Teachers CCW in school
- Thread starter Eric F
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Big45
member
Chalk up another one then to your shock factor.
I am a teacher and I legally ccw at work everyday.
Aparently some of you missed this so let me repost.
no I have no idea about this person other than listening to her talk loudly in a crowded office. nothing else. As far as the other teachers it is her puting them at risk not me.
I fail to understand as to why I am attacked here when I have clearly stated my intentions to speak with this woman in private and ask her to be careful of her conversations in public. After all this thread would not exist if she had kept her mouth shut. I type it here to get some thoughts and instead get blasted. There is high road for you. If any one needs to get blasted it ought to be her for disclosing the situation in public forum.
I dont have any kids in school
No because it is not a felony crime in VA the most they can do is ask you to leave.
My motivation on this is that she is wrong to break the law. I was torn between breaking the law and rtkba.(problem solved at this point)
no I have no idea about this person other than listening to her talk loudly in a crowded office. nothing else. As far as the other teachers it is her puting them at risk not me.
I fail to understand as to why I am attacked here when I have clearly stated my intentions to speak with this woman in private and ask her to be careful of her conversations in public. After all this thread would not exist if she had kept her mouth shut. I type it here to get some thoughts and instead get blasted. There is high road for you. If any one needs to get blasted it ought to be her for disclosing the situation in public forum.
Ridgerunner665
Member
I'm not attacking...I'm just saying that it should be left alone...she means no harm...she may even save a life.
Good call on the private discussion decision,
as for getting blasted by forum member's, you need to remember this is a very emotionaly charged issue, most people on here believe in the right to defend, and dont like law's that disarm, and make citizen's easy target's.
also in your opening post it looked like you were ready to turn them all in,
Eric F, I am ashamed of you
No, we do not. We have a moral obligation to act morally. We have a legal obligation to act legally.
By this I mean, every person working on the Underground Railroad to help escaping slaves was acting both morally AND illegally.
The list of immoral laws that governments have demanded is as long as my arm. Slavery, Genocide, legalized theft from supposedly inferior groups, the list goes on.
Would you have turned in Anne Frank and her family? Note, I am not asking if you would have taken the personal risk to hide them, I am saying, would you have turned them in?
Do you fear that the teacher is going to harm anyone? If the answer is no, then you are CHOOSING to put her and other teachers at risk for no reason whatsoever.
No, we do not. We have a moral obligation to act morally. We have a legal obligation to act legally.
By this I mean, every person working on the Underground Railroad to help escaping slaves was acting both morally AND illegally.
The list of immoral laws that governments have demanded is as long as my arm. Slavery, Genocide, legalized theft from supposedly inferior groups, the list goes on.
Would you have turned in Anne Frank and her family? Note, I am not asking if you would have taken the personal risk to hide them, I am saying, would you have turned them in?
That sounds like one of the cheesy lines the villan says, as he holds a gun to a hostage's head and demands the code for the bank vault. "I am going to count to 10, and then shoot this one, and then count to 10 again and shoot another one, until they are all dead or until you give me the code! Remember, I won't be killing them, YOU ARE!, after all, you could save them by simply telling me the code. Do you really want to live with all these deaths on your consious?"
Do you fear that the teacher is going to harm anyone? If the answer is no, then you are CHOOSING to put her and other teachers at risk for no reason whatsoever.
mainmech48
Member
Eric, she didn't "announce it in a public forum"; she said it in a private conversation which took place in the reception area of public agency and which you overheard.
Not very discrete of her, but a far cry from 'announcing' it.
What puzzles me is why you seem to think that your 'outing' her (and by inevitable concatenation five others) would result in any more positive consequences for the 'pro-gun movement than 'being caught'.
I'd also question your analogy. What she's doing is described in law as a "malum prohibitum", a felony because it's been proscribed as such in a statute. Very different, IMO, from the case of "malum in se" (bank robbery) you compare it with which is a felony because the act is, in itself, considered to be wrongfull.
While speculating as to what you would rather do if you were in her situation may give you a neat little rationale for ruining her career, I'd submit that it's just that: rationalization.
You have no way of knowing what the factors in her personal predicament might be. Hypothesizing based on the assumption that the two of you must share the same range of viable options under any particular set of circumstances is pure sophistry, IMO.
I'd suggest that you rethink your rationale to reflect what "is" rather than what you think they "should be". I'd also suggest that you take a hard look as to what the actual sources of your motivation might be.
Not very discrete of her, but a far cry from 'announcing' it.
What puzzles me is why you seem to think that your 'outing' her (and by inevitable concatenation five others) would result in any more positive consequences for the 'pro-gun movement than 'being caught'.
