Teen Expelled From School For Turning In Found Gun

[Brad Johnson]

Zero Tolerance = Zero Intelligence.

It's a cop-out for people who don't want to be bothered with actually considering each situation on its merits. They want an easy out so they can pass the buck and not have to assume any modicum of reason, action, or responsibility, yet still be able to look at people, smile, and claim they actually "did something about it".

Brad

 

[ArmedBear]

By the school boards logic, I should have been expelled twice. once for turning a big sack of weed that I found. and once for finding a .38 revolver, not a bb gun, a real .38 specail in the prop cabinate of the theatre, leftover from an old production along with a box of blanks.

I saw that the cylinder was empty, picked it up by the trigger guard and broughte it directly to the teacher and put it on his desk. the weed I took to the office and put on the secratarys desk. that was it, they thanked me for turning it in and I went on my way.

If you'd have given the weed to the teacher, I think you know where it would have ended up. At least it would have if it were several of the teachers I currently know.

 

[WayneConrad]

"But he broke the rules."

The rules are wrong. They are the unyielding iron fist of mindless, grinding tyrrany masquerading as safety and security.

"We don't know both sides of the story."

If he pocketed it and showed his friends before turning it in, even then the rules are still wrong.

"He should have gone to fetch an adult, posting a guard over it."

And, in a perfect world where he had all the experience of an adult, he would have. This event is supposed to be how he gets that experience. Instead, he's being punished so cruelly for his good intentions that it's hard to imagine how it could have a positive effect upon his character. More likely, I imagine, that he becomes like the embittered Russian peasant that he's being treated as.

 

[thexrayboy]

I sure hope there is another side to this story, as it is otherwise moronic of the school administration to behave this way.

And I'm sure we will hear it just as soon as the school board and the school district lawyers are through creating it. They are not about to comment until they have made every effort possible to cover their mistakes.

Sounds pretty
straightforward to me. Kid finds gun (albeit a pellet gun) kid removes gun from public place thus preventing it from being taken by others, kid gives gun
to school administration for proper disposal. If the kid turned in the gun the same day he found it the time frame is irrelevant. What's the kid supposed to do? Make the time to go to the office. In most schools students must manage their time carefully while between classes to avoid getting inadvertent tardy slips. Time involved is irelevant. This kid did the right, moral and correct thing.

He has now been shown the reality of life, good conduct gets you screwed,
dupicitous conduct gets you rewarded. A more perfect example of two faced double standard morality would be hard to find.

I hope his family sues every member of the board and every other educator involved in this horrible travesty straight into the poor house.

 

[MNgoldenbear]

Sigh. Once again, a lot of knee-jerk responses.


Let me preface my remarks by stating (for those who haven't read a post where I've noted this) that I've been a high school science teacher in public schools for the past 20 years, in two states and in very different circumstances with different clientele. This may give me a prejudiced view, but not any more so than the opinions I've read in this thread.

Was the kid right? Not exactly. Was the response right? Not exactly.

Glad to see that some are recommending that EVERYONE (those involved and those making comments about the situation) try to use reason.

Officials not making a statement in this case are NOT "hiding" behind a policy. They would be wrong to make public comment about specifics, as it violates the family's privacy rights -- even though the family is talking about the issue in public.

Student should not have carried the pellet gun himself. Yes, time is an issue, but the tardy policy is usually more flexible than the weapons policy, even in the "zero tolerance for everything" times of today. Assuming he brought it straight to officials, at least his intent was good.

Officials are in kind of a bind. Wrong to discipline this student with anything other than the suggested training (if the facts are as represented). Does open the "can of worms" on possession. We can say that each case should be decided individually, but that brings up the cry of unequal treatment (racism/classism/assorted other "-isms") from those who are then punished more severely for what is claimed to be the same situation. We say that people should use common sense and show good judgment... until that judgment conflicts with ours, at which point we resort to saying that those who think differently than we do are "brain-dead", oppressive, evil, etc.

I sense a great deal of animosity toward schools (also usually directed toward legal system in this forum). Problem is not schools, courts, etc., much like the problems with violence are not problems with the weapons (as we often try to point out here). The problem is that all of these systems and entities involve PEOPLE. Life is a grand experiment, and humans are a lousy test subject -- we are non-uniform and unpredictable. These are not good characteristics for your experimental organism.

