Taurus Handguns

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Another thread got me thinking. Based on 2013 revenues (some public, some private [est'd]), the big players in the firearms industry are . . .

- S&W ~ $600M
- Ruger ~ $600M
- Taurus ~ $800M
- Remington ~ $1.2B <---pretty much long guns
- Beretta ~ $870M
- Mossberg's ~ $200M <---pretty much long guns
- Colt's ~$125M
- SA ~$100M
- Glock ~ $500M <--- est'd 2013 based on ~$408M USD in 2012 & value of USD.

Got me thinking about Taurus and the number of units that they actually sell, hence, the number of firearms out in the market. It's pretty safe to say that the cost of a Taurus is somewhere around 20% to 30% less than S&W, Ruger...etc. So, Taurus sales dollars are higher and unit price is lower. Would it be safe to say that there are more Taurus handguns out there than any of the other large manufacturers?

Maybe that's why we hear so many more complaints about Taurus handguns than other makes? Just a thought...

Actually, those complaints are becoming less these days...
 
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Another thread got me thinking. Based on 2013 revenues (some public, some private [est'd]), the big players in the firearms industry are . . .

- S&W ~ $600M
- Ruger ~ $600M
- Taurus ~ $800M
- Remington ~ $1.2B <---pretty much long guns
- Beretta ~ $870M
- Mossberg's ~ $200M <---pretty much long guns
- Colt's ~$125M
- SA ~$100M

Got me thinking about Taurus and the number of units that they actually sell, hence, the number of firearms out in the market. It's pretty safe to say that the cost of a Taurus is somewhere around 20% to 30% less than S&W, Ruger...etc. So, Taurus sales dollars are higher and unit price is lower. Would it be safe to say that there are more Taurus handguns out there than any of the other large manufacturers?

Maybe that's why we hear so many more complaints about Taurus handguns than other makes? Just a thought...

Actually, those complaints are becoming less these days...


The reason you hear about so many complaints is because their QC stinks and the general quality of many of their firearms is poor.

It seems like your post is trying to prove a point. It doesn't seem like you are wanting conversation you just are making a statement.

As far as complaints becoming less, no I don't think so at all. I still see the same amount of people get burned and complain as ever.

There are many people that will accept the lower quality of Taurus and be happy. That's good, there is a market for that. Some people expect more, they don't buy Taurus.
 
Nope. Not trying to prove anything. It's just one way to look at it - by the numbers...'cause I'm a former bean counter.

You don't have to tell me about quality. I know that Taurus handguns have thinner finishes, triggers are grittier, and metal has rougher cuts. However, does that equate to functional flaws or cosmetic flaws?
 
the thing is, the finish isnt that bad, the finishing isnt that bad, the trigger isnt that bad.

its just that alot of those that complain about taurus base tehir complaints about a new in box, almost unfired smith and wesson or colt that left the factory in 1938.

even the big time collectors and shooters admit modern smith and wesson, any department, comes near the old days in quality.

taurus is into any market it can hit into. therefore they have interesting sales figures.
 
Admittedly a sample of one, but I rather like my 991 Tracker in 22 Mag. It's fairly smooth, locks up tight, is rather heavy (and therefore stable), and its finish is pretty nice. Every now the cylinder turn is a touch stiff.

Perhaps due to weight and length of barrel, it is also pretty accurate - way moreso than I.

And as if it matters, I didn't think the OP was trying to push any particular agenda; just floating a plausible hypothesis about some data. I actually found it intriguing myself.

I might suggest that a good test of this hypothesis about whether complaints are higher with one brand or another would be return/repair rates (e.g. % of arms returned for warranty work). This would seem to be the most direct measure. This said, I am dubious that any company would be particularly happy to release such data, but I could be wrong.

Have a great day all.
 
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That is a great point about firearm companies not sharing their defect rates.

I was surprised about Taurus's total sales being so high. In my opinion the quality of their product for the price represents a value to a lot of people.

Interesting topic. Thanks.
 
