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Ted Kennedy's 30-30 comments

Discussion in 'Legal' started by Dan from MI, Feb 27, 2004.

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  1. Dan from MI

    Dan from MI Member

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    AMENDMENT NO. 2619

    Mr. KENNEDY. Mr. President, I understand we have a half an hour; is that correct?

    The PRESIDING OFFICER. The Senator is correct.

    Mr. KENNEDY. I yield myself 15 minutes.

    The PRESIDING OFFICER. Does the Senator wish to send the amendment to the desk?

    Mr. KENNEDY. I believe the amendment is at the desk.

    The PRESIDING OFFICER. The clerk will report.

    The assistant legislative clerk read as follows:


    The Senator from Massachusetts [Mr. KENNEDY] proposes an amendment numbered 2619.


    Mr. KENNEDY. Mr. President, I ask unanimous consent that reading of the amendment be dispensed with.

    The PRESIDING OFFICER. Without objection, it is so ordered.

    The amendment is as follows:

    (Purpose: To expand the definition of armor piercing ammunition and to require the Attorney General to promulgate standards for the uniform testing of projectiles against body armor)
    On page 11, after line 19, add the following:

    SEC. 5. ARMOR PIERCING AMMUNITION.

    (a) EXPANSION OF DEFINITION OF ARMOR PIERCING AMMUNITION.--Section 921(a)(17)(B) of title 18, United States Code, is amended--

    (1) in clause (i), by striking ``or'' at the end;

    (2) in clause (ii), by striking the period at the end and inserting a semicolon; and

    (3) by adding at the end the following:

    ``(iii) a projectile that may be used in a handgun and that the Attorney General determines, pursuant to section 926(d), to be capable of penetrating body armor; or

    ``(iv) a projectile for a centerfire rifle, designed or marketed as having armor piercing capability, that the Attorney General determines, pursuant to section 926(d), to be more likely to penetrate body armor than standard ammunition of the same caliber.''.

    (b) DETERMINATION OF THE CAPABILITY OF PROJECTILES TO PENETRATE BODY ARMOR.--Section 926 of title 18, United States Code, is amended by adding at the end the following:

    ``(d)(1) Not later than 1 year after the date of enactment of this subsection, the Attorney General shall promulgate standards for the uniform testing of projectiles against Body Armor Exemplar.

    ``(2) The standards promulgated pursuant to paragraph (1) shall take into account, among other factors, variations in performance that are related to the length of the barrel of the handgun or centerfire rifle from which the projectile is fired and the amount and kind of powder used to propel the projectile.

    ``(3) As used in paragraph (1), the term `Body Armor Exemplar' means body armor that the Attorney General determines meets minimum standards for the protection of law enforcement officers.''.


    Mr. KENNEDY. Mr. President, I mentioned that there had been a homicide in Massachusetts recently, over 18 months. It was juvenile homicide. I ask that the Record be so corrected.

    As we all know too well, the debate about gun violence has often been aggressive and polarizing with anti-gun violence advocates on one side of the debate, pro-gun advocates on the other. There are deep divisions in the country on the issue of gun safety, and the current debate on the gun immunity bill has thus far only served to highlight those divisions.

    I believe, however, that there are still some principles on which we can all agree. One principle is that we should do everything we can to protect the lives and safety of police officers who are working to protect our streets, schools, and communities.

    The amendment I am offering today is intended to close the existing loopholes in the Federal law that bans cop-killer bullets. Police officers depend on body armor for their lives. Body armor has saved thousands of police officers from death or serious injury by firearm assault. Most police officers who serve large jurisdictions wear armor at all times when on duty. Nevertheless, even with body armor, too many police officers remain vulnerable to gun violence.

    According to the Federal Bureau of Investigation, every year between 50 and 80 police officers are feloniously killed in the line of duty. In 2002, firearms were used in 51 of the 56 murders of police officers. In those shootings, 34 of the officers were wearing body armor at the time of their deaths. From 1992 to 2002, at least 20 police officers were killed after bullets penetrated their armor vests and entered their upper torso.

    Some gun organizations have argued that cop-killer bullets are a myth. The families of these slain police officers know better. In fact, we know that armor-piercing ammunition is not a myth because it is openly and notoriously marketed and sold by gun dealers.

