Tell my Dad why .22LR/.25ACP is no good for SD

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As has been said, if he is gonna go with a .22 or .25 make sure he gets a good one Browning Buckmark or a Ruger MKII. Both are proven designs and when used with CCI stingers will provide the best results.
Someones Tag Line once said "a .22 to the head from across the street will surely ruin your day more than a miss from a .45" Take him to the range and rent some guns to see what he likes best. I would recommend a Ruger LCP for him. That is my bare minimum and I can even wear it with running shorts, it weighs nothing so it goes everywhere with me! Better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it.
 
My dad wanted a 22 at first too, but I ended up convincing him to get a S&W airweight .38. Actually it was kinda luck the guy at the store had a good deal on one. Then after he shot my .40 he wants to go bigger. The best bet is like a bunch of people have said just take him out to the range and let him shoot a few different calibers and see what he wants. A 22 is still capable though and better then nothing.
 
lions said:
1. I assume you just have a .22 or .25 for self defense, if not, why not?
2. As far as how much it hurts, have you been shot with both? Do you realize that everyone handles pain and trauma differently regardless of drugs?
3. Are you willing to bet your life that you will never need your gun in self defense? And if so, why do you have a gun at all?
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You assume a lot, these are silly statements.

Where are all of the people that have been the victim of this mystery invincable, wont stop for anything because he has to get you at all costs, super man bad guy? Why are they not chiming in and telling us how, thank God they had put two mags of .45 in this mystery guy and they finally put one into his head as he continued to claw his way at them? Not very many of them are there? And the ones that do exsist, have more to do with domestic violence and people you know. Those are the facts!

The magazines might tell you that this bad guy is for real, but the facts and statisics say that almost all attackers are oppertunists that look for someone weak and that burgalers look for a house that no one is home. The facts also say that just yelling/screaming and fighting back ends most attacks. I know, I know, so why do I have a gun at all, when I can just scream and fight back?

Most attacks end just at the mere sight of the victim with a gun, they don't stop to ask what caliber it is.
 
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One thing with small .38 revolvers: the recoil can be nasty with "self defense" ammo -- from the perspective of a non-enthusiast -- especially with the lightweight guns. I load bevel-base wadcutters for small .38s, and the recoil is reduced.

I consider the .38 wadcutter to be a good balance between effectiveness and recoil. It's also the only .38 ammo I can get around here at the moment. Thank God I had a supply of primers stashed away! In a recent water test, the wadcutter went completely through four jugs of water (24+ inches of water) and stopped inside the fifth. This is the bullet:

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Regards,
Dirty Bob
 
bangkok:
And the ones that do exsist [sic], have more to do with domestic violence and people you know.
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So you admit that the possibility exists but assume that it can't/won't happen to his father... who is being "silly"?

Most attacks end just at the mere sight of the victim with a gun, they don't stop to ask what caliber it is.
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I'm not arguing that, I'm saying its not about the odds, its about the stakes.
 
In the worst year ever, Winston-Salem, NC...with a population of 165,000 at the time...recorded 37 or 38 home invasions. Defined as forced or surreptious entry while the dwelling is occupied, as opposed to burglary/illegal entry...in which the dwelling is unoccupied.

Given such a small chance that a given home will be invaded, and that the chances of less than 1% that the invader will be the "monster" who can't be stopped...the odds for needing anything more than a small caliber handgun are pretty slim.

That said...lions is correct. It's not about the odds. It's about the stakes on the outside chance that the monster does come to call on this night...and that's what shotguns are for.

Nobody in his right mind will walk into a deadly situation with a pistol unless there is no other choice.
When I'm at home...there's always a choice. Make mine buckshot.
 
lions said:
So you admit that the possibility exists but assume that it can't/won't happen to his father... who is being "silly"?
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Yes, of course the possibility exists (a brown bear could knock on my door also), but the facts show that the domestic violence I was speaking of is almost always a man against "his" woman or said man against her "new man". That seems to lower those already low odds for most.

And when that situation does happen, most people that carry end up either over reacting and shooting up everything and everyone (except the bad guy) or even more so, end up under reacting and never even draw. I mean, there are the real facts and then there are the magazines telling you the ballistics this and an attacker that, the magazines are trying to sell their sponsers expensive wares.

As for "silly", I meant the way you posed your questions in a school yard manner, that's all.