Interesting Taurus post. I own a few Taurus Revolvers, and a PT99 9mm. All of them have been flawless, and would compare favorably with any similar model from S&W, Ruger, or Beretta, as I own many of those also. That being said, I also sell guns.
I have sold many Taurus products which for the most part have been great. The ones that have been a problem were so obviously flawed they never should have made it past QC. It does seem that QC has been steadily improving over the last few years, and their customer service has definitely improved.
Without naming names, I will say that Taurus overall has more issues than most major manufacturers, and a lot less than some mfgs that have stellar reputations among the members here.
 
I have had issues with three of them. It's been posted before and I don't feel like telling the story again. I have new production S&Ws, Sigs, Glocks , and Rugers that are all much better quality.
 
It's been posted before and I don't feel like telling the story again.
Then why bring it up?

I have new production S&Ws, Sigs, Glocks , and Rugers that are all much better quality
.
And I have some new production S&Ws, Glocks and Rugers that really aren't "all much better quality ..." (I cannot, of course, compare any new SIG to a Taurus.) In fact, I've had problematic new S&W revolvers and autos and some truly crappy Ruger revolvers and autos.

At any rate, it's great that some can afford higher-end handguns, but Taurus does consistently provide decent quality handguns for those that do not choose to buy more expensive firearms. The fact is, there are simply an awful lot of folks out there who cannot afford "better" firearms -- for them, Taurus will be the best gun they'll ever own.

While I have much prefer Colt's, SIGs and S&Ws (with the occasional Walther, Springfield Armory or H&K thrown in) for production handguns, and have little experience with any Taurus products produced after about 1995 (except for two nice PT-145 Milleniums picked up on a whim that have been stellar), I find that much of the anti-Taurus bias I encounter is simply brand snobbishness.

Any internet forum thread remotely related to Taurus products will bring out legions of bashers, many of who have never actually owned one.
 
I was going to try and make a point but I keep hitting a brick wall. I cannot find how much Glock made last year, how many firearms they produced, accessories, nor merchandising.

We know that most Glocks cost around $75 to make and retail anywhere between $400 - $550. This is a fairly average or cheaper price than comparable firearms in the same field.

We also know that they've produced over 5 million firearms in the past 30 years.
I don't see anywhere near the amount of QC complaints compared to Taurus. Glock also stands by their product, so naturally they also have way less Customer Service complaints.

Any company that is proud of their product, stands behind it with a good warranty, has great QC and follows up with excellent Customer Service is naturally going to have far fewer complaints from their customers. Another great example of this is Leopold.

Most disparaging remarks made about Glock are about their fanboy crowd, how ugly they look and that they're "plastic". Compare this to Taurus.

FYI, this is coming from a person that doesn't own any of the three products mentioned, so I feel I'm pretty unbiased (non-biased?) This is just my personal research, experience from friends, reading of different forums and general love of good firearms. I appreciate a good product and a company that can proudly stand behind it.

Given the opportunity or having the money to own said products... well it's pretty obvious where I'm going with this. In fact when I finally can find employment again I hope to purchase a G17 or 19 and scope my 30-06 with a Leopold for all the reasons stated above.
 
Good thread though. It gets the mind thinking about why we hear complaints, if they're valid, the rate at which we hear them, etc...

I've often said in the past that with many things, the addition of the internet has made issues that have always been there, are now more prevalent to us. They may not have increased with how often they occur, rather we now have the ability to hear about them more often. This goes for almost anything. We started seeing this trend with the addition of 24 hour news networks. A perfect example is the perception that violent crime is an epidemic, when in fact rates have been steadily falling the past 30 years. It's just being reported in our faces so much that it just seems that way. This is why finding per capita rates is so important.

Good thread man. :thumbs up:
 
Taurus does seem to suffer from quality control issues. I think this is inevitable with any company that competes on price. Even if they have a lower labor cost, labor is still a major expense for any manufacturer.

They also seem to have some model lines that are affordable, decent, and are really hard to find complaints about.

IMO, they're fairly middle of the road, and if you pick the right gun, or get one that doesn't have issues in any case, they can be a good value. Their sales numbers aren't really that surprising.
 
Then why bring it up?



.