    I direct my colleagues' attention to the Web site of Hi-Vel, Incorporated, a self-described exotic products distributor and manufacturer in Delta, UT. You can access its online catalog on the Internet right now. Hi-Vel's catalog lists an entry for armor-piercing ammunition. On that page you will find a listing for armor-piercing bullets that can penetrate metal objects. The bullets are available in packages of 10 for $9.95 each. Hi-Vel carries armor-piercing bullets for both the .223 caliber rifles such as the Bushmaster sniper rifle used in the Washington area attacks in October 2002, and the 7.62 caliber assault weapons. Over the past 10 years, these two caliber weapons were responsible for the deaths of 14 of the 20 law enforcement officers killed by ammunition that penetrated body armor.

    In a recent report, the ATF identified three, .223 and the 7.62 caliber rifles, as the ones most frequently encountered by police officers. These high-capacity rifles, the ATF wrote, pose an enhanced threat to law enforcement, in part because of their ability to expel particles at velocities that are capable of penetrating the type of soft body armor typically worn by law enforcement officers.

    Another rifle caliber, the 30.30 caliber, was responsible for penetrating three officers' armor and killing them in 1993, 1996, and 2002. This ammunition is also capable of puncturing light-armored vehicles, ballistic or armored glass, armored limousines, even a 600-pound safe with 600 pounds of safe armor plating.

    It is outrageous and unconscionable that such ammunition continues to be sold in the United States of America. Armor-piercing ammunition for rifles and assault weapons is virtually unregulated in the United States. A Federal license is not required to sell such ammunition unless firearms are sold as well. Anyone over the age of 18 may purchase this ammunition without a background check. There is no Federal minimum age of possession. Purchases may be made over the counter, by mail order, by fax, by Internet, and there is

    [Page: S1635] GPO's PDF
    no Federal requirement that dealers retain sales records.
    In 1999, investigators for the General Accounting Office went undercover to assess the availability of .50 caliber armor-piercing ammunition. Purchasing cop-killer bullets, it turned out, is only slightly more difficult than buying a lottery ticket or a gallon of milk. Dealers in Delaware, Pennsylvania, and West Virginia informed the investigators that the purchase of these kinds of ammunition is subject to no Federal, State, or local restrictions. Dealers in Alaska, Nebraska, and Oregon who advertised over the Internet told an undercover agent that he could buy the ammunition in a matter of minutes, even after he said he wanted the bullets shipped to Washington, DC, and needed them to pierce an armored limousine or theoretically take down a helicopter. Talk about homeland security.

    In a single year, over 100,000 rounds of military surplus armor-piercing ammunition were sold to civilians in the United States. In addition, the gun manufacturer, Smith & Wesson, recently introduced a powerful new revolver, the .500 magnum, 4 1/2 pounds, 15 inches long, that clearly has the capability of piercing body armor using ammunition allowed under the current law.

    The publication, Gun Week, reviewed the new weapon with enthusiasm: ``Behold the magic, feel the power,'' it wrote.


    Many of our leaders will buy the Smith & Wesson .500 Magnum for the same reason that Edmund Hillary climbed Mt. Everest: Because it is there.


    Current Federal law bans certain armor-piercing ammunition for handguns. It establishes a content-based standard. It covers ammunition that is, first of all, constructed from tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium, copper, or depleted uranium or, secondly, larger than .22 caliber with a jacket that weighs no more than 25 percent of the total weight of the bullet.

    However, there are no restrictions on ammunition that may be manufactured from other materials but can still penetrate body armor. Even more important, there are no restrictions on armor-piercing ammunition used in rifles and assault weapons. Armor-piercing ammunition has no purpose other than penetrating bulletproof vests. It is of no use for hunting or self-defense. Such armor-piercing ammunition has no place in our society--none.

    Armor-piercing bullets that sidestep the Federal ban, such as that advertised on Hi-Vel's Web site, put the lives of American citizens and those sworn to defend American citizens in jeopardy every single day. We know the terrorists are now exploiting the weaknesses and loopholes in our gun laws. The terrorists training manual discovered by American soldiers in Afghanistan in 2001 advised al-Qaida operatives to buy assault weapons in the United States and use them against us.

    Terrorists are bent on exploiting weaknesses in our gun laws. Just think of what a terrorist could do with a sniper rifle and only a moderate supply of armor-piercing ammunition.

    My amendment amends the Federal ban on cop-killer bullets to include a performance standard and extends the ban on centerfire rifles, which include the sniper rifles and assault weapons responsible for the deaths of 17 police officers whose body armor was penetrated by this ammunition.

