TC Icon Warlord
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Uncle Mike
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Haven't shot one yet, I have been promised the opportunity to wring one out for a few days but it has not transpired yet.
They are relatively new, they seem like they're going to be an excellent package, but a bit too expensive.IMO
They are relatively new, they seem like they're going to be an excellent package, but a bit too expensive.IMO
Didnt the Guns & Ammo show do a review on it, they said it would do 1/2 moa out of the box and that if the gun didnt do it at the factory it would be sent back. Do I believe that NO, I believe they will test it till it shoots moa then sell it. for the money they are gonna be asking I don't see it being worth it IMO. but I could be wrong its happened before
Olympus
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Guns and Ammo TV did a segment about it right after it was introduced at the SHOT Show I believe. Also, this month's edition of Guns and Ammo magazine has the gun on the cover and the featured article. I haven't read it yet though. I've been turned off by T/C's pricing lately and from what I've heard about this one, you can buy a beautiful walnut stocked Cooper for around the same money.
rossiscratch
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well Steve, in this case they'd be shooting it until it shot 0.5 moa unless they simply send fake targets with their rifles. My Icon field came with a target certified to .79 MOA (guaranteed for 1 moa) 3 shots with 80 gr federal SP, yes you read that right, not premium ammo by any means (cheapest .243 ammo available to me locally). It has never failed to shoot MOA for 3 shots and with my hand loads it does even better than with the federal SPs (surprise?, no). I also shot it with the 80 gr federal SPs and had no problem reproducing the factory's results.
There is another member, DIM, who has a precision hunter in .308 and he has shot some pretty amazing groups with his rifle (.25 moa or less 3 shot groups with his handloads iirc). He initially had an issue with the bolt, but he sent it in and received it back quickly.
Does anyone know what the cost of the Warlord is? It seems to be a pretty good package, but obviously price may be too high to justify it. That manners stock would cost about $650, badger bottom metal ($350 or so?), bedding system ($150 if you take it in), match grade barrel, adjustable trigger, lifetime warranty, and 0.5 MOA certification. In a custom build with a Rem 700 action you'd easily be looking around $2500 (probably more) for the same type of package minus the warranty and maybe the accuracy guarantee.
Price is the killer on the warlord, and I am willing to bet reproducing the 0.5 moa with this rifle and premium ammo would be dependent only on the person pulling the trigger.
Olympus, I think the cooper and the Warlord are aimed at two different sectors of the gun buying market. That being said, if I bought the cooper with a beautiful walnut stock it would probably sit in the safe because I would terrified of scratching the stock (I'd still like it). Also it would, at most, hold 5 rds while most of their actions are single shots (different sector?, yes). A more accurate comparison to a cooper would be the custom shop Icons with their fancy grade high gloss walnut stocks which cost $2500 and also offer the same .5 moa guarantee that cooper does (at that point it's a tough decision because the repeater coopers cost that much or more for a fancy walnut stock, tough decision for me anyway). The warlord is obviously marketed towards the tactical rifle crowd while the coopers are usually hunting oriented. I would have no problems getting the warlord dirty, but that's my opinion.
There is another member, DIM, who has a precision hunter in .308 and he has shot some pretty amazing groups with his rifle (.25 moa or less 3 shot groups with his handloads iirc). He initially had an issue with the bolt, but he sent it in and received it back quickly.
Does anyone know what the cost of the Warlord is? It seems to be a pretty good package, but obviously price may be too high to justify it. That manners stock would cost about $650, badger bottom metal ($350 or so?), bedding system ($150 if you take it in), match grade barrel, adjustable trigger, lifetime warranty, and 0.5 MOA certification. In a custom build with a Rem 700 action you'd easily be looking around $2500 (probably more) for the same type of package minus the warranty and maybe the accuracy guarantee.
Price is the killer on the warlord, and I am willing to bet reproducing the 0.5 moa with this rifle and premium ammo would be dependent only on the person pulling the trigger.
Olympus, I think the cooper and the Warlord are aimed at two different sectors of the gun buying market. That being said, if I bought the cooper with a beautiful walnut stock it would probably sit in the safe because I would terrified of scratching the stock (I'd still like it). Also it would, at most, hold 5 rds while most of their actions are single shots (different sector?, yes). A more accurate comparison to a cooper would be the custom shop Icons with their fancy grade high gloss walnut stocks which cost $2500 and also offer the same .5 moa guarantee that cooper does (at that point it's a tough decision because the repeater coopers cost that much or more for a fancy walnut stock, tough decision for me anyway). The warlord is obviously marketed towards the tactical rifle crowd while the coopers are usually hunting oriented. I would have no problems getting the warlord dirty, but that's my opinion.