And I have some new production S&Ws, Glocks and Rugers that really aren't "all much better quality ..." (I cannot, of course, compare any new SIG to a Taurus.) In fact, I've had problematic new S&W revolvers and autos and some truly crappy Ruger revolvers and autos.



At any rate, it's great that some can afford higher-end handguns, but Taurus does consistently provide decent quality handguns for those that do not choose to buy more expensive firearms. The fact is, there are simply an awful lot of folks out there who cannot afford "better" firearms -- for them, Taurus will be the best gun they'll ever own.



While I have much prefer Colt's, SIGs and S&Ws (with the occasional Walther, Springfield Armory or H&K thrown in) for production handguns, and have little experience with any Taurus products produced after about 1995 (except for two nice PT-145 Milleniums picked up on a whim that have been stellar), I find that much of the anti-Taurus bias I encounter is simply brand snobbishness.



Any internet forum thread remotely related to Taurus products will bring out legions of bashers, many of who have never actually owned one.


Why bring it up ? Because I can. It wasMY money that was wasted on those pieces of junk and that gives me the right to say what I want about them.

Sorry if it makes you and that others don't like your brand, but it's not exactly hidden knowledge that Taurus has had troubles for years.

It's funny that every time someone says something negative about Taurus you have the defenders IMMEDIATELY jump up and call them liars. Yes, that's what you did. Implying that they never owned the guns they talk about is accusing them of lying.

Your credibility is non existent with a comment like that.
 
Taurus does seem to suffer from quality control issues. I think this is inevitable with any company that competes on price. Even if they have a lower labor cost, labor is still a major expense for any manufacturer.

They also seem to have some model lines that are affordable, decent, and are really hard to find complaints about.

IMO, they're fairly middle of the road, and if you pick the right gun, or get one that doesn't have issues in any case, they can be a good value. Their sales numbers aren't really that surprising.

I think this is pretty much spot on. It's all about variance and thinking about the whole process rather than just parts, methinks. If one has, either because of a) product design (i.e. designing product that's easy to get right) or b) very good process design (usually made easier by having a product that's easy to build right due to good design, but not necessarily) a great and well-built product with little variance, it's less likely to get complaints. Having great CS response is obviously made easier by not putting pressure on it by having a) and b).

Plausible examples (though there are certainly others) are Glock for simple design that perhaps eases building it well and Henry for a design that's a bit more complex but when one takes one apart, or notices how tightly the wood fits and how smooth it is there's obviously a very good manufacturing process design in play. I've never had a problem with a Glock, but I've heard good things about their CS; I have had one problem with a Henry that was fixed in a "wow...just wow" manner (actually I once had something with a Henry that wasn't even its fault that it fixed in a "wow...just wow" manner). Of course, when you have next to no variance in your product and process this means that your CS will naturally have less pressure on it, and can be more helpful/responsive. The proverbial "virtuous circle" in action.

It makes sense, then, that some Taurus stuff will be very good and others not so much - variance. Also, because of this variance, there's a bit more pressure on the CS system, which also has some variance of its own. This variance also impacts the price Taurus is able to extract from the market for its products, just as lower variance allows Henry/Glock (and others) to extract the price they do from the market.

In another industry, the example of Snapper mowers and why it decided to pull its line from Wal-Mart is instructive. Before anybody gets excited I like and shop at Wal-Mart, but I have no delusions that they emphasize price and therefore are willing to accept a bit more variance in quality of what is sold, and tend to use their market power to put a lot of pressure on their suppliers to get price down. Snapper pulled out because it couldn't make its products at a level of quality it desired (must start on first pull, etc.) while meeting the price point Wal-Mart wanted.

There's a book by Charles Fishman called "The Wal-Mart Effect" where I read about this. It's an instructive book by the way. It's not an anti-Wal-Mart screed, but it does take a detailed look about how Wal-Mart has affected the way consumers think about price and quality, and the impact that this has on manufacturing and where/how it's done.

