Teen Paralyzed by ND of Illegal CCW

[308nato]

CountGlockula:
If it ever comes to pass y'all need my book 365 ways to prepare Spam.
you can fry, it you can grill it ,you can broil it, bread it and chicken fry steak
it etc. etc .

 

[Idano]

Leanwolf You asked a damn good question that no one has been able to answer. I carried my Springfield Armory 1911A loaded at 1/2 cock position and supposedly it was not suppose to be able to drop the hammer until it was fully cocked and the the safety in the back strap depressed, but it did, not once but twice and now it is gone. It's from this experience that I will no longer carry a loaded auto that doesn't have a decock safety and a external hammer that physically can not touch the firing pin with the safety on like the Beretta 92F or the Ruger P95DC. I like my SIG, but I will not carry it loaded, if that hammer drops it can go off.I no longer carry an auto in the field my new pack gun is a 44 mag Colt Anaconda and I carry it on an empty cylinder.

 

[rbernie]

stuff like this makes me wonder why so many people insist on carrying one in the chamber.

Because a pistol that isn't loaded is an unergonomic club, and a pistol that's loaded but doesn't have a round chambered isn't much better.

Let's not pretend that these things aren't dangerous. They are. And anyone who carries one knows that, because that's the very reason that they carry it. They want it to be dangerous to whomever is on the business end. Sometimes, tho, they don't stop to take stock of the responsibility that comes with that. And sometimes, bad things happen as a result.

Is that the pistol's fault? No. Is that the gunnie community's fault? Probably not. Is it the fault of the moron who failed to think through his approach and implementation? Pretty much.

Mick Rubalcava got careless and somebody else is going to pay the price of that for the rest of her life. This is no different than if he was driving under the influence and plowed his vehicle into hers and caused a similar injury. He was stupid, the object was simply the implement of his stupidity, and the bystander was caught up in the luck of the draw. Crappy, but it's the way life is.

Do we blame cars for DUI accidents? Should we consider it the responsibility of Ford to teach people 'when to say when'? Maybe people should drive cars with 10mph speed governers, to help render tham 'safer'. That would be pretty much analagous to carryin' a pistol with an empty chamber, in my view.

I carried my Springfield Armory 1911A loaded at 1/2 cock position and supposedly it was not suppose to be able to drop the hammer until it was fully cocked and the the safety in the back strap depressed, but it did, not once but twice and now it is gone.

The thumb safety prevents movement of the trigger/sear, not the hammer. If the hammer pushes off half-cock, it's defective. The grip safety can't help you with that; getting the pistol fixed would.

 

[carebear]

I carried my Springfield Armory 1911A loaded at 1/2 cock position and supposedly it was not suppose to be able to drop the hammer until it was fully cocked and the the safety in the back strap depressed, but it did, not once but twice and now it is gone.

"Half-cock" is not a recommended or safe carry position for the 1911. It is ONLY a safety shelf if, for whatever reason, you are lowering the hammer on a loaded round (also not a recomended carry technique) and your thumb slips off the hammer. If you have released the trigger after beginning to lower the hammer the "half-cock" should catch the hammer. But it might not, which is why you don't carry 1911's that way.

1911's are safe to carry in only two carry positions, empty chamber (hammer in any position) or cocked and locked. Not loaded chamber half- or un-cocked.

Check the manual.

my new pack gun is a 44 mag Colt Anaconda and I carry it on an empty cylinder.

Assuming the innards haven't been monkeyed with, you can hit the Anaconda's hammer with a 5 pound sledge and it can't set off a chambered round.

Carry how you like, it's your choice, but you're blaming the Colt for a human-caused problem and protecting the Anaconda from a statistical impossibility.

 

[Derby FALs]

FWIW, there were 646 CCW permits in Stanislaus County as of 2005.

That is about 1% of the population isn't it?

"If Mr. Rubalcava had not broken the law, she would be well today," said Terry Dalrymple, the international coordinator for Medical Ambassadors, a Christian missionary group that works in developing countries.

God only knows. She may have walked out the school door only to be killed by a drunken motorist.

 

[Car Knocker]

That is about 1% of the population isn't it?

Less.