I don't want anyone to think I oppose larger calibers for SD, that's not the case at all. But, I wouldn't hesitate pulling out whatever I had at the time. If his father wants a pocket .22, why do we care, that's what he wants? It is a gun, makes him feel safe and will do it's job (as long as it's not a cheap pistol). I still would love to hear from any of the victims of attacks that you drew down on and the bad guy just kept coming. Police put themselves into the bad guy situation daily for whole careers and almost everyone of them never has to fire a shot, let alone unload 15 rounds of 9mm or whatever.

As for a home invasion, that is about being over powered by a number of armed "thugs". Most people wont have time to react in anyway, and supposing you did draw on them, you would surely start a gunfight, that would scatter everyone for cover. Your .22 or .44 magnum started the fight and disburst the group just the same, and the facts are in a wild gunfight almost all bullets miss their target. So once again, it wouldn't be the caliber but the gun. This is where a shotgun would be your friend, but either way, your out numbered!:)
 
bangkok:
Yes, of course the possibility exists...
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It is a possibility, you agree with me here.
This is where a shotgun would be your friend...
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Bigger is better, you agree with me here.

That is the basis of my argument, we'll just keep going round and round about the chances of something happening when I've already addresed that.
I'm saying its not about the odds, its about the stakes.
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I don't see this going anywhere so I'm out, have a nice day!
 
You hacked up my quotes and took them out of context. But I give, you win, bigger is better.

I too, shall take my exit.
 
beretta in 25 is a nice pistol I have 3 of them and 9 rounds of 25 will ruin your day ball goes around 16" in jell test That is enough . 380 kelTec 9mm all these little pistols to much recoil with out practice He will try at range once and then stop with KelTec or LCP .
Help him find a beretta in 25 or a tomcat in 32.
People in this country for years and years have used the 22,25,, 32 auto 32 short, and 32 long ,for self defense in their homes or stores
 
I don't think the .22lr is useless. But just tell him something like a .38 Special is still very easy to shoot and has much better power.

I don't understand why he is reluctant to go to medium powered cartridges?

He can definitely find J framed revolvers that he can hide in his pocket, as I'm sure you've told him. He doesn't have to use the +P ammo.

Just let him know that it is easy to control a small framed revolver after a little practice. It's no big deal at all IMHO. (I'm not talking about bullseye accuracy, you get what I mean.)

ETA: He could always go with a Seecamp in .32acp if he wants a small pocket gun that doesn't have alot of recoil (but gives him much more power than a .22.lr). You can order those direct from the factory but the lag time is about 5 months.
 
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Well, 22LR will do most of what any other caliber will do. You can afford to practice with it a lot, too. 25 Auto on the other hand is probably no better than 22LR and it's a pretty expensive caliber to shoot, even compared to other centerfire pistol calibers.
 
I love these type of threads. Especially when the responses lean towards the many times said: "It's better than nothing"; "It's better than a sharp stick"; "It's better than throwing rocks"; etc... Maybe some people should just learn to realize the truth; that calibers like 25acp and 32acp are perfectly fine for personal self defense. Especially if it's a carry gun. "If you shoot someone with a 25acp and don't kill them, it's just going to make them made and they'll come after you". What a crock. When you pull a gun out on a would be robber, mugger, or rapist; (Those are the people you CARRY a gun against); they aren't there analyzing the caliber of gun you have. Hell; they were 99.9% sure you DIDN'T EVEN HAVE A GUN. If they thought you did, they would have found an easier target. And this isn't the OK Coral. You're not going to be having a "Shoot Out" where you need a 15-18 round magazine.

The moment you pull out the gun, one of 2 things will happen. The attacker will turn and run away, or he won't. 95% of the time, stats show that simply brandishing a weapon is enough to neutralize the threat. The other 5% of the time is where YOU DECIDE. I say you, because whether the gun is a 25acp or a 44 magnum; that gun ISN'T GOING TO SAVE YOUR LIFE. No gun since the beginning of gun powder has EVER SAVED A LIFE. "Guns Don't Save people - People Save People". And "IF" you decide to pull that gun out, it's not to try and "SCARE THE BAD GUY" away. If you pull the gun out and he leaves; fantastic. If instead he takes 1 step towards you; you need to pull the trigger. If you aren't willing to do that on the very first step he took towards you, you shouldn't have pulled out the gun. And the moment you do pull the trigger on the 1st round; 95% of the remaining 5% of scenarios, the attacker is going to leave. So that leaves 0.3% of the time where your gun can be a useful tool. And if you know how to use it. And are a DOBA shooter; "Dead On Balls Accurate". Then that 25acp to the face or throat is more than enough to get you out of a threatening situation. And after all; that is the purpose of the gun. To assist you in stopping a threat. Killing an attacker is just a possible side affect of the gun.