    My amendment will not apply to ammunition that is now routinely used in hunting rifles or other centerfire rifles. To the contrary, it only covers ammunition that is designed or marketed as having armor-piercing capability. That is it--designed or marketed as having armor-piercing capability, such as armor-piercing ammunition that is now advertised on the Hi-Vel Web site.

    Bullets that are designed or marketed to be armor piercing have no place in our society. Ducks, deer, and other wildlife do not wear body armor. Police officers do. We should not let another day pass without plugging the loopholes in the Federal law that bans cop-killer bullets.

    This is an issue on which mainstream gun owners and gun safety advocates can agree. I urge my colleagues to vote in support of this amendment.

    I reserve the remainder of my time.
     
  2. Dan from MI

    Dan from MI Member

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  3. HBK

    HBK member

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    If we used kennedy as an example, Buicks would be illegal. How does someone who at the very least has committed manslaughter while driving under the influence get to be a US senator? The majority of thepeople in MA must either be blatantly stupid or just have no ethics, morals or pride.
     
  4. benEzra

    benEzra Moderator Emeritus

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    He's a lot more ignorant about firearms, physics, and vests than I thought he was, or . . .

    ANY bullet from a typical hunting rifle such as a .270, .308, or .30-30 will penetrate a level II or IIIA vest DESIGNED TO STOP HANDGUN ROUNDS ONLY. NO bullet (including .30-06 AP) will penetrate a level IV vest DESIGNED TO STOP HIGH-POWERED RIFLE ROUNDS.

    So rounds should be illegal if it can penetrate armor that was SPECIFICALLY DESIGNED (for weight reasons) NOT to withstand it?? :banghead:

    The inanity of this is . . . well, I can't think of any good words for it. Sheesh, a SOFTPOINT hunting round out of a .30-06 will penetrate 1/2" or more of mild steel, never mind a lightweight vest.

    If he wanted a performance-based standard, at least he could have suggested targeting those rounds that could penetrate a vest CERTIFIED TO WITHSTAND NORMAL ROUNDS OF THAT MASS AND VELOCITY . . .
     
  5. Z_Infidel

    Z_Infidel Member

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    It is appalling and alarming that Mr. Kennedy is so ignorant of the subject he is speaking about. I suppose it is difficult to argue with people who simply don't want to understand the truth. Legislation is being made by people who simply don't know what they're talking about, and what's worse is that they don't care.
     
  6. TallPine

    TallPine Member

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    I don't think that he is the slightest bit ignorant about this subject. He knows exactly what he is talking about and what he intends to do - outlaw a certain "class" of rifle ammunition, which will - oh, surpriise! - effectively ban all centerfire rifle ammunition.

    Buy now - you're going to need to use it later.

    (Mod note: content edited by Beren pending review.)
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 28, 2004
  7. cordex

    cordex Member

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    I hope Ted Kennedy does everything he can to ban .30-30.
     
  8. Mark Tyson

    Mark Tyson Member

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    Yeah, maybe that will light a fire under the ___es of the hunters!
     
  9. Wildalaska

    Wildalaska member

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    Tall Pine thats disgusting


    WildwherearethemodsAlaska
     
  10. TallPine

    TallPine Member

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    Yeah, Ted Kennedy is pretty disgusting, all right

    He should have served a long sentence for manslaughter, but here he is trying to sneak in another gun ban (no ammo == no guns).

    But his brother John made some pretty strong affirmations of our right to keep and bear arms. I was devastated when he was killed, though I have since learned that he was not all the saint that I believed him to be way back then.

    Okay, I'll put it this way - too bad the girl didn't get out of the car instead.
     
  11. Third_Rail

    Third_Rail Member

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    That's going too far, don't put a black mark on the forums.
     
  12. rick_reno

    rick_reno member

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    Ted "The Whale" Kennedy was driving an Oldmosbile the evening he left Mary Jo Kopechne to drown in his car.
     
  13. Intune

    Intune Member

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    C'mon guys. Even without mods one should not give anti's ammo. Such is the case here. "Clean up, aisle 4!"
     
  14. HBK

    HBK member

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    You're right, Rick, it was an Olds. What the hell was I thinking, slandering the good name of Buick! Sorry about that y'all. :eek:
     
  15. hillbilly

    hillbilly Member

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    Get a clue, THR people!!!!

    Ted Where's-the-bridge-at Kennedy is NOT ignorant about guns.

    He knows exactly what he is doing.

    Kennedy wants to ban all guns of all types. If he can get 30-30 hunting ammo banned, he can get everything banned.