 

[Gordon]

Stanislaus county is actually about mid way in the availabilty of CCWs in Kali. The guy was an off duty armed guard. If Kali. had constitutional Shall Issue, instead of the corrupt and unconstitutional system it has had imposed by drooling socialist buggerers , this man would be using a proper holster instead of sneaking. Therefore it is the antigun people of the state that caused this tradgedy and the ACLU should sue all the legislators who passed such rubbish:banghead:

 

[Outlaws]

Stanislaus county is actually about mid way in the availabilty of CCWs in Kali. The guy was an off duty armed guard. If Kali. had constitutional Shall Issue, instead of the corrupt and unconstitutional system it has had imposed by drooling socialist buggerers , this man would be using a proper holster instead of sneaking. Therefore it is the antigun people of the state that caused this tradgedy and the ACLU should sue all the legislators who passed such rubbish

Just pass the blame somewhere else, thats what everyone else does...

This guy used POOR gun handling and is 100% to blame. No one forced him to put a gun in a backpack. He could have concealed it on his hip like thousands of other people do every day. If its concealed, no one would know. Otherwise its not "concealed". You can still use a holster even in a backpack.

 

[salvador31c]

who graduated from the police academy

Well he should have known better, they do teach safety right?

"I made a really bad decision," he said. "I never even thought in my wildest imagination that a gun could go off without pulling the trigger."

He threw himself on the mercy of the court by pleading guilty early in the legal process, acknowledging that he deserves to be punished.

At least he was man enough to take some of the blame and plead guilty even though he should take all of it

 

[ndh87]

"I never even thought in my wildest imagination that a gun could go off without pulling the trigger."

sounds like he didnt know too much about guns...

 

[RevolvingCylinder]

Rubalcava showed complete disreguard for the safety of others in his reckless weapon handling. He could not be bothered to but it even in a pistol rug or holster before placing it in the backpack. So yes, it's entirely his fault and he should be punished for it.

And a Colt Anaconda is not a Colt SAA. Your fear of the loaded cylinder in the Anaconda is irrational but its yours so carry as you like.

 

[Idano]

carebear I just checked the manual and you are correct, it is not safe to carry the 19911A1 at 1/2 cock position. The only safe way to carry a 1911A1 is unloaded, not my words the manufacturer;"Do not carry the pistol with either of the safety stops engaged. Always keep and carry your pistol with an empty chamber and with the hammer forward until you intend to shoot, so your pistol cannot be fired unintentionally." http://www.springfield-armory.com/Manuals/1911man5.pdf
So I still stand by my statement that a loaded auto that doesn't have a decock safety and a external hammer that physically can not touch the firing pin with the safety on like the Beretta 92F or the Ruger P95DC isn't safe to carry.

However, you comments about the Anaconda are incorrect. The Anaconda has stair stepped trigger and a disconnecting rod must be in place for the hammer to engage the firing pin; that's from the factory. So there is no way the hammer, when at rest, can come in contact with the firing pin regardless of the amount force it is smacked with unless it busts the hammer .I have attached a picture of the hammer, firing pin and disconnecting rod below.

 

[SilverBomber]

He should just lose the right to own a firearm. For his own safety included, he is a danger to himself.

 

[carebear]

Idano,

The "check the manual" was overly sarcastic. I apologize for that.

Empty chamber is, as written, perfectly safe. The advantage cocked and locked has over half-cock is the half cock position takes all the safeties out of the equation, the hammer is just resting on that shelf, free to move.

I trained to carry cocked and locked and consider it perfectly safe. In the holster it takes the thumb safety working itself off (admittedly not unknown) and then the grip safety being depressed at the same time the trigger is pulled (which really can't happen in a decent holster).

In your cases I'd question the mechanisms of the individual pistols rather than blame the basic design.

But the key is to do what you have done, figure out what works for you to carry comfortably.

 

[spartan55]

The First safety

The first and most important safety is sitting on your shoulders.......This man's must have beed disingaged or does not have one!!!!!!!!

Carebear,
I carry my 1911 two ways, both with a round in the chamber, 1) cocked and locked 2) Hammer down, always have always will

I realy do not recommend the 1911 for the novice or inexperienced CCW.

 

[carebear]

Carry how you will.

I've never seen a reason for chamber loaded, hammer down. It's not the easiest gun to thumb cock and if I could carry it that way I could always just carry it C&L.

Pretty much the only time any of mine aren't C&L are when they are in the safe, and then they're empty.

 

[Hook686]

Yesterday, 06:16 PM #4
geekWithA.45


wrote:

This is a tragedy, no doubt or question about it.