And yes, I have carried 25acp for protection. I really like military/police weapons. Especially historical and actual used weapons. So my main 3 carry guns are a walther PPK/FEG Clone (Have both) 32acp; a CZ-82 makarov; and a Sig P220 45acp. And I feel just as safe with any of the 3. I carry each one at different times depending on the time of year, weather, clothing, etc... And I feel just as comfortable because I know that the gun is just a tool. And that it's ME who is going to SAVE MY LIFE. Not the gun. And when you learn to use all the tools available, and stop relying on "The Gun"; the more safe you'll be. Of course no one wants to talk about the MANY TIMES where you can't get to your gun. Attacker got you from behind; possible car jacking where you weren't prepared; etc... There are plenty of times where your gun might as well be a cell phone in your pocket. Then what???

Anyway; original poster; if your dad is an accurate shot. If your dad has a reliable weapon. If your dad can calmly use that weapon. And if your dad has confidence when carrying that particular gun. Then good for him. You probably need to back off.
 
Any updates SuperMagnum after the members here were nice enough to give you their opinions?
 
I remember an incident from years ago that has left an impression on me.

Back then, I had a job in a county hospital, so we got our fair share of gunshot wound victims coming into the emergency room. I was an EKG tech back in the day before those machines could think for themselves. Anyway, one evening, two victims arrived. They had been in an altercation that led person A to shoot person B with a .22. Person A emptied his mag into person B, but person B just kept on coming, took the gun away from person A, and pistol whipped him about the head with the empty weapon.

Person B - with 6 bullets in him - was treated and did not require hospitalization. He was a big, beefy guy that was built like the stereotype of a Hell's Angel biker. All that beef/fat just caught the bullets without penetrating far enough to strike an organ.

Person A - with severe skull fractures and brain swelling as a result of the beating - was in a coma at the time I saw him. Don't know what ultimately happened to him.

Another incident that sticks in my memory.

A distraught person walked up to the entrance to the ER, pulled out a .22 pistol, placed it against his right temple, and fired. The bullet went into the brain, struck the other side of the skull, and bounced back, creating a second path of brain destruction. He died.

Sometimes it's not about caliber. Sometimes it's about distance from the target and what the bullet hits.
 
I remember an incident from years ago that has left an impression on me.

Back then, I had a job in a county hospital, so we got our fair share of gunshot wound victims coming into the emergency room. I was an EKG tech back in the day before those machines could think for themselves. Anyway, one evening, two victims arrived. They had been in an altercation that led person A to shoot person B with a .22. Person A emptied his mag into person B, but person B just kept on coming, took the gun away from person A, and pistol whipped him about the head with the empty weapon.

Person B - with 6 bullets in him - was treated and did not require hospitalization. He was a big, beefy guy that was built like the stereotype of a Hell's Angel biker. All that beef/fat just caught the bullets without penetrating far enough to strike an organ.

Person A - with severe skull fractures and brain swelling as a result of the beating - was in a coma at the time I saw him. Don't know what ultimately happened to him.

Another incident that sticks in my memory.

A distraught person walked up to the entrance to the ER, pulled out a .22 pistol, placed it against his right temple, and fired. The bullet went into the brain, struck the other side of the skull, and bounced back, creating a second path of brain destruction. He died.

Sometimes it's not about caliber. Sometimes it's about distance from the target and what the bullet hits.
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I remember a young man with a Jodie Foster fetish almost killing a president, a secret service agent and James Brady with a .22.

I remember RFK was killed with a .22

I've seen countless stories on the news where people have been killed with a .22

That said, shot placement is everything.

If your dad is insistent on getting a .22, let it be a .22mag.

Show him this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Lo2yfwk1mw
 
The father of the OP is going to buy what he wants. The man is old enough to have actually experienced life.

There are literally tens of thousands of .22, .25, and various iterations of .32 and .38 cartridges besides the .38 Special, in drawers of desks and dressers throughout the country. Over 99% of them have never been used in anger. Why? Because the VAST majority of us will never NEED a gun.