I'd also question your analogy. What she's doing is described in law as a "malum prohibitum", a felony because it's been proscribed as such in a statute. Very different, IMO, from the case of "malum in se" (bank robbery) you compare it with which is a felony because the act is, in itself, considered to be wrongfull.
While speculating as to what you would rather do if you were in her situation may give you a neat little rationale for ruining her career, I'd submit that it's just that: rationalization.
You have no way of knowing what the factors in her personal predicament might be. Hypothesizing based on the assumption that the two of you must share the same range of viable options under any particular set of circumstances is pure sophistry, IMO.
I'd suggest that you rethink your rationale to reflect what "is" rather than what you think they "should be". I'd also suggest that you take a hard look as to what the actual sources of your motivation might be.
Apple a Day
Member
Legally, she isn't obligated to 'save the kids lives' in Virginia. She has to do two things by law A)tell them to stop B)inform an administrator. That's it. Teachers aren't cops. Don't expect us to jump in the path of a bullet/knife/etc... because it ain't in our job description and we aren't trained for it. Teacher= someone who teaches DOES NOT = security guard or cop.
You are upset because a law-abiding teacher carries a gun to protect herself but won't dive into the middle of a knife fight? Get a-freaking-hold of yourself! Once again: teacher DOES NOT = cop. Obviously the hoodlums in that school are already carrying weapons but you're getting upset because a teacher decides to do the same to protect herself! :banghead:
I happen to be a teacher in your area. I have a CCW. For the record, I do not carry at work as per the law. There are some times I wish I could, though. I'm not jumping into a knife fight, either. I'm there to teach your kids. If you expect me to wipe your kid's butt or jump in front of a bullet for him you're going to be really disappointed. At the end of the day I'm going home to my family. They're a lot more important to me than your kid.
D
Deleted member 66305
Guest
Eric, I think your current course of action is the right one. Simply tell her you read her posts on a public forum, and were able to deduce who she is, and that she ought to cease posting about it on a public forum. Ask her if she is aware she's committing a felony. Ask her if she is aware that she could be convicted of a felony if she stopped a school shooting rampage. Ask her if she is aware she's more likely to get caught with the gun than to use it defensively. Assure her you will speak to nobody else about it, and leave it at that.
Ridgerunner665
Member
Arrogant Bastard...you misunderstood...
He over heard her...he didn't read it on a forum.
He over heard her...he didn't read it on a forum.
Why would you be shocked? Who wants to be helpless?
I would say we have no obligation to follow unjust laws. Doesn't everyone deserve free speech, freedom of religion, and self defense no matter what the laws say? Robbing a bank would be a very different matter. There is a victim, someone is being deprived of something that is theirs. The only victim here is the woman who is legally required to be a helpless victim.
Let it go, she's a big girl, she can take care of herself. You're more likely to stir up trouble trying to wander into the school and find her.
brighamr
Member
I'm glad to hear that at least 5 teachers are making there schools safe.
Laws by nature are to assist society, not hinder. If/when a teacher puts down a suicidal maniac before he/she continues their rampage, I see nothing but good media and a good cause for the laws to be changed.
Back when black people were banned from drinking out of the "white people only" faucets, several of them drank in spite of the consequences. those laws have since been changed.
Laws by nature are to assist society, not hinder. If/when a teacher puts down a suicidal maniac before he/she continues their rampage, I see nothing but good media and a good cause for the laws to be changed.
Back when black people were banned from drinking out of the "white people only" faucets, several of them drank in spite of the consequences. those laws have since been changed.
okay, so you dont, but i have three in school, and i would prefer knowing armed teacher's were presnt", rather than haveing feel good, head in the sand type's teaching my kid's, obliviuosly going about their live's letting the goverment protect them,
or do you feel it's okay if children are murdered, as long as it's not your's!
D
Deleted member 66305
Guest
Ridgerunner665 said:
Ah, you are correct. I did read it the first time; however, once I got to the end of the thread, I guess I convoluted some of the details with previous discussions I've had.
Following the law is not always the moral thing to do. It was against the law for Germans to keep Jews hidden in their houses, yet giving them to the enemy when the soldiers came knocking at the door would not be the right decision.
How is carrying a concealed weapon the same as robbing a bank? You need to re-evaluate your thoughts on this issue because one is for preservation of life, the other is for personal gain at the expense of others.
Laws are supposed to reflect morality, it does not define it. Bad laws go against morality, which exists apart from the law. Self defense is a good. If a law is passed that restricts this, the law is bad.
How is carrying a concealed weapon the same as robbing a bank? You need to re-evaluate your thoughts on this issue because one is for preservation of life, the other is for personal gain at the expense of others.