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SpeedAKL
Member
It's got plenty of high-end features normally seen on custom guns from places like GA Precision and whatnot. If it can consistenty match the accuracy claims it will be a winner, particularly if it can come under $3k (a similarly-equipped custom gun will typically run $4-5k).
mgregg85
Member
Neat idea, awful mall ninja name.
Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
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Like all other 'tactical' turnbolts, it will become interesting when it's offered in .260 rem, 6.5-.284, 6.5x47, 6.5 creedmoor, or other 6.5 or 7mm chambering. Yet another big yawn from me to yet another tactical .308. And this from a BIG Icon fan.
This one is more interesting to me for use as a precision rifle - at least give it some looks and some more barrel length to get more oomph out of .308:
http://www.tcarms.com/firearms/icon_precision_hunter.php
And realistically, who's ever gonna need more than the 3+1 shots held by the Precision Hunter?
But...some more on the Warlord:
http://www.tacticalgunfan.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=221&Itemid=70
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=459150
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=112454
I don't think it's a *horrible* name, really. What choices did they have that weren't already taken?
This one is more interesting to me for use as a precision rifle - at least give it some looks and some more barrel length to get more oomph out of .308:
http://www.tcarms.com/firearms/icon_precision_hunter.php
And realistically, who's ever gonna need more than the 3+1 shots held by the Precision Hunter?
But...some more on the Warlord:
http://www.tacticalgunfan.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=221&Itemid=70
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=459150
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=112454
I don't think it's a *horrible* name, really. What choices did they have that weren't already taken?
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Yeah I've seen some of his posts...anything is possible but he is also claiming 2" groups at 500yds with the precision hunter, which is certified 1moa. Believe what you will on the internet, but I'm personally calling BS on doing this with any sort of consistency from a mass produced hunting rifle. Could he have shot 1 group that size? Of course, but I'll take the bet anytime if someone wants to go out to the range and start printing 2" groups at 500yds with a stock mass produced sporter weight rifle. I will win way more often than I'll lose that bet.
That aside, the warlord looks to be sweet. Whether it is a good deal depends on the price I guess, anyone know what they will be selling for?
Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
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jbech, the Precision Hunter is not a "sporter weight rifle".
atblis
Member
3 shot groups are meaningless. 5 shots or more...
Your right, I was thinking of the venture for some reason, the PH is more of a varmint weight. Fact is its still only moa certified(which is good, don't get me wrong), so someone consistently shooting 2" groups at 500 is something I'd be comfortable betting against.
Not only that, but that's getting into the price range of a GAP custom, which I'd probably prefer over the warlord.
rossiscratch
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5 shoots IS more telling, kinda. Everyone does different things to affect their groups. Like waiting in between shots for barrels to cool off, or using different kinds of rests or shooting positions. Some people can't shoot regardless. etc etc. So if all variables are the same and the person pulling the trigger knows what the heck they are doing comparing 5 shot groups would be extremely helpful. However, I could simply change the amount of time I spend waiting for my barrel to cool, and I may achieve significantly different results. Therefore, how would you compare a rifle that could manage no less than 1 moa when 5 shots are fired in 2 minutes (let's say 3 shots touching 2 "fliers") versus the same rifle firing .5 moa 5 shot groups with time to cool in between? Thus, simply saying a 5 shot group is more telling may not be the whole truth. (especially on the internet)
jbech123 I don't really know what your reasoning for preferring the GAP custom is, but I think you would have a hard time getting a GAP with similar features for less than 3k. If the warlord is truly below 3k then it is probably more than a fair price for what you are getting. That is assuming the action and the integral 20 moa scope base is something that is comparable to the tuned rem 700 action that would be included in a GAP custom in that price range (the GAP would actually be higher by the time all the goodies were added, by several hundred dollars).
Also, I would bet against 2" groups at 500 yards. I believe it could happen, but probably not consistently. The primary purpose of my previous post was to respond to SteveCase who said he did not believe the Warlord would live up to it's accuracy claims. Therefore, I used DIM and myself as examples of Icons living up to their guarantee. So basically I guess I have to ask if you are also you calling me a liar? haha, I haven't made crazy claims about the accuracy of my Icon. I will tell you that my groups have ranged in size of .380 (once) to 1.16 moa (once) during load development with average around .63 or so (don't have them all figured out, still in the process of load development). Sure those are three shot groups, so I guess you can call that into question. However, that certainly meets or exceeds their certification. I guess it is true that is not .5 moa, but it is also not certified to that level of accuracy while the Warlord IS. Anyway, if the warlord did not meet your expectations I have heard good things about TC's customer service...