It's fine to snort and ask why you have a gun, then, but pretty dumb. Why do you have hospitalization, or insurance, or a spare tire, or even a spare quart of oil? After all, you'll likely not need them, either. Is there a minimum required level for any of them? You know, relevant to the "minimum caliber" idea?

The fact that someone possesses a gun, of whatever caliber, is their business. Face it, the chances of needing it are vanishingly small. Then, there's the documented fact that just showing a gun many times ends the criminal activity. Or the report of a round causing the bad guy to leave, post-haste. The object is more to HAVE a gun, and show that one is willing to use it, than the caliber.

I would attempt to convince him to choose a heavier caliber, as well. However, getting him into a gun that he'll shoot is more important than ballistics. You can't miss fast enough to save your life.

As far as 9mm goes, it's a nice caliber for the barely trained to shoot the reluctant with. Everybody leaves on their own two feet, feeling like they learned a valuable lesson.

Self-defense begins with a "4" in it's caliber. See, it's not at all hard to denigrate any choice.:rolleyes:
 
tell him to look into kahr, or kel-tec pf 9, especially the kel-tec. tell him to check out the police takedown rates per caliber...there out there. in fact I still have a packet with some of those stats (if you interested in them) from my concealed carry test. Its scary what a difference caliber will make. showed my mom the same stats...the next week she bought a .45 filled with hydrashoks.
 
These discussions would be a bit funny if it were not for the potencially dangerous opinion some less than smart people would get.

Too many people get the idea that a .22 is a joke from reading what some keyboard comandos and gun magazine gurus spout. It's a firearm, and it's deadly, and it will kill you. I wonder if that idiot who wanted to put a hole in the wall for his TV dish wire and used a .22 that went through the wall and killed his wife, had the opinion that a .22 was a joke.

In 40 years of reading The American Rifleman and the Armed Citizen collum, I have never seen a single incident of any gun failing to stop a home invasion or robbery. The insidents covered by the American Rifleman range from 12 gauge shotguns to .22's and most things in between. In ALL cases, once the homeowner has a gun, ANY gun, the criminal flees. In all cases were the criminal is shot, he flees out of the house to drop dead down the street, in the yard, or seeks medical attention and is arrested. No matter what the gun he's shot with. With few exeptions of a shotgun at close range, it seems like most handguns don't instantly drop the the criminal, but once shot, the criminal puts 100% of his energy into getting out of there, not staying and shooting it out with a homeowner. They even covered a story of an elderly couple who were invaded and tied up on the bedroom floor, while they ransaked the house. The man got free of the bonds and grabbed a .22 rifle from the bedroon closet and chased off the criminals. The rifle was not even loaded.

A .22 is a deadly weapon and is very capable of defending your home if used well by a competent shot. The original posters father has made it this far in life, it's a little insulting to try to convince him of the errors of his ways, in that he's doing just fine. If he wants a .22, fine, get him a good .22 revolver and take him shooting alot so he's good with it. Because of the priming issue in a rimfire, I would be carefull to get him a revolver, so if nothing happens, the trigger can just be pulled again. A Smith and Wesson 317 with the three inch barrel will make him a fine house gun. He's not going to be interested in the young gun nuts fantacy of standing off a horde of crazed hells angles or chinese paprtropers, or the mythical 250 pound crack addict that looks like Conan the Barbarian. He does not read Guns and Ammo magazine or any other of the gun rags, and does not know he's not ready for a fierce firefight. But with a .22 revolver he has used and practiced a lot with, he'll be just fine if something goes bump in the night.
 
He's not going to be interested in the young gun nuts fantasy of standing off a horde of crazed hells angles or Chinese paratroopers, or the mythical 250 pound crack addict that looks like Conan the Barbarian.
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You have neglected to mention the ubiquitous zombie-bears. The TRUE test of a home/self-defense weapon; "How many zombie-bears per magazine load can be put down?"
NOTE: Please check with your local police for zombie-bear hunting regulations and seasons.

BTW- Most "dads" are older and have a tad more life experience than their well-intentioned sons. Suggest some pistols, then let dad pick out his own gun. If you disagree with his choice...relax...it won't be the first (nor the last) time you will disagree.
 
If your dad has arthritis or other joint issues, then a .22lr is probably the best bet.....what hurts theleast to shoot is going to be the gun he's going to be most like to practice with, thus be the most proficient with.

Either way, it meets rule1.

If you want to get him a better gun, perhaps a Guardian in 32NAA? It's a nice blend of size and power (although pricey).
 
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