This is not necessarily bad, but can be, depending on perspective. As another example (from the book), think about underarm deodorant. It used to come in cardboard boxes; now it has a little shrink wrap, either around the whole container (especially when you buy a two-pack) or around the joint between the cap and body of the container for tamper-evidence. Wal-Mart was a key driver on this; it realized that the product container was actually more sturdy than the cardboard box it came in (and the box obviously made the package bigger and therefore took up more shelf space, added more weight/bulk to shipments, etc.) so questioned the utility of having the cardboard box. Wal-Mart's so big that manufacturers complied with the design change request (and probably saw the logic as well), which means that all retailers now sell underarm deodorant in this type of packaging. Reduces waste so a good thing, yes? The guy that used to work at the cardboard box factory may beg to differ.

Sorry for length. This thread has obviously set my hamster running ;-).
 
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I was going to try and make a point but I keep hitting a brick wall. I cannot find how much Glock made last year, how many firearms they produced, accessories, nor merchandising.

$408M USD in 2012. I'm guessing somewhere around $500M USD in 2013. Strictly a guess.
 
Would it be safe to say that there are more Taurus handguns out there than any of the other large manufacturers?

Maybe that's why we hear so many more complaints about Taurus handguns than other makes? Just a thought...

I think that is a reasonable conclussion, but is irrelevant in my mind. Out of three Taurus revolvers I have shot, all three had major issues and did not function as they should. That's a 100% failure rate in my case, of a very limited sample. So for me, it makes no difference. I also think that there is likely more stories out there because of the internet. Problems are told far and wide now.

Honestly, I think the more guns a manufacturer produces and sells, the more cost savings activities they will engage in. Thus more defective guns will make it to the market polace. There seem to be more complaints about all the major manufacturers than there were a few years ago (except maybe H&K :D). Increased sales is the reason.

It's like crime. As population grows, the number of crimes will likely increase due to there just being more people out there who are potentially up to no good. But the per capita crime rate will remain the same or fall as because the population in general increases.
 
Taurus guns are like KIA cars. They're cheaper than the competition and still largely perform most of what the average "driver" needs and wants. Yes they have QC issues in my opinion. But so has Springfield and Remington as of late, oh wait and the Glock 42 issues I think there were.

In the end, you get what you pay for. I like Taurus handguns from time to time and I still have my PT99 which has been a "good" gun. It does not shoot as accurately as my Ruger SR9, and my Sig 228 West German production completely outclasses it in performance, but it is a "good" gun.

I've shot the PT145 on a few occasions and it handled as well as the Glock 30 I was shooting at the same time more or less. Still I'd go with the Glock 30 unless I was buying a fully functional PT145 for $250 or less.

Taurus has its place and it offers a lot of variety, but I'll only pick up their guns used and cheap.

Granted the only NIB I'd buy right now is a 625JM so I'm not the best source.

Taurus will continue to have QC issues in my opinion but as they buy up companies like Diamondback (which now have AR platforms for sale) they will continually grow as a market dominator for the new gunnies coming in and in the making. Which doesn't really bother me because that will mean the rest of the companies will have to up their game in price and performance, i.e. Ruger's SR9e (the economy model of their SR9 which I have to admit looks like a "good" gun I'd love to pick up for $300).
 
I've had issues from 2 firearms. One was my wifes Taurus PT 709 and one was my Glock 19 gen 3. The 709 had light strike issues right out of the box. Took it back to the LGS I bought it from and they sent to Taurus for me and I had it back in about a month. Since it's return it's been flawless.

The G19 had BTF issues and Glocks CS sucked in my opinion. You got a different awswer depending on who you spoke with. One person said "you need the new ejector" the next person said " we don't put the 30274 ejector in the gen 3s so it must be the ammo." I sent it in and they did nothing and returned it. Sent it back again and they replaced it at my request and the new one does the same thing. I put the new 30274 ejector in myself and it's better and with use hopefully it goes away.

BTW I also have a Diamondback DB15 and I love that AR. It's been awsome. It eats Tula and brass.

I wouldn't hesitate to buy Taurus again because their CS is top notch... expect the crazy hold time and the fact you can't buy spare parts. I carry the 709 on Hot days where the G19 is to much to carry.

I think the key here is to find a LGS that will send the firearm back for you if you have an issue because they do the leg work and you'll never pay shipping charges. Oh and Glock will try to charge you shipping from what I heard unless you raise 3 kinds of hell.
 