Let us also consider that part of the fault which lays on the state of California, whose policies are such that honest citizens, evaluating themselves to be in danger, have little recourse other than to carry illegally, which in turn promotes deep, unsafe concealment.


...
__________________
....

Comments putting the blame on another, be it a person, institution, or the 'government', always intrigue me. It is as though, I cannot drive as fast as I want, or carry the weapon I want, or drink as much as I want, or .... I want ....

Yup it is tough to get a CCW in California, but not impossible. The guy did not have a CCW, though I do not see how this would have ameliorated the current incident. The guy carried a loaded gun in a backpack that he dropped on the floor. Try, as folks do, to make excuses, to avoid the guy's own personal responsibility, escape me. I do not understand this.

The state of California had absolutely nothing to do with this incident. The ease, or difficulty, in obtaining a CCW, in California, had absolutely nothing to do with this incident. The guy acted, with disregard to the law, which he seemed aware of, and, with what seems to me. careless behavior, with a loaded firearm. A major negative in a young life resulted. Why so much effort to shift responsibility, and find fault with the choices of the people of California ?

 

[Idano]

spartan55 I have question, if you carry you 1911 loaded and with the hammer down is it not possible that the gun could go off if the hammer was struck? I am thinking if you fell or a something fell against you. I ask this because the Springfield 1911A1 I had the trigger would rest against the firing pin, do some of the 1911 have a detent in the hammer so a blow to the hammer wouldn't discharge the gun?

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Nobody here knows what gun was involved!
Nobody here knows if it was in a holster or not!
Nobody knows if the weapon was defective or not!
Nobody here should judge another!

IMO, this thread should be in "Legal and Political" but what do I know, I only go by facts instead of conjecture.

 

[Warbow]

Even if he did have a CCW, does CA law allow legal CCW on school grounds? Don't forget that's where this happened. I know here in Texas and many other shall-issue states it's still not legal with a CCW to carry on school grounds.

And it's 100% Rubalcava's fault. Because of his ignorance and stupidity, a young woman most likely will never walk ever again.

 

[Euclidean]

What I find amusing is that no one seems to care about the fact he messed up someone's life, but rather that he was breaking an unconstituitional law.

 

[Bubbles]

Maybe this is more important for the S&T forum, but... if you're carrying a handgun for self-defense, isn't a backpack the LAST place you'd want to put it? Most aren't designed to keep a handgun easily accessible and isolated from everything else in the bag so that you don't have to dig around for it in case you really need it.

And while this guy does need to spend some time in jail to drive home that he was a dumba$$, he also needs a big civil judgement against him to help pay for this girl's care and medical expenses.

 

[Warbow]

That is about 1% of the population isn't it?

And what percentage of the population within counties in shall-issue states hold permits?

Here in Dallas County, TX there were 2.3 million people as of the 2005 census. According to TX DPS, there are a little more than 20 thousand active CCW permits in Dallas County -- a little less than 1% of the county's population.

I doubt it's much different elsewhere.

 

[TexasRifleman]

I really do not recommend the 1911 for the novice or inexperienced CCW.

I do.

The fact that it's operation is such that you MUST pay attention makes it perfect for new folks.

The 1911 does not lull you into complacency with marketing of "safe action" and "decockers" and "foolproof" this and that.

You must learn to pay attention to the details with a 1911 and that's a good thing.

A Delta Elite was my very first handgun and I learned more than if I'd had just about anything else.

The safety is between your ears, nowhere else. On ANY manufacturers firearm.

 

[buzz_knox]

So I still stand by my statement that a loaded auto that doesn't have a decock safety and a external hammer that physically can not touch the firing pin with the safety on like the Beretta 92F or the Ruger P95DC isn't safe to carry.

I think that's a bit of a sweeping statement. A firing pin safety would go a long way to mitigating what is, really, an incredibly low probability risk but even then, the safety will not work if it has been bypassed as you did by carrying at half-cock. An LA SWAT officer died by dropping his Sig (which effectively meets your criteria) which discharged on impact. He'd apparently bypassed the internal safeties by manually lowering the hammer.

No weapon is safe to carry if one does not carry in a safe manner. If carried in a safe manner, Glocks and 1911s without firing pin safeties are as safe as Berettas and Rugers; and all of them are only safe as the person carrying them.