Tense Florida Traffic Stop with Firearms

[brboyer]

I have seen this a lot from friends in Florida who are LEOs.
I have mostly seen it in Dade County, because there is a ton of crime there. A lot of them say they disarm as a general rule, no matter what the situation. Which, in Florida, seems to be easy to categorize as "for the safety of the officer."

I must say, though, that most are just the usual: Step out of the car, LEO takes the gun, checks the stolen gun database, unloads it, and proceeds with the stop. No back up or car searches.

It's a dominance and control thing more than it's a safety thing.

That's why, in most cases, the best answer to the 'any guns' question is "No".

 

[nyresq]

Because you DIDN'T lie and DIDN'T behave like a lawyer for the ACLU, you drove away without a ticket and no one was forced to lay face down on the ground. The cop may have been nervous about something, you may have looked like someone, but regardless you were treated with respect and didn't get handed a $250 ticket at the end of the night.

Had you lied and said "no", and he patted you down and felt it, you may have been chewing blacktop while your wife and child gets a gun pointed at them. Then you probably would have been cited for every violation he could think of, charged with making false statements and who knows what else. You may beat the rap but it costs you a small fortune in legal fees. Do you really win in that situation?

I think you did the right thing being honest and you came away on top. A talk with a supervisor from that department couldnt hurt, it may shed some light on why the deputy was so nervous, but "complaints" when you werent issued a ticket can be taken the wrong way. If you frequent the area, next time you won't be cut any slack.

Just my own thoughts...

 

[Auf Grosser Fahrt]

Typical overbearing B.S. from alleged professional law enforcement.

Wonder why so many average citizens have little respect for police?

Give a guy a leather belt and watch him puff up like a peacock.

Typical.

 

[2DREZQ]

Typical overbearing B.S. from alleged professional law enforcement.

Wonder why so many average citizens have little respect for police?

Give a guy a leather belt and watch him puff up like a peacock.

Typical.

I don't know that I would call it typical. It is certainly more common than it should be (it should be never), but I've no experience with Florida cops.

I think we may be getting a skewed view of how our LEO's operate. The widespread ability to video-tape our cops is a good thing (keeps 'em on their toes), but all we see posted on youtube are the bad incidents. Never seen (because they would be boring) are the hundreds of thousands of police/civilian interactions where everyone makes nice, or even where the civvy is a total jackass, and the cop acts like a professional. I still believe that 99% of our cops are good people doing their best, and I will give them the benifit of the doubt until they prove they don't deserve it.

 

[ColtPythonElite]

Amen nyresq.

 

[dirtengineer]

Sounds like you did good in a less than idea situation.

 

[Tony_the_tiger]

That's why, in most cases, the best answer to the 'any guns' question is "No".

Seems like in this case I would have been pat down and then had weapons draw on me and then cited and/or further detained. At least, that's what I was led to believe.

When the officer asked "Are you armed?" why didn't you say "Yes sir but I have a permit."? You DO have a permit don't you?

I answered yes to being armed and, subsequently, yes to being a permit holder in FL.

No, but they could forcefully enter the vehicle and extract the passenger for refusal to exit

I'm confused about the rights of the passenger. There doesn't seem to be justification here to force a passenger to exit the vehicle. What gives the officer a right to disarm me and my passenger during a traffic stop for speeding when both of us are permit holders with no records? Is it a crime to not disclose that there is a firearm when asked directly? Turns out I don't know my rights in this situation.

ONLY if the person they've stopped is both a) the owner of that car, and b) that car is from FL.

Both of these criteria are true.

Because you DIDN'T lie and DIDN'T behave like a lawyer for the ACLU, you drove away without a ticket and no one was forced to lay face down on the ground. The cop may have been nervous about something, you may have looked like someone, but regardless you were treated with respect and didn't get handed a $250 ticket at the end of the night.

Had you lied and said "no", and he patted you down and felt it, you may have been chewing blacktop while your wife and child gets a gun pointed at them. Then you probably would have been cited for every violation he could think of, charged with making false statements and who knows what else. You may beat the rap but it costs you a small fortune in legal fees. Do you really win in that situation?

