place needs to be close to the center of the target, where you're aiming. To get above the "basic level" (Marksman) one needs to get more than 85 points out of a maximum total of 100.


If I understand section 14.3 of the NRA scoring rules correctly, if a bullet hole cuts into one of the scoring rings, this counts as if you had shot anywhere within that ring. Is this right?


The reason I'm asking is mostly because someone suggested I shoot at the NRA B-2 targets rather than my own CEP targets, which are marked in inches so as to make it easy to calculate the CEP for any group of shots.

(I created a target that I can print out, which has two B-2 targets marked both for the NRA scoring, and with a one inch grid for CPE calculations. Anyone who wants to try it out can find it here:

http://www.sgrid.com/2014/NRA B-2 and CPE Target.jpg​

I can post the spreadsheet that calculates the CPE information if anyone wants to see it....
.....and I can also post the target I created with just one NRA B-2 target, with the one inch grid if anyone wants it.)

 

[Jenrick]

Correct on you assessment of the goal of bullseye shooting. Also correct on how shots on the line are scored. The shooter always gets the higher value if the line is broken in anyway by the shot hole.

Nice targets BTW, going to print some out and take them to the range.

-Jenrick

 

[mikemyers]

......Nice targets BTW, going to print some out and take them to the range......

Thanks - did those in a hurry. I did a "single" first, but then doubled up as that's good enough for how I've been shooting (3" to 4" grouping). I can post the "single" target as well, if anyone is interested.

Having calculated both the NRA "score" and the CEP, it is far, far easier to do the NRA points calculation. There's only 10 shots though, so it would take several targets to get a real "feel" for how well a person is doing. With CEP, you can shoot 10, 15, 50, or whatever number of bullets you prefer, up to the point where you can no longer tell where the bullets are going. CEP needs "at least" some number of shots (my gut feeling is 15), but once you know the CEP value, it shouldn't change very much no matter how many shots you fire.


Gosh, all this stuff is so.... "addicting"! The more I do, the more I want to do!

 

[Saleen322]

National Match Course

The National Match course is 30 rounds and the B2 target is only used for the slow fire part. The slow fire stage generally has the lowest scores of the match. If you can shoot a service pistol ("Ball Gun") in compliance with the rules into even the low 90s, you are doing well. The B3 is used for the timed and rapid fire stages and usually have markedly higher scores than slow fire.

The nice thing about conventional pistol is you can accurately track your progress and compare your skills to anyone else in the country as all are shot under the same standards. YMMV

 

[Jenrick]

One thing to remember is NRA ranking is based off of your average over several matches. I don't recall the exact number now, I just use your average over the last 100 rounds. Keeps it simple.

-Jenrick

 

[rskent]

I think browningguy said it best,

Group size doesn't matter if it's in the wrong place.

I don't think it matters how tight a group you shoot or how fast you can shoot, if the rounds don't go where you need them to go.
If you are aiming for the ten ring and you shoot ten fives then you just shot ten crappy shots. I am sorry to say, it happens.

 

[mikemyers]

.......I don't think it matters how tight a group you shoot or how fast you can shoot, if the rounds don't go where you need them to go........

I'm not going to try to change anyone's mind about this, but for slow-fire target shooting, the way I see it, even though what you're saying is technically correct, I think you've got it backwards.

a) Take a fellow who picks up a gun, and at 15 yards shoots his best, a two inch group, of 20 shots.

b) Take another fellow, who shoots his best, a ten inch group, also with 20 shots.


By adjusting his point of aim, the first shooter can easily move that 2" grouping directly over the bullseye. Or, someone else can adjust the sights for him if he doesn't know how.

Now take the second guy - whose group is perfectly scattered around the bullseye, but the shots are spread out in a ten inch group. I suggest that without a calculator, nobody would even be able to figure out where the center of his group is, and for that matter, nothing he can do is going to improve his shooting until he gets his group size down.

----------------------------------------------------------------

Once a group size is established, anyone can move it around as desired. Anyone can adjust the sights until the group is properly centered. But with shots splattered all over, it's sort of meaningless.


I can't think of a scenario for slow-fire shooting, where it doesn't take more skill and practice and effort to shoot a small group, than it takes to "move" a group until it's centered over a bullseye.


All I'm saying, is for target shooting, accuracy without precision is not good, but neither is precision without accuracy. Accuracy is relatively easy to accomplish. Precision is anything but easy.


..............and in no way am I talking about self-defense, or even steel plate shooting. For both, you need both accuracy and precision, but no matter how much precision the shooter is able to do, it's all wasted if all those precise shots miss the target.

