Targets

[MrBorland]

That seeing the change of color is different than seeing a white hole in the black bullseye on a paper target. Using a grid target on white paper you do not see the hole and make no corrections if it is off??

Or you are just shooting at a target and then go down range and see if you hit it.

The game here is shooting for small groups, not for an actual score. Small groups are a measure of good and consistent execution.

When shooting groups, then, you're not interested in making adjustments during a string of fire. You're establishing a good sight picture for each shot, which includes the target, but physical focus remains on the front sight and mental focus on executing the shot well. Peeking at the target takes your focus away from these, so the point here is no matter what target you use, it's best not to look at the target between shots during a string. ShootNCs just scream at you to peek. Whichever target you use, look at it after your string is completed. And it should simply confirm what you already know.

When shooting for an actual score, though, you don't have the luxury of shooting a full group before making adjustments. You need to adjust after a single hit, which is why it's important to be able to call your shot: If it lands an inch left, you must absolutely know that's where your true POA was when you cleanly broke the shot. Otherwise, you'll just be chasing shots, and your score will suffer. This is one reason why formal target competition isn't the same as shooting groups.

 

[Rule3]

The game here is shooting for small groups, not for an actual score. Small groups are a measure of good and consistent execution.

When shooting groups, then, you're not interested in making adjustments during a string of fire. You're establishing a good sight picture for each shot, which includes the target, but physical focus remains on the front sight and mental focus on executing the shot well. Peeking at the target takes your focus away from these, so the point here is no matter what target you use, it's best not to look at the target between shots during a string. ShootNCs just scream at you to peek. Whichever target you use, look at it after your string is completed. And it should simply confirm what you already know.

When shooting for an actual score, though, you don't have the luxury of shooting a full group before making adjustments. You need to adjust after a single hit, which is why it's important to be able to call your shot: If it lands an inch left, you must absolutely know that's where your true POA was when you cleanly broke the shot. Otherwise, you'll just be chasing shots, and your score will suffer. This is one reason why formal target competition isn't the same as shooting groups.

OK, that explanation makes more sense to me.

 

[buck460XVR]

Peeking at the target takes your focus away from these, so the point here is no matter what target you use, it's best not to look at the target between shots during a string.

I believe this is the just of this whole discussion. I've never looked at the Shoot N Cs as competition type targets, but as reactive targets for fun plinking. Similar to tin cans, steel gongs and bowling pins. They work well for teaching new shooters because they give instant gratification and feedback. No different that any other job, one needs to use the correct tool for the application. If one is pulling their head and peeking before following thru with the shot, it is not the fault of the target. No different than in golf and blaming the fairway for giving you such a good view of where the ball lands. Focus on the task at hand. Why is it so many Saturday carpenters hit their thumb? Because they are peeking at their thumb while swinging the hammer, instead of focusing on the nail....and hitting where they are looking. Why do so many average hunters make poor shots on big bucks, but always make good shots on small ones? 'Cause they are peeking at the horns on the big bucks while making a shot. Good golfers, good carpenters and good hunters all know how to keep their focus regardless of the distractions. Good shooters do too.

 

[murf]

"... you never count your money when you are sitting at the table. there will be time enough for counting when the dealing is done." - The Gambler

focus on the game at hand.

murf

 

[BobWright]

Personally I prefer the "Shoot-n-See" stick-ons:



Bob Wright

 

[Hangingrock]

Typical of what I do, which can be viewed as good, bad, and or indifferent. This isn't spitting distance either.

 

[Ritchie]

cheap targets

I have been making targets using a pad of sketch paper (size of your choice), a cardboard sheet with a hole, (again, size of your choice), and red or black spray paint.

 

[Hondo 60]

Very interesting thought processes.
I LIKE the Shoot-n-See targets.

The key to good shooting (as with anything) is to consistency.

I guess I (personally) don't change the process just because I use a different target.
That certainly doesn't make me an expert, nor am I any better than anyone else.

I just really can ignor the target until I WANT to see how I shot.
I'm very old school in that 80% of my shooting is with revolvers.
So I shoot my 6 & then check the target.

 

[MICHAEL T]

And I thought I was to blame for my terrible shooting Its the target fault . I like that idea

 

[joem1945]

"I prefer a 1.5 to 2.5 inch neon orange dot on a plain white sheet of paper. I get them by the roll of 1000 off eBay. They are pricing labels."

