'Teenager murdered in terrifying machinegun attack' - United Kingdom
- Thread starter Cromlech
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MarineTech
Member
(engage sarcasm) Yeah, they're not allowed to have automatic weapons in the UK. Must be made up. Nothing like that could possibly happen with gun laws in place. (sarcasm disengaged)
RNB65
Member
BUT, BUT, BUT, those things are ILLEGAL! 
No one could possibly have one. No way!
Don't worry, the Police will protect you. There's simply no need for people to have the means to protect themselves.
No one could possibly have one. No way!Don't worry, the Police will protect you. There's simply no need for people to have the means to protect themselves.
battlehatch
Member
they just need to ban gunmen.
Big Calhoun
Member
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- Oct 16, 2006
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I dispute the source and the story. There is absolutely NO WAY that such a terrible incident could have happened in such a civilized and peaceful society! 
Manedwolf
member
The UK news sites are filled with articles about London's "gun culture" among youth, with people reporting that handguns are as common as cellphones among urban punks, thugs and criminals.
Interesting, considering they're completely banned there, hm?
The UK is getting worse and worse. I feel sorry for the people there, but we also have it to point to as a living experiment in what happens when you ban law-abiding citizens from owning handguns and/or defending themselves from criminals.
Interesting, considering they're completely banned there, hm?
The UK is getting worse and worse. I feel sorry for the people there, but we also have it to point to as a living experiment in what happens when you ban law-abiding citizens from owning handguns and/or defending themselves from criminals.
qlajlu
Member
A MACHINE GUN? Oh, one of those fully automatic assault rifles. The guy that wrote that article must have been on meth. Those types of weapons are totally restricted. No one in the civilian population can own a "machine gun" without jumping through more hoops than it is worth. Someone made this story up. They had to have. And on top of that, they are claiming that it happened in Merry Old England. Impossible I tell you, absolutely impossible. England restricts civilian ownership of all "guns" so I know this story is fake. I know it, I know it, I know it.
Chipperman
Member
I couldn't have been a machine gun. It must have been an assault Chef's knife. Oh wait.... those have been banned too.
Funny thing the Kings English is, it is.
In the Kings English, the term "Machine Gun" was originally intended to identify any firearm capable of firing more than a single blast without the need to be reloaded by the operator but requiring manual manipulation of a mechanism in order to fire successive shots.
The Collier flintlock multibarrel revolving flintlock carbines and pistols qualify as "Machine Guns" in the definition laid out by the Kings English.
Double barrel and single barrel, single shot, firearms do not meet the definition of a "Machine Gun" because the simple act of stroking a lever,(trigger), in order to release the spring powered firing mechanism so that it may fall upon and detonate the cap does not fully qualify as manual manipulation of the mechanism in order that a second shot may be brought to ready, however, three barrel drilling firearms do because they usually require the manipulation of a button or lever that is not the release lever for the cap detonater in order to fire the third barrel.
I myself being a born and bred Norte Americano have never cared for the term "Machine Gun", the meaning of which is far to broad in this day and age of weapons capable of firing 2000 rounds a minute and more.
I use and prefer the terms full automatic, semi automatic, manually operated repeating firearm and single shot to the archaic and often misused "machine gun".
After all, this ain't bloody ole England here and I damn well don't speak the "Kings English"!
In the Kings English, the term "Machine Gun" was originally intended to identify any firearm capable of firing more than a single blast without the need to be reloaded by the operator but requiring manual manipulation of a mechanism in order to fire successive shots.
The Collier flintlock multibarrel revolving flintlock carbines and pistols qualify as "Machine Guns" in the definition laid out by the Kings English.
Double barrel and single barrel, single shot, firearms do not meet the definition of a "Machine Gun" because the simple act of stroking a lever,(trigger), in order to release the spring powered firing mechanism so that it may fall upon and detonate the cap does not fully qualify as manual manipulation of the mechanism in order that a second shot may be brought to ready, however, three barrel drilling firearms do because they usually require the manipulation of a button or lever that is not the release lever for the cap detonater in order to fire the third barrel.
I myself being a born and bred Norte Americano have never cared for the term "Machine Gun", the meaning of which is far to broad in this day and age of weapons capable of firing 2000 rounds a minute and more.