Here in rural MN, I suspect the situation would have been dealt with differently in some schools. They are having more locations go to "zero tolerance" as we've had some significant violent episodes as of late. Still, the attitude is much more accepting of guns and knives as legitimate tools, rather than the equivalent of WMD. One young lady actually remarked to me in class that the ruling that firearms could not be possessed within "x" feet of a school (1000?) was "dumb". Her reasoning was, "You KNOW that during hunting season, just about every car in the parking lot has guns and ammunition in them. The kids go out hunting before and after school." Can't say that I'd hear that in the places I taught in CA.

Anyway, if people would stop suing every time something didn't go their way, and if people would stop to think about and take responsibilty for their actions (this goes for everyone in this story), we probably wouldn't be having the discussion in this thread.

 

[Old Fuff]

What this brain-dead school did was to say the least was incredibly stupid, and I use both “brain-dead” and “stupid” intentionally. Since the shooting at Columbine in Colorado, school systems have been advised to foster a climate where students will feel secure in coming to staff members to report what they know or might have heard about weapons in the school, potential or planed shootings, etc. After the incident in Colorado it was learned that several students did have knowledge of the shooter’s plans, but they chose not to talk about what they knew except perhaps among themselves. Had they had a more secure relationship with someone on the school’s staff the tragedy might have been prevented. Since then a number of potential shootings have been aborted because a student did report something, and the authorities were able to act in time.

Unfortunately most schools are not smart enough to explain to both students and parents exactly what a student should do if they come across an abandoned or hidden weapon in or about the school. Should they leave it in place and report the find to an adult? Or should they pick it up and turn it over to an adult? Or should they do nothing? If they should go to an adult, what adults are appropriate? Are they likely to be punished if they make an honest mistake?

The message the students at this school are getting is that the best thing to do is nothing. Don’t pick it up, and certainly don’t tell anyone lest you end up in trouble. If it turns out to be a “real” gun (as opposed to a pellet pistol or B-B gun) and someone else picks it up, and as a result a shooting – either deliberate or accidental – happens, well so what. At least the student that saw it first won’t be penalized. Protect you own butt is the order of the day for everyone involved.

By now the lawyers are lined up at the student’s house, begging for a chance to file a suit. School Districts have deep pockets – or at least their liability insurance carriers do. So the School Board holds a meeting and rubber stamps the School’s expulsion order before the student’s parents can make an appeal. This was truly bright, and the fact that the student is African-American, with apparently no past record of being a disciplinary problem is going to put frosting on some attorney’s cake. Pleading confidentially with get this school nowhere. Before the ink is dry on the plaintiff’s motion their attorney will have filed to subpoena all of the records, meeting minutes, and other applicable documents associated with the case. He or she will also be making plans to obtain depositions from any and all of the school’s staff that might have been involved.

Sending the student to an “alternative school” will not be particularly smart either. You might end up with an embittered gang-banger in place of a pretty straight kid. If you look at the mess the school has made for both the student and themselves the term “brain-dead” might be too gentle… :banghead:

 

[johnster999]

At least the kid will not likely grow up with the blind trust for authority so many have today.

 

[illini52]

Take a look at what state this occurred in. Illinois.
Makes much more sense now. Plainfield is a suburb of Chicago. Guns are akin to WMDs there.

 

[Spreadfire Arms]

cropcirclewalker wrote:

More brain dead, zero tolerance, terminally stupid, police state, moronery.

Sequel........Seargant confiscates switchblade from officer and tells him that just because he confiscates some contraband from some person who has no power to confiscate is not justification for not arresting the confiscatee and keeping the contraband for himself.

Then seargant keeps contraband for himself.........till he gets caught with it by the LT.

your logic has little to no sense. an officer does have the right to confiscate illegal items. he ultimately has to cut a report and book it as evidence (as he did) but opted not to charge the guy. but you are wrong. go look up the CA Penal Code Section 653k. that says the possession of a switchblade is illegal, a misdemeanor. the officer performed everything in accordance with the law. he doesn't have to arrest the guy, that is his discretion. he didn't violate anyone's 4th Amendment rights.

sounds to me you are making assumptions without any merit. this logic sounds like it comes from a guy who would blame the cops for arresting someone and not the guy who committed the offense.

and, the correct spelling of "seargeant" is "sergeant."