    Let me say this again. TED KENNEDY IS NOT IGNORANT ABOUT GUNS!!!!!

    He wants all of them banned and is willing to twist, obfuscate, mangle, and outright lie in order to achieve his goal of a total and complete ban.

    He won't change his mind, not matter how much you try to educate him.

    Educating Chappaquidick Ted on guns would be like trying to educate Adolf Hitler about Jewish cultural traditions.

    hillbilly
     
  16. spartacus2002

    spartacus2002 Member

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    so, 3 police officers killed in 10 years with 30-30 rounds.

    How many 30-30 rifles are there? how much 30-30 ammo is sold yearly? And so far, 3 officers have been killed?



    Again, just to put this victim's thing into perspective, here is the score so far: Ted Kennedy's Olds: 1.
    My guns: 0.
     
  17. Mark Tyson

    Mark Tyson Member

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    LOL

    Hey I think I saw a bumper sticker like that once!
     
  18. Standing Wolf

    Standing Wolf Member in memoriam

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    So refreshing to hear the Hero of Chappiquiddick whine and snivel on a topic he's completely ignorant of!
     
  19. jfh

    jfh Member

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    IT IS IMPORTANT TO STRESS HILLBILLY'S

    comments in his post above.

    We all like to post our amazement at the ignorance of the anti-gunners. You know, without defaming anyone here who does so--and I do my share on a Public Radio Forum, as much as possible--it has to be pointed out that this ignorance is a ruse.

    if SCUBA Ted doesn't know the practical / pragmatic concerns of centerfire rifle cartriges AP capabilities for body armor, then he has God-knows-how-many hired aids, analysts, and camp-followers (see DU thread on modest FFL proposal) above WHO DO KNOW THE DIFFERENCE and whose sole existence is to prepare the Senator with that knowledge.
     
  20. armoredman

    armoredman Member

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    Politics is NOT about the truth. Politics is about power.
    He knows the truth, same as Diane Feinslime and Upchuckie Schumer - it doesn't matter, as it disrupts thier power aquisition scheme, and must be removed.
     
  21. spartacus2002

    spartacus2002 Member

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    please please please

    go tell all your apathetic hunter buddies that it's finally happened: Ted Kennedy wants to ban their deer rifles!
     
  22. Mark Tyson

    Mark Tyson Member

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    We need to condense this information into an easy referenced fact sheet. Then, those THR members who own gun shops or are in a position to post the material can do so. We should also distribute it at gun shows and other appropriate venues. Post it on the wall or photocopy a bunch of them.

    Better yet, staple it to the reciept of every box of .30-30 or rifle ammo that you sell.
     
  23. Ben Shepherd

    Ben Shepherd Member

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    He has stepped in it with the hunters!!!! You guys should have seen my dads(typical "if it isn't a scoped wood stocked rifle you don't need it" hunter) face when I showed him those comments.

    He instantly got on the phone to all his hunting buddies(not a small group), and most of the loudly voiced comments I overheard are not fit to post on THR. And he gave every one of them the 1-800 number to Washington, with instuctions to calm down before calling.:D
     
  24. jfh

    jfh Member

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    will some massa-too-sh*ts members

    please get this going in the hunting associations there? this is too good an opportunity to pass up

    You will immediately be parried with his disclaimers at the end, but if you combine the knowledge of vest design with SCUBA Ted's disclaimers, his statement will be seen as disingenous at best, and can be constructed to permanently ally him with the Travelling Cripple Show for all time.

    Since there does seem to be a momentum shift in GC attitudes going on, we've have got to get this smear down pat, and create a branding that will hasten this fool's retirement.

    ANYTHING that will keep his identify as being extremist in this area will be a long-term benefit to gunowners. This is the gunny's optimum moment to activate our hunter friends who are just riding along....

    edit one: fact one: TK wants to ban all hunter's rifle cartridges. Period. But we need to get our statements in a row on this one, given his disclaimers.

    Will somebody with the knowledge of vest specs post them up here so we have that in hand? We need to have at hand the details showing all such

    one spin on this is to identify as TK now wants LEOs to wear level IV Vests) ALL THE TIME.


    and for you who might think this is dirty tactics, given his disclaimers: shoot for the shoulder, next time, to wound your assailant, will you?
     
  25. Ben Shepherd

    Ben Shepherd Member

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    The text of his comments better be in next months American Rifleman.

    Because if his drivel becomes law, they would have to rename the magazine to something like Shoulderfired 22 Monthly, as the rest would be history!!!
     
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