For reference, I shoot from a bench on front sand bag and a rear bag during load development. I shoot my groups in strings with each shot approximately 20-30 seconds apart. The barrel is usually quite warm to the touch.
Olympus, I also love the look of those fancy walnut stocks! I personally would not buy a warlord because if I were to spend that much on a rifle it would more than likely be as an heirloom piece rather than a daily use type (aka it better be a looker!). However, if I were to be in the market for a higher end tactical turn-bolt I think the warlord deserves a good look if it truly is at the less than $3k price mark with all of its features.
MinnMooney
Member
Too much moola. The Savage BAT/S-K under 2 grand - list..
I just finished the article in Guns & Ammo (Nov. 2009) about the Warlord and had very similar thoughts as several of you. Ho-hum..... another tactical .308 for too much moola. The author did the typical anyone who advertises with us will get a great review type of story. Craig Boddington left out the price and his usual average group from 5 5-shot groups. He did say that he, "had no trouble producing five-shot groups down to .40 inches." I was left very curious as to what all of his groups averaged.
There are a lot of rifles out there (just as accurate) with all or most of these same features for much less money. Savage just came out with 2 Model 10 tacticals - the BAS-K and BAT/S-K. Their lists are $1852 & $1991 respectively. Street will probably be $1500 - $1600. You could add a really nice tactical scope for the difference.
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but none of my shotguns (birdshot loads) seem to be able to accomplish that. except for that time that I shot a tree from 2 feet away - a killer, attack tree no less - and made one rather ragged hole.
I don't count 3 shot groups. When I'm working up a load for a particular rifle I'll shoot 3 with 25.0 gr, 3 with 25.5 gr, 3 with 26 gr up to the max load while looking for really bad groups. If I find a pattern of tighter groups with light middle or toward-max loads then I'll load up enough for 5 to 10 shot groups for verification.
Just yesterday I was shooting at 415 yards with my sporter weight Remington 700 in .270Win. and the 1st 3 shots were just a hair under an inch (.97" for a moa of 0.223!). I quit that group because I knew that two more shots would have opened the group to it's normal 1.75 moa. I showed it to & bragged - jokingly - about it to my son..... who asked, "Where did your other two shots go?" Oh well.
I just finished the article in Guns & Ammo (Nov. 2009) about the Warlord and had very similar thoughts as several of you. Ho-hum..... another tactical .308 for too much moola. The author did the typical anyone who advertises with us will get a great review type of story. Craig Boddington left out the price and his usual average group from 5 5-shot groups. He did say that he, "had no trouble producing five-shot groups down to .40 inches." I was left very curious as to what all of his groups averaged.
There are a lot of rifles out there (just as accurate) with all or most of these same features for much less money. Savage just came out with 2 Model 10 tacticals - the BAS-K and BAT/S-K. Their lists are $1852 & $1991 respectively. Street will probably be $1500 - $1600. You could add a really nice tactical scope for the difference.
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I couldn't agree more! Three shot groups are way too easy to have compensating errors. Now one shot groups.... With most of my rifles I've been able to manage one hole groups
but none of my shotguns (birdshot loads) seem to be able to accomplish that. except for that time that I shot a tree from 2 feet away - a killer, attack tree no less - and made one rather ragged hole.I don't count 3 shot groups. When I'm working up a load for a particular rifle I'll shoot 3 with 25.0 gr, 3 with 25.5 gr, 3 with 26 gr up to the max load while looking for really bad groups. If I find a pattern of tighter groups with light middle or toward-max loads then I'll load up enough for 5 to 10 shot groups for verification.
Just yesterday I was shooting at 415 yards with my sporter weight Remington 700 in .270Win. and the 1st 3 shots were just a hair under an inch (.97" for a moa of 0.223!). I quit that group because I knew that two more shots would have opened the group to it's normal 1.75 moa. I showed it to & bragged - jokingly - about it to my son..... who asked, "Where did your other two shots go?" Oh well.
you can get a very nice gap for less than 3k. one that would also be guaranteed to shoot great groups under very adverse conditions. 1/2 in acctually for around 2600. 3600 will get you 3/8ths guaranteed from George. Jared from American precision will also make you a bang up rifle for that kind of price. Get what you like, they are all good rifles. you are paying the high price's because for those guarantee's, they might have to scrap a few guns to get the ones that will truely shoot those great groups.
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