 

[gm]

I agree with you old fuff,on everything.

How can anyone expect a kid to go talk with an administrator when he/she feels that the only thing that will result from it is more trouble?Meanwhile, some kid finds the weapon and in doing so, plays with it,it fires and there you are,end of story.The outcome then gets the attention of everyone then,But who am I, just another parent thats getting tired of zero tolerance and the zero common sense thats going with it.


The right thing isnt always going to be the easy thing to do.Id rather kids be taught common sense and honesty rather than the garbage that the zero tolerance crap has brought about.


these administrators get a failing grade.

 

[Walkalong]

Politicians make me
That's all a school board is. Polititions trying to keep their position.

 

[Marshall]

MNgoldenbear wrote:

Sigh. Once again, a lot of knee-jerk responses.


Let me preface my remarks by stating (for those who haven't read a post where I've noted this) that I've been a high school science teacher in public schools for the past 20 years, in two states and in very different circumstances with different clientele.

I can see where being high school science teacher makes you an authority and your response well thought out and more reasoned than ours.

Glad to see that some are recommending that EVERYONE (those involved and those making comments about the situation) try to use reason.

I can promise you that the responses you are reading against the schools actions are very reasonable and the fact that you think are not shows me how unreasonable your response really is. That and just reading it.

(if the facts are as represented). Does open the "can of worms" on possession. We can say that each case should be decided individually, but that brings up the cry of unequal treatment (racism/classism/assorted other "-isms") from those who are then punished more severely for what is claimed to be the same situation. We say that people should use common sense and show good judgment... until that judgment conflicts with ours, at which point we resort to saying that those who think differently than we do are "brain-dead", oppressive, evil, etc.

This is about the most jumbled logic and rambling I have ever read.

First of all, when handled reasonably and logically it doesn't open a can of worms on anything. You take the pellet gun, tell the kid thank you for bringing the gun to principal and doing the right thing and ask him where he found it. Period. Wow, what an epiphany!

Secondly, what is this crap about racism, classism and all that? Do you not get it? A situation is what you make of it and only what you make of it. This should have gone no farther than the principals office.

You speak of using common sense and good judgment until it conflicts with other good judgment? There is no "other" good judgment in this case, there is only stupidity.

Problem is not schools, courts, etc., much like the problems with violence are not problems with the weapons (as we often try to point out here). The problem is that all of these systems and entities involve PEOPLE. Life is a grand experiment, and humans are a lousy test subject -- we are non-uniform and unpredictable. These are not good characteristics for your experimental organism.

I'm glad you're a science teacher.

Yea, sure, right. Let's not be a responsible principal and use the old noggin, lets just act like an idiot and blame it on being human. Do you not understand that it is people, humans, that make up the schools and the courts that you say are not to blame. Do you not understand that people are the ones that make the policies of the schools. I can't believe I actually read that you wrote that.

Anyway, if people would stop suing every time something didn't go their way, and if people would stop to think about and take responsibility for their actions (this goes for everyone in this story), we probably wouldn't be having the discussion in this thread.

If my kid gets expelled and put in an alternative school for doing the right thing only because of one idiot principals actions, not only would I sue the school system, I would teach him a personal lesson as well. Well maybe not that, well maybe so, yea, I think so.

 

[Dravur]

You are right Migoi...

The kid could have found the gun and wandered around the school playing Rambo or John Wayne cinema theatre. He also could have gotten it off of space aliens. He might have been overcome by the mole people of ancient Egypt and forced to take the BB Gun.....

You see the Dilemma? We are going off of what we have read, nothing more. We have not embellished on this story and said "What if".

Based on what we have read and what is presented is what we have to go on. Also based on this, the School Board needs an Emergency Pickleectomy STAT. Until we are given more information or hear the other side, I am inclined to believe the School Board has all the common sense of a potted plant.

Now, if you would like to take the time to come up with any scenario you like., that's great. I will give my judgement based on the facts presented up until the time other facts come to light. Kind of like, I believe the Hindenberg blew up a long time ago. If the Hindenberg suddenly does a drive-fly of my house some evening, I shall adjust my views accordingly.