Try heavy brown wrapping paper instead of white. I get much better sight picture with that.

 

[Hardtarget]

I'm putting a 6"shoot-n-see centered on a 12"black target for 200 yds. Through the scope I can see the hits. If the light is good I see them through the rifle scope. I can check with the spotting scope other times.

I've decided to only use standard targets for pistol and 100 yd rifle. just been trying to make myself work on my sight alignment and trigger control. This after several years of shoot-n-see target use. I made this change of thinking in the last month...because I was noticing my focus shift to the target. Having read comments here I paid attention to this and realized how much worse my shooting was.

Sure is easy to drift into bad habits...when I'm just out shooting by myself. I think I get lazy.

Maybe this change will push me the right direction.

Mark

 

[BCRider]

Speaking of being distracted by the targets with the coloured splotches.....

It's not only the targets that can distract a shooter. One of my cowboy action buddies frequently misses the 5th shot on the first revolver. He KNOWS why too. He's mentally putting the gun away and reaching for the second one so he ends up pulling down and missing under the target. He's done this about a dozen times now and kicks himself each time.... but he still does it if his focus slips at all.

It certainly fits in with the sort of shooter that shoots a round then checks the target. The urge to see where it hit can easily lead to the loss of a proper follow through and a break in the focus of attention right at the most important moment as the trigger breaks.

 

[MrBorland]

He's mentally putting the gun away and reaching for the second one so he ends up pulling down and missing under the target.

Yup - Whether ShootNCs or some other brain fade, being in the past or the future, rather than the present, will bite you in the rear.

Something to tattoo on our brains: The only shot that matters is the one you're now taking.

 

[sawdeanz]

I think MrBorderland made some good points!

I also wanted to share my recent experience. After shooting with a friend struggling to put handgun rounds on target. His string of fires would consistently start on target, wander off target and then back on. I asked if he was checking his target after every shot, and suggested that he shoot 5 or 10 rounds without checking the target. Seems he never thought of it that way and immediately his holes started to look like a recognizable group, and was much smaller.

The experience also emphasized to me that there was a difference between practicing the right and wrong way. Being a new shooter he had done quite a bit of practicing on his own yet until we had the chance to shoot together he seemed to be struggling with consistency. I was really glad to have connected with him and now we are making plans to meet regularly.

 

[mikemyers]

Because of the advice mentioned here, I put away my Shoot-n-see targets, and have only been using ordinary paper targets. The way I used to do this, was shoot five shots, examine what I did, then do 5 more, etc., until I reached 15. I was thinking the other day that if the advice in this thread is good, as I think it is, why bother checking at all? So starting yesterday, I've been shooting 15 shots at a target, five at a time from my 22, and two at a time from my S&W Model 19. When I've shot 15 rounds, only then do I bring the target back (or walk to it) to check how well I did(n't) do.

Two things were more apparent:
1 - my groups looked more like a round group, spread out or in close depending on how steady I felt, and

2 - it was easy for me to see how I need to adjust the sights because the shots were in a group.

My group size depends more on how steady I am now, than any other factor - and the more I practice, the better I think I'll get. My group size seems to be smaller doing things this way than how I used to do it, probably because I shoot 15 shots the same way, so if I'm doing something right or wrong, at least it's identical for all 15 shots.

(I do have this overwhelming curiosity to see how well I really did for each shot, even though I am starting to "feel" I know where the shots went. With the 22 it doesn't matter, because I can't see the holes in the black bull anyway, and with the 38 Special it doesn't matter, because the target is so blurry I usually can't see the holes either. ....but I can't get rid of the desire to try to see them.... )

 

[murf]

Turn the target around to face the backing. Shoot your shots at the blank target. Now you have a mirror image record of your performance (and instant gratification of your group).

Murf

 

[mikemyers]

Murf - 'gratification'??? Years ago, I used to shoot at those huge blue 'smurf' targets that the range gave me. When I finished, by my standards back then, I was sort of "gratified" until I took a look at the back of the target. Ugh!!! It was depressing, not gratifying at all. Then I wondered why I was wasting so much time and money at something I couldn't do.

A little later, the entire six inch target was, in effect, my "bullseye", and I was happy just to get the holes in the target at all, and not on the backing board.

If I had to do it all over again, I might actually do what you suggested, with the shoot-n-see on the back, and a big "X" indicating where I should aim (drawn with a large magic marker, so I could see the "X", which would be all blurry).