I think you did the right thing being honest and you came away on top. A talk with a supervisor from that department couldn't hurt, it may shed some light on why the deputy was so nervous, but "complaints" when you weren't issued a ticket can be taken the wrong way. If you frequent the area, next time you won't be cut any slack.

Just my own thoughts...

These are sound thoughts. Thank you for the level headed view. My primary concern was getting back on the road and I acknowledge that the legalities are often something sorted out on forums and in courts. I was out of my comfort zone and did not have time to think of clever answers so I answered directly and truthfully. I chose not to risk possible arrest and state level child abduction. That said, are these acceptable fears for a citizen committing a speeding violation in the absence of any other criminal record?

I do respect the dangers a traffic stop may present to an officer of the law. I can even understand being disarmed, but going on to disarm the passenger seems irregular. My primary issue is with the disarmament of my passenger, etc.

Why wouldn't they need a warrant to search a passenger who has committed no violation and there is no reasonable suspicion of contraband, drugs, alcohol, or anything but firearms carried within the guidelines set forth in state law?

As you noted, they did appear nervous, and I tried to present myself as calm and professional. At the end of the day things worked out ok for me but it seemed very tense. I do appreciate the partner engaging in small talk and that may have defused the situation to some degree.

Officers constantly stating that lack of compliance means two .40's pointed center of mass at me was threatening and an unnecessary escalation, from my perspective.

You'll note my report is objective and despite my questions I encourage continued discussion of the initial event and analysis of my behavior, the officers behavior, and the rights of drivers and passengers during traffic stops in Florida.

 

[brboyer]

[snip]

Seems like in this case I would have been pat down and then had weapons draw on me and then cited and/or further detained. At least, that's what I was led to believe.

Firstly, LEO need PC that you are armed and presently dangerous (or RAS that a crime has/is/will immediately be committed) to perform a pat down for weapons.

I'm confused about the rights of the passenger. There doesn't seem to be justification here to force a passenger to exit the vehicle.

LEO have wide latitude when conducting traffic stops under the guise of "Officer Safety".

What gives the officer a right to disarm me and my passenger during a traffic stop for speeding when both of us are permit holders with no records?

There is quite a bit of argument on the applicable Supreme Court decisions surrounding the authority to disarm folks. It will go on for years....

Is it a crime to not disclose that there is a firearm when asked directly?

Nope. If it is not material to the investigation of a crime. A lawfully possessed firearm is not relevant to the speeding infraction.

Both of these criteria are true.

The vast overwhelming majority of patrol officers do not have access, nor an automated lookup, to information stored in FCIC from their cars.

My primary issue is with the disarmament of my passenger, etc.

Do you not see the officer's concerns here? You told him there was an armed individual in the car - who at that point was a complete unknown to him (despite your proclamation that she had a CWFL). Now they were faced with two armed unknowns (at least till they checked you out).

Why wouldn't they need a warrant to search a passenger

I said they would be well within their authority to have the passenger exit. Failure to do so is a crime and then it would be within their authority to forcibly remove her. Then they can search incident to arrest. But this was not a search, your wife volunteered the firearm to the LEO.

Officers constantly stating that lack of compliance means two .40's pointed center of mass at me was threatening and an unnecessary escalation, from my perspective.

As I said before, it was either an intimidation tactic, an honest warning to help prevent you from getting shot by another jumpy LEO in the future, or a case of "no one should have guns but the police".

 

[LawScholar]

Typical overbearing B.S. from alleged professional law enforcement.

Wonder why so many average citizens have little respect for police?

Give a guy a leather belt and watch him puff up like a peacock.

Typical.

Give a guy a keyboard, broadband, and anonymity and he'll get pretty puffy too.

Good grief, Che Guevara, the officer was nervous and a touch unprofessional. Last I checked no one was falsely imprisoned, beaten, or even cited for the instigating violation.

People have little respect for police because we're an entitled, fat country where nobody can admit their fault, so every ticket and arrest nets a guy loudly mouthing off in a bar or on Facebook about those "pig cops".

First world problems...

OP, this post was not directed primarily at you. The officer should have chilled a bit. My point is mostly directed at Auf's college-protestor style overgeneralization and denigration of police for what was, in perspective, a very minor incident.