I use and prefer the terms full automatic, semi automatic, manually operated repeating firearm and single shot to the archaic and often misused "machine gun".
After all, this ain't bloody ole England here and I damn well don't speak the "Kings English"!
69Chevy
Member
I was reading somewhere that a study was done asking criminals what they would do if handguns were banned and extremely hard to come by. Most said that they would simply use a sawed off shotgun instead. When all guns are banned, why waste your time on smuggling semi-autos, when full autos get the same punishment and are easier to get. This proves the point. So now thanks to britains anti-gun stance, they now have better equiped criminals.
qlajlu
Member
Well put, 69Chevy. But you are going to have a hard time convincing their PMs of that. The whole reason for the ban(s) was to get guns out of criminals' hands. Group punishment works...yeah...right. I need to go get some coffee and settle down...stupid...insane...argh!69Chevy said:
AmbulanceDriver
Member
blegh
So I decided I would comment on this story on their webpage.
Wrote about three paragraphs starting with the comment you see attributed to me at the bottom of the page.
Observed that clearly banning guns hadn't worked, so they would start needing to be tough on CRIMINALS.
Great commentary, if I can pat myself on the back for a moment.
After hitting submit, then they tell you that your comment will be "reviewed" shortly, and possibly "edited"
So then you get my one little sentence saying "But I was under the impression most firearms were banned in the UK"
So I decided I would comment on this story on their webpage.Wrote about three paragraphs starting with the comment you see attributed to me at the bottom of the page.
Observed that clearly banning guns hadn't worked, so they would start needing to be tough on CRIMINALS.
Great commentary, if I can pat myself on the back for a moment.
After hitting submit, then they tell you that your comment will be "reviewed" shortly, and possibly "edited"
So then you get my one little sentence saying "But I was under the impression most firearms were banned in the UK"
cloudedice
Member
Can't have those pesky gun-nuts bringing facts and reason into the discussion, just rhetorical questions...
Sistema1927
Member
Quoting from The Onion again?
Evil Monkey
member
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- 1,486
Stop feeding the troll. These things don't happen in the Utopia Great Britain.
What actually happened is that the freindly neighborhood joy giver drove by and threw out candy to every one.
What actually happened is that the freindly neighborhood joy giver drove by and threw out candy to every one.
yhtomit
Member
Right on, Onmilo
About that sticky nomenclature problem ...
Word snobbery (or maybe "overcertainty") is too common in certain circles, and the gun world is sadly one of them, even though there are some good reasons to be prickly about the use of terms like "automatic" and "machine gun."
By "good reasons," I mean to prevent (accidental) confusion and (completely intentional) misdirection on the part of those who either don't know the current (and sometimes place-specific) conventions for using terms like "automatic" or who want to muddle the issue.
(Sometimes people forget that there are terms of art which aren't always identical to the plain-language meaning of the words they contain, and that words and phrases generally are simply ambiguous without a good dose of context.)
"Autopistol" is short for "Automatic pistol," isn't it, even though generally speaking that term is applied to *semi-automatic* pistols? Still, we've come to accept "automatic" in that case, for the good reason that it conveys a shared meaning.
In a very slightly different parallel universe, (double-action) revolvers could be called "semi-automatic" without raising an eyebrow, because they can be fired multiple times through the same barrel without manual reloading simply by repeatedly pulling the trigger. There's an arbitrary distinction that we follow now though which divides the world of single-barrel, multi-shot handguns into "autopistols" and "revolvers" ... for people unfamiliar with the terms, the difference may seem pretty odd. After all, there are quite a few systems for feeding cartridges to the chamber of an autopistol -- so why does the class of gun which happens to use a revolving cylinder get its own class?
What I'm getting at here is that in explaining to people who aren't (for instance) intuitively aware that a semi-automatic rifle is "only" semi-automatic rather than "automatic," or that a civilian-legal Saiga 308 is not a "machine gun" as that term is now generally employed, just remember that *no one* -- ever! anywhere! -- is intuitively aware of these It's a matter of convention and definition, and most folks have no reason or opportunity to learn some of these distinctions. That's why to some people, a "machine gun" is anything that doesn't look like a revolver or a break-action shotgun, and that doesn't make them idiots. It just shows a gap in experience, which can be rectified by a non-patronizing, non-haughty explanation of how those terms are employed in the main by shooters, makers, and lawmakers. *
timothy
* Ignoring that each of these classes sometimes offers good examples of word uses that would cause forehead slapping and groaning among most readers of this board!