I might suggest that to my relative - but he's going to wonder if I've finally lost it completely. !!! (I must have lost it, as what you wrote actually makes sense to me!)

 

[g.willikers]

Calling your shots and knowing where they hit without seeing the holes:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9q1XC8k-tZc

 

[mikemyers]

Excellent video!!

I played it at normal speed, and watched the video.

I also used the "tool" button at the bottom right to play back at 1/4 speed, which made the slow motion video all that much more obvious. It was fascinating to compare the sight picture with the target - both with iron sights, and then with the red dot sights - as the gun was being fired over and over.

Another thought - in my mind, I know that if the front sight is off to the left side of the rear sight when I shoot, the bullet will land off to the left, and if the front sight is above the rear sight, the bullet will go high, but seeing this in the video you posted illustrated that in a completely different way. I guess I've "seen" this all these years, but after watching this video, I can more easily picture what's going to happen on the target, instead of "what the sights were doing". Hard to explain what I mean, and I didn't really notice this until I saw the video in extreme slow motion.

I just looked through the sights of my revolver, and just as I used to, I see where the front sight is in relation to the back sight, but this time I also "saw" where the bullet should land. For me, that is very new. (Maybe for everyone else here, it's obvious.)

Thank you for posting!

(Anybody here know how much the muzzle rises as a result of the recoil, before the bullet actually leaves the muzzle? At 15 or 25 yards are we talking about thousandths of an inch, fractions of an inch, or ??? And a related question, how much would this vary, if at all, due to how tightly one grips the gun.)

 

[g.willikers]

The amount of recoil depends as much on the shooter as anything else.
The better the control the less the muzzle rises.
Compare a novice shooter to an accomplished one.
Big difference in the amount of muzzle rise, whatever the gun and caliber.

 

[murf]

the whole point of the blank target is to shoot at the target and not worry about where to aim. a big fat "X" in the middle defeats the purpose. just shoot at the target and don't worry where your shots are landing (one less thing).

murf

 

[Delford]

I shoulda read this before spending $5 on Shoot n C targets. Using my newly acquired Kahr PM45 I had practiced double taps on a low and high target (BassPro NRA 50' Fast Pistol). I was moving and pausing at 7 yards, 5 yards, and 3 yards to fire two rounds. The long trigger pull and full reset make double taps tough. Since the mag holds 5 I have to +1 before each pass. I'll take that challenge again next trip, but after 90 rounds I put up a shoot n C and shot from 7 yards.

Like folks said, the target changes how you shoot. I fired quickly and put three near the X. Then I was distracted by what I saw and the other 7 shots spread out with two at the bottom, one just nicking the target. Getting the snappy .45 back on target will continue to require practice. I did learn to use the sticky dots here so I'll use the targets for my Mosin and not my Ruger P345 or the Kahr. Very informative discussion. Thanks.

 

[mikemyers]

the whole point of the blank target is to shoot at the target and not worry about where to aim.......

I flunked my course in 'intuition', so let me ask something. If I go to the range again this weekend, presumably I will be given one of those huge blue 'smurf' targets once again. Following your advice, I will turn it around, and shoot at the back side without trying to aim at something, as there will be nothing to aim at. I guess it's logical that I will more or less aim at the center of the target, unless you tell me not even to do that....

Two thoughts...

If all I'm doing, is shooting, with no regard for where the bullets will hit, why put up a target at all, and just fire at the backstop?

If I finish 15 rounds, or 50 rounds, and bring the target back to me, what, if anything, would I be looking for? Or, do I post it here, and you'll tell me something else I've never noticed before?

 

[Delford]

Even on targets with lines at a range I have to pay for I aim at different areas of the target to achieve groups and use all of the target to get my $1 worth.

 

[MrBorland]

If all I'm doing, is shooting, with no regard for where the bullets will hit, why put up a target at all, and just fire at the backstop?

If I finish 15 rounds, or 50 rounds, and bring the target back to me, what, if anything, would I be looking for?

Shooting at a big piece of blank paper is often a drill used to get your mind off the target and back on the execution of the shot.

Though a conventional sight picture includes the fuzzy target in the background, you might be surprised that your grouping on a blank target isn't as bad as you might've predicted. It supports the claim implicit in this thread that shot execution, not the target itself, is the bigger component of the good shot.

BTW, if doing the drill just to focus on proper shot execution, yes, you can just fire into the backstop, though it may make range officers nervous if they don't know where you're shooting.