 

[Tony_the_tiger]

Thanks for the input, brboyer and other commentators. I absolutely can see the perspective of the officers here. Perhaps something had shaken them up earlier in the day. I do not envy their jobs, risks, salaries, or duties that bring them into conduct with lawfully armed citizens from The High Road (and even worse!). That said, I do feel like the events following the stop were slightly irregular and I hope this story has educational value for visitors here.

Lawscholar, I'd like to clarify that the purpose of this thread is not to berate the officers involved but rather to promote discussion about a personal event at the intersection of private transport, public law enforcement, and firearms.

 

[gatorjames85]

No, but they could forcefully enter the vehicle and extract the passenger for refusal to exit, then arrest them for "Resisting officer without violence to his or her person.", and/or "refuse to comply with any lawful order or direction of any law enforcement officer"

As I posted above, an unlawful command is a defense to a RWOV charge. That doesn't mean that you won't get arrested and spend a few hours in jail.

treated with respect

I wouldn't feel that I had been treated respectfully if I had been told repeatedly about guns being drawn on me, when I had done everything in my power to be cooperative.

If it is not material to the investigation of a crime.

That is not the applicable standard. You have to resist/oppose/obstruct an officer who is engaged in the lawful execution of a legal duty/process. This does not necessarily mean the investigation of a crime. It could be serving a warrant, serving a subpoena or even directing traffic. Whether this officer had lawful authority to issue commands to the passenger seems dubious to me.

Turns out I don't know my rights in this situation.

I am sending you my email via pm.

 

[N003k]

Which law would that be?

Tends to fall under something like Florida's Title XLVI Crimes Section 843.01

"Whoever shall resist, obstruct, or oppose any officer as defined in s. 943.10(1), (2), (3), (6), (7), (8), or (9); member of the Parole Commission or any administrative aide or supervisor employed by the commission; county probation officer; parole and probation supervisor; personnel or representative of the Department of Law Enforcement; or other person legally authorized to execute process in the execution of legal process or in the lawful execution of any legal duty, without offering or doing violence to the person of the officer, shall be guilty of a misdemeanor of the first degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or s. 775.083."

Whether or not it is material to the obvious incident is a moot point. Being a citizen that was pulled over, you may think it's just for speeding, but they may very well have had a shooting in the area with a suspect vehicle that matches yours. They may have seen something that aroused their suspicion, and if they can think of any single reason they want to and claim they were investigating a crime, then while you can REFUSE to answer a question, you had better not LIE to them. Because I guarantee, if not obstruction, they WILL find something to charge you under.

In this case, all it would take to be caught in the lie is the officer doing a perfectly legal pat-down for his 'safety'. Like I said, no law saying you have to answer, but they'll get you on obstruction if you lie and they catch you.

 

[gatorjames85]

there is actually a crime of false info to a LEO in Florida. I will look up the statute number later if I remember. Better to just not say anything than to lie.

 

[N003k]

Agreed Gator, not sure if brboyer is just trying to play devils advocate, or if he really thinks you wont be arrested and successfully prosecuted should they chose to take it to court for lying to a police officer. Whether one agrees with the laws and their interpretations or not, the system we currently have is the system we currently have, and I'm sure not going to try to take a case over an obstruction charge from lying to an officer to SCOTUS...

It's simple, tell the truth or decline to answer, lying is always going to be a bad idea though.

 

[V1ROT8]

Do not care what LEO make. Cannot be enough. That said there is much to this story that we will probably never know.

 

[Sam1911]

Incorrect. FCIC is only accessible from terminals at dispatch, not from patrol vehicles.

brboyer, What was incorrect about what I said? An officer pulling up behind my vehicle (from PA) would have no possible way to know that I am a CCW/LCTF holder.

 

[floorit76]

I was involver in something similar a few years ago, although unarmed, and on a motorcycle. The officer aggresively questioned my wife because she didn't look at him while he was talking to me. He accused her of "hiding" from him. I had to ask the officer for the ticket to get him back on track. It was a county PD in a very rural area, where we lived. I swore to myself then that I would never agian let something like that go without a complaint to his superior. We were young at the time, and grateful for a "warning". Looking back, I should have complained either way. I imagine that if you don't, you too will eventually come to regret that decision.

 

[mdauben]

would appreciate your perspectives on the situation, my behavior, the officers behavior, and any insight into the legality of firearms during traffic stops in Florida.