Oh, and MNGoldenbear..... There is animosity towards schools, etc. Wonder why? Perhaps it is soulless governmental control fostering lackadaisacal schools where the best a Yute can learn is where the best crack house is. Choice and Competition is the only hope for our schools.

 

[highlander 5]

let us remember the old chestnut "No good deed goes unpunished" shall we?

 

[LkWinnipesaukee]

So, instead of finding the kid who dropped the gun there, they decide to nail the good samaritan.


Makes sense. :banghead:

 

[Old Fuff]

According to the boy's mother the person who brought the pellet/BB gun to school was identified.... and arrested.

The whole incident has a smell of panic and anti-gun hysteria to it. Both seem to be pervasive in public schools today. School Boards, administrators, principals and teachers seem to be equally effected, and incapable of using common sense or reasoned judgment when faced with an issue. They simply run and hide behind some rule or handbook. Ultimately who suffers is the students, who are occasionally so young that they can’t understand what they did wrong, and sometimes in fact… they didn’t. :banghead:

 

[ConstitutionCowboy]

All This Is,

...is more indoctrination of the next generation to get them used to the police state. That is all "Zero Tolerance" is, and ever was, meant to be.

Woody

You can live free holding the stock and possibly never have to pull the trigger, or you can try to live free at the muzzle. I prefer to hold the stock and live free. Those at the muzzle never seem to fare quite so well. B.E.Wood

 

[OpFlash]

<< Playing Devil's Advocate

What's to stop some gang banger student to claim he "just found this gun and was on his way to turn it in" the next time someone is caught with a gun? The rules have to be black and white, not grey, and the kids trained to know exactly what to do when they see a weapon and the consequenses of disobeying those rules.

Devils Advocate mode off, Its a damn sad world we live in when this type of thing is necessary.

 

[SoCalShooter]

This seems backwards to me also. That kid is apparently to good to go to that school.

 

[Fosbery]

What ever happened to finder's keepers? You find a neat toy, unattended, that has been left in that condition for longer than the stipilations of the ten second rule require, it becomes yours

 

[carebear]

What ever happened to finder's keepers? You find a neat toy, unattended, that has been left in that condition for longer than the stipilations of the ten second rule require, it becomes yours

...and so did Mighty England's Empire grow, and pax Findica Keeperica spread across the globe.

 

[Old Fuff]

OpFlash:

The gang-banger type student is probably known to be what he is, not only to the school staff, but the police department as well. The kid in this story had a clean record, but it didn't make any difference. ANY association at all with this horrid gun was enought to get his butt busted, and apparently without any chance to appeal. Such is the way in today's public schools.

 

[vito]

I heard a live interview with the mother the day after the expulsion was announced. In her own words she stated that her son put the pellet gun in his pocket and returned to the lunchroom. When a member of the school administration came to the lunchroom, dismissed the girls and prepared to question the boys about the rumor that a gun had been hidden in the school, then and only then did the boy come to the Assistant Principal and turn in the gun. It appears that there was a perception by the boys that they were about to be searched, so that the turning in of the gun at that time may not have been in the interests of safety, but an attempt to avoid blame for having the gun in his pocket. I agree that there is enough in dispute in this case that expulsion was overkill, but the boy involved may not have the innocent good samaritan that he is now being made out to be. The "zero tolerance" policy of this and other schools is really only an admission of their inability to make discerning judgments and to replace such judgment by unthinking responses regardless of the actual nuances of the case. Once he pocketed the gun and did not immediately seek to turn it into an authority individual the boy moved from being a solution to the situation to being part of the problem. Maybe a suspension or other discipline would have been more appropriate, but treating him as a hero when in fact he only turned in the gun when it appeared he might be found to have it in his possession anyway, is quite a difference.

 

[Landor]

Hmmm

 

[migoi]

Vito...

thanks for supplying a fuller explanation of the

Morgan's mother says a short time later Morgan gave the gun to the Troy Middle School assistant principal.

part in the original story.

It was that "short time later" part that made me very cautious about jumping on the "this is a travesty" bandwagon. The whole timing matter is important in this situation.

migoi