Laws are supposed to reflect morality, it does not define it. Bad laws go against morality, which exists apart from the law. Self defense is a good. If a law is passed that restricts this, the law is bad.
Society has changed since I was a kid. I had a mother to help raise me and guide my path and a father who led by example. Today due to the socialist at work we have a new society that both parents work and our kids are raised by the schools.
No one should be suprised by the violence in our schools. Teachers have no bond with the student other than it's their job to teach them what someone else tells them to.
This covers it all, you have people raising your family that could care less what happens to them. It is our system now and untill the system changes we will always have violence in our schools and teachers who are indifferent to our kids.
I believe though that as long as the system is set up that teachers can't carry guns in class then it is the law which should be followed. They created the system so let them reap the fruits of their labor. The socialist said no guns in schools and guess what that has led to?
Home school.
jj
No one should be suprised by the violence in our schools. Teachers have no bond with the student other than it's their job to teach them what someone else tells them to.
This covers it all, you have people raising your family that could care less what happens to them. It is our system now and untill the system changes we will always have violence in our schools and teachers who are indifferent to our kids.
I believe though that as long as the system is set up that teachers can't carry guns in class then it is the law which should be followed. They created the system so let them reap the fruits of their labor. The socialist said no guns in schools and guess what that has led to?
Home school.
jj
Hi Eric F.,
I applaud you for asking us for thoughts and comments on this matter. As a law-abiding citizen, you encountered a situation that caused you to wonder what you should do, if anything, concerning hearing of someone else breaking a law.
I don't carry at work in a large corporation. Why? Because they have a policy that we cannot. HOWEVER, if I'm pulling an "all-nighter" to get a big project done at home office . . . and no one is on the property . . . well, I'd better not say . . .
MY TAKE ON THIS SITUATION . . .
Across America today:
1. Our nation's elected officials (legislatures) enact imperfect laws on the books, as a matter of compromise, that they know cannot, and/or will not be enforced.
One situation comes glaringly to mind . . . the illegal alien invasion on America, and the "sanctuary cities" situation.
AND . . .
2. Also, our nation's elected officials (President, governors, DA's, etc.) choose which laws to enforce and which ones to ignore enforcing.
AS LAW ABIDING CITIZENS . . . we must . . .
obey the laws that are enacted! However, when a law is wrong and it goes against our beliefs, we have three choices . . . and PLEASE don't choose the THIRD choice below:
OUR THREE CHOICES when the law is wrong and goes against our convictions,
1. Some choose to do what is right and be willing to pay the consequences, in an effort to make America a better place to live.
Hundreds of thousands of Americans has done this through the years, starting with the Battle of Bunker Hill. Some died, some lost everything but we became a better country because they had the balls to stand up for their beliefs.
2. Others with conviction choose, due to lack of health or fear of personal loss, choose to stay on the sidelines but they STILL supported their brothers and sisters who WERE standing in the gap.
These type of people are most common, but they are also extremely valuable in the development of a better nation.
3. Others choose to turn in citizens truly trying to make this a better, safer nation
All nations will always have some imperfect laws . . . written by imperfect OR corrupted men . . . and capriciously enforced by other men with hidden agendas and personal interests/kickbacks. Unfortunately, there are always a few "weenies" who'll turn in good folks trying to make this a better society.
Thus, I kindly suggest you choose option 2 in this situation with the school teacher.
Let that lady continue to tote illegally. Maybe one day she'll be the person who saves lives and helps turn the tide in getting our laws improved. Odds are though that she'll just get crucified if something goes bad, but at least maybe she'll get a jury of her "peers."
THANKS FOR WRITING! Your situation is one that we may all find ourselves in one day.
T.
I applaud you for asking us for thoughts and comments on this matter. As a law-abiding citizen, you encountered a situation that caused you to wonder what you should do, if anything, concerning hearing of someone else breaking a law.
I don't carry at work in a large corporation. Why? Because they have a policy that we cannot. HOWEVER, if I'm pulling an "all-nighter" to get a big project done at home office . . . and no one is on the property . . . well, I'd better not say . . .
MY TAKE ON THIS SITUATION . . .
Across America today:
1. Our nation's elected officials (legislatures) enact imperfect laws on the books, as a matter of compromise, that they know cannot, and/or will not be enforced.
One situation comes glaringly to mind . . . the illegal alien invasion on America, and the "sanctuary cities" situation.
AND . . .
2. Also, our nation's elected officials (President, governors, DA's, etc.) choose which laws to enforce and which ones to ignore enforcing.
AS LAW ABIDING CITIZENS . . . we must . . .
obey the laws that are enacted! However, when a law is wrong and it goes against our beliefs, we have three choices . . . and PLEASE don't choose the THIRD choice below:
OUR THREE CHOICES when the law is wrong and goes against our convictions,
1. Some choose to do what is right and be willing to pay the consequences, in an effort to make America a better place to live.