Personally, I think you handled the situation about as well as you could but I seriously question at least the first LEOs professionalism and procedures. I'm not a "cop hater" and I realize that most LEOs are professional and have an honest desire to serve the public. That does not mean that when one of them makes a mistake they get a free pass.

I do agree with one of the previous posters, even though you don't have an obligation to volunteer CCW info, if asked "are you carrying", to actually lie about it would be a huge mistake IMO.

Edit: Almost forgot. You should definitely report those two to the relevant contact at their agency. Their behavior was inappropriate (based on the information provided), as you might have guessed.

I would totally agree with this. Don't make a huge deal of it, don't rant and whine, but calmly and clearly explain your concerns about the officer's behavior. Perhaps a letter to the police chief/sheriff with a copy to the local mayor/city council/county board?

FWIW, the FHP training bulletin for dealing with concealed weapons is here:

This really bothers me, as it basically gives officers carte blanche in handling CCW holders in the name of "officer safety". IMO suggesting that officers routinly disarm law abiding citizens and handle and unload often unfamiliar guns, is an invitation to an AD. Everyone is much better served by leaving the gun holstered and untouched, while the citizen simply keeps his hands in plain sight.

While I agree that LEOs have every right to take reasonable precautions for their safety, the idea that their safety is "paramount" is patently false. If their safety was the most important consideration, they would be incapable of doing their jobs. Being an LEO is always going to involve accepting some element of risk. I don't think that their safety justifies harassing law abiding citizens going about their business, even if they are involved in minor traffic infractions.

 

[dprice3844444]

Incorrect. FCIC is only accessible from terminals at dispatch, not from patrol vehicles.

depending on the agency,a majority of them,have computer access like dispatch does in their vehicles.also,depending on how the state computer system is set up,ccw issuance may show up on all computer inquieries done on the subject.

 

[oneounceload]

Alachua County Sheriffs.

You weren't speeding through Waldo, were you? Their little city cops, (along with Starke and Lawtey) are notorious speed traps.

If it was actual sheriff, must have been a newbie........

Do you have any type of gun stickers on the rear or the Browning Buckmark or similar?

 

[brboyer]

brboyer, What was incorrect about what I said? An officer pulling up behind my vehicle (from PA) would have no possible way to know that I am a CCW/LCTF holder.

Your post seemed to agree with the poster when he stated that one's CWFL status was routinely available when an officer runs a tag.

I now see that you indicated that it it was possible it would only be for Florida tag and the driver being the registered owner of the vehicle.

Just to clarify, in Florida, the CWFL database is linked to FCIC, which is generally only accessible at police dispatch centers and not in patrol cars -with a few limited exceptions.

 

[brboyer]

depending on the agency,a majority of them,have computer access like dispatch does in their vehicles.also,depending on how the state computer system is set up,ccw issuance may show up on all computer inquieries done on the subject.

See my response above. Patrol cars do not have direct access to the CWFL database. They must call into dispatch to check status.

 

[hermannr]

I believe the proper answer, armed or not, to "are you armed?" is "I have nothing illegal". In your car, "There is nothing illegal in the car". That is all they need to know. you do not need to lie and say no, or yes.

LE does not have the right to run the numbers on your firearm without reasonable suspicion that 1: you have committed a crime, 2: you are committing a crime or 3: the gun is stolen.

I think you would do well to file a formal complaint with your sheriff's office...especially with the seizure of your wife's weapon. That was totally uncalled for.

Next time keep the speed down...I know, coming out of town here it goes from 25 to 35 to 60 also, all in about a 1/2 mile and it is hard not to "anticipate" that 60 zone by a few hundred feet, but it is worth the effort.

 

[the_skunk]

It's common sense ton keep the driver in the car. Walk up behind a cop sitting in his car - the cop will soil himself.

But you did the right thing. A civilian will never win in an arguement with a cop. Better to play the "Yes Sir, No Sir" that aggravate, and possibly escalate a situation.

 

[Bovice]

You don't have to tell them anything about weapons. The cop disarming your wife broke the rules of the game. At that point, they're the criminal, not you. Don't let them get away with that.

There are a lot of dirty cops in Florida. Beware.