About that sticky nomenclature problem ...
Word snobbery (or maybe "overcertainty") is too common in certain circles, and the gun world is sadly one of them, even though there are some good reasons to be prickly about the use of terms like "automatic" and "machine gun."
By "good reasons," I mean to prevent (accidental) confusion and (completely intentional) misdirection on the part of those who either don't know the current (and sometimes place-specific) conventions for using terms like "automatic" or who want to muddle the issue.
(Sometimes people forget that there are terms of art which aren't always identical to the plain-language meaning of the words they contain, and that words and phrases generally are simply ambiguous without a good dose of context.)
"Autopistol" is short for "Automatic pistol," isn't it, even though generally speaking that term is applied to *semi-automatic* pistols?
Still, we've come to accept "automatic" in that case, for the good reason that it conveys a shared meaning. In a very slightly different parallel universe, (double-action) revolvers could be called "semi-automatic" without raising an eyebrow, because they can be fired multiple times through the same barrel without manual reloading simply by repeatedly pulling the trigger. There's an arbitrary distinction that we follow now though which divides the world of single-barrel, multi-shot handguns into "autopistols" and "revolvers" ... for people unfamiliar with the terms, the difference may seem pretty odd. After all, there are quite a few systems for feeding cartridges to the chamber of an autopistol -- so why does the class of gun which happens to use a revolving cylinder get its own class?
What I'm getting at here is that in explaining to people who aren't (for instance) intuitively aware that a semi-automatic rifle is "only" semi-automatic rather than "automatic," or that a civilian-legal Saiga 308 is not a "machine gun" as that term is now generally employed, just remember that *no one* -- ever! anywhere! -- is intuitively aware of these
It's a matter of convention and definition, and most folks have no reason or opportunity to learn some of these distinctions. That's why to some people, a "machine gun" is anything that doesn't look like a revolver or a break-action shotgun, and that doesn't make them idiots. It just shows a gap in experience, which can be rectified by a non-patronizing, non-haughty explanation of how those terms are employed in the main by shooters, makers, and lawmakers. *timothy
* Ignoring that each of these classes sometimes offers good examples of word uses that would cause forehead slapping and groaning among most readers of this board!
Irwin
Member
Are we sure it was a full auto weapon? You have to mind this is the daily mail were talking about its just a scaremongering paper, like scottish comedian frankie boyle said "we are about 3 weeks away from the daily mail head line saying that assulum seakers bring new type of aids to britain which lower house prices" (not exact quote but it was on thm lines.
Irwin
Irwin
Outlaws
Member
Thats a good question....was this an "uzi-type" weapon in semi auto and they just called it a "machine gun" or was it infact a fully auto "uzi-type" weapon?
Cromlech
Member
There is no civilian market for semi-auto firearms in the U.K, other than shotguns and .22 firearms.
It was probably either a genuine Mac-10/11 or Uzi. It could be an illegal weapon smuggled in, or a reactivated firearm (from a deactivated one, which is legal).
Third_Rail
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Or a simple open-bolt firearm made in a small basement machine shop from $20 worth of metal. The expensive part in the UK is the ammo, not the gun.
CaCrusin
Member
When I lived in the UK in the early '70s they had just banned most handguns. The price of a Beretta 92 went to over 300 pounds on the black market. You could buy a Czech .32 Skorpion Machine Pistol with 5 loaded magazines for just 125 pounds and they had lots of them. Guess which gun became the weapon of choice for the gangs and other criminals. I was offered a Sterling Sub-Machine Gun with a ammo can full of loaded magazines that had been stolen from the Ulster Defense Regiment (national guard) in Northern Ireland, as a Christmas gift. Sadly, I had to turn it down.
Gun control doesn't work.
CaCrusin
Gun control doesn't work.
CaCrusin
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