 

[MrBorland]

What you offered is partly correct, Mike. One needs to be able to shoot precisely before they can shoot accurately. But if you're going to monitor your progress while tracking your scores vis á vis NRA classifications, your groups need to be centered around the 10-ring.

Secondly, when your shooting becomes more "practical", you need to hit what you're aiming at, and you need to do so the first time. No re-shoots allowed. In competition, a precise but inaccurate group goes on record as a poor score. In a SD encounter, the consequence can be more serious.

Precision is your foundation, and needs constant tending, but without accuracy, you'll be limited to shooting slow small groups by yourself at your local range. There's a world of shooting available beyond that.

 

[mgmorden]

By adjusting his point of aim, the first shooter can easily move that 2" grouping directly over the bullseye.

If he was capable of that, then he should have done so, no? You can't really compare to what a shooter says he can do. No pistol discipline that I'm aware of really cares about group size. That's more of a benchrest rifle thing.

If the goal is to hit as close as possible to the bullseye and you don't achieve that then you have failed that particular test.

And as stated - different disciplines test different skills. Bullseye tends to favor accuracy to a large degree, so they do things like shoot at 50 yards. In 3 years of shooting USPSA I've seen a target at 50 yards exactly once, and every person who visited that stage was complaining about it.

On the other hand, "rapid fire" in Bullseye is 2 seconds per shot. In USPSA that's slower than molasses. For most established shooters they can fire 4-5 shots in 2 seconds (and some can do a lot faster than that). Then again their "A" zone (perfect hit) is also in the same ballpark of size as the entire Bullseye taret. USPSA's scoring works into what's called a hit factor which translates to "points per second". You have to balance speed and accuracy (and power - I'll skip the complicated explanation on it but you get more points for shooting a .40S&W compared to a 9mm for example).

If you're interested in testing your skills I'd say pick a sport that you have an interest in and go out and give it a try. Each one will have some form of performance grading.

 

[Kleanbore]

..............and in no way am I talking about self-defense, or even steel plate shooting. For both, you need both accuracy and precision, but no matter how much precision the shooter is able to do, it's all wasted if all those precise shots miss the target.

Actually, for defensive shooting, you need the right balance of speed and accuracy and precision, and that balance will vary with the circumstances.

 

[mikemyers]

If he was capable of that, then he should have done so, no? You can't really compare to what a shooter says he can do. No pistol discipline that I'm aware of really cares about group size. That's more of a benchrest rifle thing.

The shooter was me, and several years ago, I read this page, all about CPE and how to use it:
http://www.ctmuzzleloaders.com/ctml_experiments/accuracy/accuracy.html
Maybe nobody else cared or cares for it, but that became my goal, first to get my 15-yard groups to under 4", then to under 3", and my current goal, under 2". You and others may think it's foolish, but to me it has been very helpful - although I'm now getting to want to do the things Mr. Borland does so well. I did adjust the sights a few times, but knowing I could do it so easily made it seem far less important than bringing down my group size. ....to me.

....And as stated - different disciplines test different skills. Bullseye tends to favor accuracy to a large degree, so they do things like shoot at 50 yards. In 3 years of shooting USPSA I've seen a target at 50 yards exactly once, and every person who visited that stage was complaining about it.....

Not sure why anyone would complain - I think it would be great! I'd expect my results at 50 yards to be roughly three times worse than at 15. Lots of new stuff to learn..... I can't do that at the ranges I usually go to, but maybe if I go to an outdoor rifle range....

On the other hand, "rapid fire" in Bullseye is 2 seconds per shot. In USPSA that's slower than molasses. ....... I'll skip the complicated explanation on it but you get more points for shooting a .40S&W compared to a 9mm for example).

Unfortunately, my indoor range has signs plastered all over, saying no rapid fire. I think I found a nearby place where I can do this though. I've watched Mr. Borland's video recordings over and over, and finally tried in slow motion - which shows that he does the same things we all do, carefully aiming every shot, but he is so good and so fast and so smooth it seems to look like he never stops to aim. .....please do explain that complicated explanation, as it sound interesting.

If you're interested in testing your skills I'd say pick a sport that you have an interest in and go out and give it a try. Each one will have some form of performance grading.

Someone suggested I try the NRA targets, which is why I got interested in them. Before, I just used the CPE data, set a goal, and worked at it. I have doubts that I'll ever get down to a 2" group at 15 yards, but I would have said the same thing last year about a 3" group.


With a B-2 target, I'd take it home, and add up the points.
With a CPE target, I'd enter all the data in my computer, and get one specific number back saying exactly how good my precision was(n't). And it would also tell me exactly how far I had to move my sights, to center the group exactly over the bullseye. Sometimes I did that, and other times I left it until later.