I've a fair number of Taurus pistols, they offer some interesting designs. I've been generally satisfied with all of them and never needed to send any back for repair. But only my PT-92 (which I prefer to shoot over my Beretta 92 because of the SA thumb safety) and 9mm PT-1911 have multiple thousands of rounds through them.

My main complaints about Taurus is too many models come and go which can make spare mags an issue, reports about customer service and support range from awful to great, and they don't appear to be very good about selling replacement parts leaving little option but to send them back (which is terrible if they don't pay the shipping because of the FedEx/UPS gouging when shipping handguns).
 
I have a 4 yr. old PT1911 which after 50 rnds. poped off the ejector. Sent it back to Taurus UPS and paid standard shipping (told them it was a box of candy) 3 mos. later got it back repaired and no problems since. Customer service sucked then and I don't know if it's better now. Otherwise it shoots where I point it and has been problem free.
 
Sorry if it makes you and that others don't like your brand,
My brand? Apparently you didn't read my post very carefully.

It's funny that every time someone says something negative about Taurus you have the defenders IMMEDIATELY jump up and call them liars. Yes, that's what you did. Implying that they never owned the guns they talk about is accusing them of lying.
Eh, I don't thing I was leaping to defend Taurus, exactly, but whatever ... Anyway, I didn't imply, I flat-out stated that, on internet forums, many people spout negative tripe about brands they've never owned. Do you really want to disagree with me on this?
Your credibility is non existent with a comment like that.
My credibility is about the same as everyone else's around here ... it is the internet, after all. I apologize if you interpret my remarks as calling you a liar; I merely pointed out that Taurus (like Kimber and a couple other manufacturers) attracts legions of bashers. Am I wrong?

Anyway, as the OP pointed out, Taurus appears to sell more firearms (to consumers) than any other brand in this country. Especially since a large majority of its sales are presumably to the less-experienced firearms owners, it would stand to reason that there is a reason there might be more complaints about the products.

I have had some horrendous examples of higher-end production, semi-custom and even custom handguns, but I've never felt compelled to complain about them on the internet.
 
I'm batting .500 with Taurus products personally.

I have a M82 4" .38 that has been to the smith twice.
I have a 709 Slim that has never given a moments trouble.

So at a half and half rate I'll say this. They're okay for what they are, but if I had the funds I'd buy a Smith or Ruger 10 times out of 10.
 
I agree with O.A.'s observations.

Taurus has a large diverse product line some with innovative designs. Alas they are hampered by inconsistent quality control.

Earlier this year I posted three threads about problems I had with a M941 revolver. Briefly the first one was such a piece of junk Taurus replaced it with a new one within a week. The new one had a large metal burr on the inside of the sideplate that was rubbing against the trigger and last week the orange plastic insert on the front sight blade came loose.

I easily fixed both problems with a couple of file strokes on the burr and a few drops of Crazy Glue on the front sight insert. In spite of these minor problems I love this gun. It has fantastic accuracy with Speer Gold Dot ammo. But it is a very fair question to ask the average gun owner to get little things fixed by a gunsmith or to fix it themselves especially if they have to buy special tools like scr ewdrivers.

S&W has a lot of quality control issues, probably as many as Taurus, and the usual response is send it back to the factory. They brag about S&W's customer service but rarely criticize S&W for their lack of quality control.

As for Glock they make variations of the same design so the should have fewer q.c. issues.
 
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It's funny that every time someone says something negative about Taurus you have the defenders IMMEDIATELY jump up and call them liars

No, but it is funny that you did not bother checking out your guns before purchasing them. And that you seem to have only problems with one gun company and not others. Very strange.

And totally off topic, were do you get off using your location as "The Peoples Republic of IL", I live in the "State of Illinois" and if you don't like it them MOVE to some communist country, I am sure we will not miss you.

Jim
 
I owned 3 Taurus pistols(still have 2) and have had nothing but good experiences with them. PT940(sold), Judge, 455 revolver. I have had problems with a Walther PK380 and the Rem R51.
 
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