Hundreds of thousands of Americans has done this through the years, starting with the Battle of Bunker Hill. Some died, some lost everything but we became a better country because they had the balls to stand up for their beliefs.
2. Others with conviction choose, due to lack of health or fear of personal loss, choose to stay on the sidelines but they STILL supported their brothers and sisters who WERE standing in the gap.
These type of people are most common, but they are also extremely valuable in the development of a better nation.
3. Others choose to turn in citizens truly trying to make this a better, safer nation
All nations will always have some imperfect laws . . . written by imperfect OR corrupted men . . . and capriciously enforced by other men with hidden agendas and personal interests/kickbacks. Unfortunately, there are always a few "weenies" who'll turn in good folks trying to make this a better society.
Thus, I kindly suggest you choose option 2 in this situation with the school teacher.
Let that lady continue to tote illegally. Maybe one day she'll be the person who saves lives and helps turn the tide in getting our laws improved. Odds are though that she'll just get crucified if something goes bad, but at least maybe she'll get a jury of her "peers."
THANKS FOR WRITING! Your situation is one that we may all find ourselves in one day.
T.
Keep in mind, since you have decided to jump on your white horse and insert yourself into a situation that really isn't any of your business, once you speak to her, you will now be committing conspiracy to commit a felony by not reporting it. All she has to do is mention you talked to her.
I know you think you're doing what you think is right, but technically it's illegal and I guess now, everyone on this forum has a "moral" obligation to report you to the authorities.
Leave it alone.
I know you think you're doing what you think is right, but technically it's illegal and I guess now, everyone on this forum has a "moral" obligation to report you to the authorities.
Leave it alone.
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PavePusher
Member
Quote:
Are you seriously considering turning her in?
I dont know what I am going to do yet. And to me it is the same as robbing a bank. They are both crimes. moral or other wise. Do we not have a moral obligation to follow the law?
Using that logic, we'd still have segregation laws on the books, if not out-right slavery. There is NO moral obligation to follow a foolish or destructive law. Of course, sometimes this means you actually have to THINK about your actions. I would go so far as to say that there IS a moral obligation to fight BAD laws. See Ghandi, King, etc.
Again I understand the desire to carry and provide self defense but a gun is not the only means to do such.
No, but it's one of the most efficient, easiest to learn and use, and can be used by the oft qouted "105 lb. woman against the 250 lb. attacker". And a (hand)gun is a lot easier to conceal from the bliss-ninnys than swords, clubs or archery gear.
I also know that law enforcement is not 100% reliable. I understand this persons feelings on the situation I would want to carry too its just a case of legality for me at this point.
Quote:
all too often whats "right" and whats "legal" are 2 completely different things.
I have never heard of anyone being convicted of a felony for doing anything legal. But I do agree in the diffrence between the two.
Quote:
I respectfully suggest you mind your own business
thats fine and dandy but by the same token folks should not air their business and get offended when every one knows about things.
__________________
Are you seriously considering turning her in?
I dont know what I am going to do yet. And to me it is the same as robbing a bank. They are both crimes. moral or other wise. Do we not have a moral obligation to follow the law?
Using that logic, we'd still have segregation laws on the books, if not out-right slavery. There is NO moral obligation to follow a foolish or destructive law. Of course, sometimes this means you actually have to THINK about your actions. I would go so far as to say that there IS a moral obligation to fight BAD laws. See Ghandi, King, etc.
Again I understand the desire to carry and provide self defense but a gun is not the only means to do such.
No, but it's one of the most efficient, easiest to learn and use, and can be used by the oft qouted "105 lb. woman against the 250 lb. attacker". And a (hand)gun is a lot easier to conceal from the bliss-ninnys than swords, clubs or archery gear.
I also know that law enforcement is not 100% reliable. I understand this persons feelings on the situation I would want to carry too its just a case of legality for me at this point.
Quote:
all too often whats "right" and whats "legal" are 2 completely different things.
I have never heard of anyone being convicted of a felony for doing anything legal. But I do agree in the diffrence between the two.
Quote:
I respectfully suggest you mind your own business
thats fine and dandy but by the same token folks should not air their business and get offended when every one knows about things.
__________________
Ok now I have sat upon it and again I have decided that I will do this
or nothing at all. So settle down!.............please
Just because you think about something and dont do it does not mean it is bad. Every one has thought "I would like to punch that guy right in the mouth" and didnt. Like I said I only thought about it. Then thought I would post this to get a few opinions. I have them and have considered them and my options. Thanks to those that had constructive input.
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